OK I'm going to do it: THAT'S RIGHT I'M BUYING A POPCHARGER (and I'm not even a newb)
09-27-2006, 04:16 PM
#81
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Ok. I have a Nismo Intake installed. I ran a dyno on Saturday and the guy with the popcharger had more HP than me. Is the Tube too long or what? Also if I converted to Short Ram with a heat shield would that help me gain more HP? Would an air duct color matched on the bumper look ugly? I ask alot of questions.
09-27-2006, 04:44 PM
#82
Originally Posted by Biochem7
what about the stock airbox. Can you do a comparison?
Ok. I have a Nismo Intake installed. I ran a dyno on Saturday and the guy with the popcharger had more HP than me. Is the Tube too long or what? Also if I converted to Short Ram with a heat shield would that help me gain more HP? Would an air duct color matched on the bumper look ugly? I ask alot of questions.
09-27-2006, 05:08 PM
#83
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Originally Posted by Wired 24/7
What do you think the "before" and "after" means
I've heard nothing but bad things about long tube intakes...
I've heard nothing but bad things about long tube intakes...
09-27-2006, 06:44 PM
#84
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I recently swapped my K&N intake (short tube) back to stock and the butt dyno feels like I'm getting more out of her... I'm going to play around with a few combinations and see what I come up with... wish I had expensive toys to prove myself right... 
Good info on the popcharger btw.
Good info on the popcharger btw.
09-27-2006, 08:52 PM
#85
Mike,
I'm surprised to see air mass flow rate increased across the board. If the velocity stack flows better (and I know it does) the difference should only really become apparent at higher RPMs.
At low RPM's they should both flow the same because there is essentially no pressure drop across either. So seeing a increase across the board makes me 2nd guess the results. I'm not saying that it is wrong, but could you repeat the test but this time start with the PC as the baseline then install the stock air box.
If you install the stock air box and see the flow rate go down, then it validates the earlier results.
If air flow rate goes down, it should only go down as you appoach redline. The delta flow rate should fit on a shallow exponential curve.
Also check the stock wideband sensor and relative injector EPW results. Lets see if the trend is consistant with the air flow readings.
If everything is consistant it will lock down the change in flow rate conclusion.
EDIT: Also monitor cam angles to make sure the ECU isn't playing games with flow rates by other means.
I'm surprised to see air mass flow rate increased across the board. If the velocity stack flows better (and I know it does) the difference should only really become apparent at higher RPMs.
At low RPM's they should both flow the same because there is essentially no pressure drop across either. So seeing a increase across the board makes me 2nd guess the results. I'm not saying that it is wrong, but could you repeat the test but this time start with the PC as the baseline then install the stock air box.
If you install the stock air box and see the flow rate go down, then it validates the earlier results.
If air flow rate goes down, it should only go down as you appoach redline. The delta flow rate should fit on a shallow exponential curve.
Also check the stock wideband sensor and relative injector EPW results. Lets see if the trend is consistant with the air flow readings.
If everything is consistant it will lock down the change in flow rate conclusion.
EDIT: Also monitor cam angles to make sure the ECU isn't playing games with flow rates by other means.
Last edited by Hydrazine; 09-27-2006 at 08:56 PM.
09-27-2006, 09:28 PM
#87
Originally Posted by Hydrazine
Mike,
I'm surprised to see air mass flow rate increased across the board. If the velocity stack flows better (and I know it does) the difference should only really become apparent at higher RPMs.
At low RPM's they should both flow the same because there is essentially no pressure drop across either. So seeing a increase across the board makes me 2nd guess the results. I'm not saying that it is wrong, but could you repeat the test but this time start with the PC as the baseline then install the stock air box.
If you install the stock air box and see the flow rate go down, then it validates the earlier results.
If air flow rate goes down, it should only go down as you appoach redline. The delta flow rate should fit on a shallow exponential curve.
Also check the stock wideband sensor and relative injector EPW results. Lets see if the trend is consistant with the air flow readings.
If everything is consistant it will lock down the change in flow rate conclusion.
EDIT: Also monitor cam angles to make sure the ECU isn't playing games with flow rates by other means.
I'm surprised to see air mass flow rate increased across the board. If the velocity stack flows better (and I know it does) the difference should only really become apparent at higher RPMs.
At low RPM's they should both flow the same because there is essentially no pressure drop across either. So seeing a increase across the board makes me 2nd guess the results. I'm not saying that it is wrong, but could you repeat the test but this time start with the PC as the baseline then install the stock air box.
If you install the stock air box and see the flow rate go down, then it validates the earlier results.
If air flow rate goes down, it should only go down as you appoach redline. The delta flow rate should fit on a shallow exponential curve.
Also check the stock wideband sensor and relative injector EPW results. Lets see if the trend is consistant with the air flow readings.
If everything is consistant it will lock down the change in flow rate conclusion.
EDIT: Also monitor cam angles to make sure the ECU isn't playing games with flow rates by other means.
I tried to pick the ones that matched up the best . To get these curves I normalized time on a 0,1 scale... probably not the best way of plotting now that I think about it...
I tried to plot MAF versus RPM but that gave me curves all over the place.
Most of the curves overlapped for the most part, but I haven't seen a MAF signal from the stock box beat the popcharger yet. For the most part, the popcharger seems at least as good as the stock box. I guess, except for the rapid heating issue.
I'm a little disappointed, I don't think I got enough data to draw accurate conclusions.
Thanks for your help Tony... I think you're right maybe I should discard this plot...
09-27-2006, 09:29 PM
#88
Originally Posted by Jes-Z
Why is that? With your engineering backround, do you have any idea why this is so? I'm probably gonna make a Nismo/Popcharger Setup.
09-27-2006, 09:55 PM
#89
Originally Posted by Wired 24/7
maybe I should discard this plot...
I believe you when you say its hard to get a consistant data set. I've seen enough of the same thing. It just happens.
If you put the stock box back on and see the same general trend, just describe your observations. No need to make perfect plots out of hay wire data. You are certaintly qualified to use engineering judgement.
09-27-2006, 11:14 PM
#90
Originally Posted by Hydrazine
No need to do that just yet. Its a valid data point untill something disproves it.
I believe you when you say its hard to get a consistant data set. I've seen enough of the same thing. It just happens.
If you put the stock box back on and see the same general trend, just describe your observations. No need to make perfect plots out of hay wire data. You are certaintly qualified to use engineering judgement.
I believe you when you say its hard to get a consistant data set. I've seen enough of the same thing. It just happens.
If you put the stock box back on and see the same general trend, just describe your observations. No need to make perfect plots out of hay wire data. You are certaintly qualified to use engineering judgement.
the plot is mostly for show.
I looked at peak MAF values and it looked like the popcharger was higher on average. Often stock box was about the same, but usually popcharger was a little higher.
09-28-2006, 08:35 AM
#92
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Originally Posted by Wired 24/7
the ironic thing is, if this were on a dyno it would be really nice to get consistent results, but i'm only interested in real world testing...
d'oh...
d'oh...
1) Initial off the line acceleration. There's almost a fractional bog. After 15mph, everything feels normal.
2) Tip-in throttle at speed seems fractionally delayed.
3) Tip-in 30-50% throttle at highway speed is initially laggy. With the stock or mostly intake setups, there is an instant surge of power. With the open airbox and POPs, there is a "dead spot" right when you push there throttle.
4) At a 4000-5000rpm, punch, the POPs feel much snappier in the initial lunge.
5) POPs always seem to create a general lag from idle to 4000rpms and then there's a surge in power.
I've felt this boggyness or lag is associated with intake air turbulence generated by the POP/open airbox in the lower rpms. The stock airbox does a good job at keeping the flow consistent at all rpms therefore the MAF can get a more accurate reading. Another advantage to the stock airbox is that it is in a sense a ram air system in that a column of air is built up speed therefore slightly pressurizing the box therefore improving laminar flow. That's what makes the stock airbox more responsive at tip-in. The POPs and every other style intake loose this pressurization effect and is why most POPs tend to feel flat in the lower rpms.
I've done the calculation on the G35s stock airbox (as have others) and it turns out the stock airbox can easily outflow the requirements of the NA engine, even one with the typicaly bolt-ons. The 350Z's setup is an even better design.
09-28-2006, 09:10 AM
#93
I did notice that at part throttle it feels like stock (I wouldn't say it feels worse)
at WOT it feels stronger. I definitely feel the "surge" especially in 1st gear upper RPM range.
Like when I floored it in 1st, it really surged once I hit about 5k rpm.
Maybe at part throttle it is less powerful than stock (not sure) but the difference at WOT makes it worthwhile it seems...
again if I could've had some better data I could make a better judgment.
Also it could be that the MREV2 is helping out a bit with flow at lower RPMS.
at WOT it feels stronger. I definitely feel the "surge" especially in 1st gear upper RPM range.
Like when I floored it in 1st, it really surged once I hit about 5k rpm.
Maybe at part throttle it is less powerful than stock (not sure) but the difference at WOT makes it worthwhile it seems...
again if I could've had some better data I could make a better judgment.
Also it could be that the MREV2 is helping out a bit with flow at lower RPMS.
09-28-2006, 02:16 PM
#94
Originally Posted by jondimellow
hey zQuickSilver-
do u have instructions on ure intake box? Looks pretty good.
do u have instructions on ure intake box? Looks pretty good.
No. The box was a one-off made out of a plastic container and the custom coupler was made out of some plumbing parts. I'm an industrial designer, so I can make almost anything. My goal was to create a less restrictive intake that mimicked the stock box, all for around $50 and my time of course. I did it for part experiment and part fun. Now I'm just enjoying it
I think what wired has done is pretty cool, interesting data...
Zquicksilver
Last edited by Zquicksilver; 09-28-2006 at 04:44 PM.
09-28-2006, 04:29 PM
#95
I just thought of something...
Maybe the stock airbox can be used with the JWT venturi ring... (which is really all the popcharger is...they only put a filter there because you need a filter...)
it should only be a slight modification now that I think about it. Maybe some dremel action and some silicone sealant / RTV could make it work. That would definitely be the best of both worlds.
I don't like that crappy heatshield much anyways...
Maybe the stock airbox can be used with the JWT venturi ring... (which is really all the popcharger is...they only put a filter there because you need a filter...)
it should only be a slight modification now that I think about it. Maybe some dremel action and some silicone sealant / RTV could make it work. That would definitely be the best of both worlds.
I don't like that crappy heatshield much anyways...
Last edited by Wired 24/7; 09-28-2006 at 04:31 PM.
09-28-2006, 04:41 PM
#96
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Go ahead and build this, collect some data, if it proves beneficial in reducing heat soak...then you can post the official work instructions so we can do this ourselves......
09-28-2006, 04:51 PM
#97
Originally Posted by ZLadie2000
Go ahead and build this, collect some data, if it proves beneficial in reducing heat soak...then you can post the official work instructions so we can do this ourselves......
But I can make anything fit with enough RTV, duct tape, and zip ties
09-28-2006, 04:57 PM
#99
Originally Posted by Chebosto
hm.. did you reset the ecu after the install of the pop charger? or before you took the data for baseline?
But during logging, no resets
09-28-2006, 06:44 PM
#100
UPDATE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I looked at the peak MAF values for stock box/popcharger during the most recent 8 WOT runs that I did before/after install.
I put the values in order only for comparison. All intake temperatures during these runs were between 17 and 20C
As you can see, the stock box DOES beat the popcharger sometimes. However, on average, the popcharger shows a higher peak MAF value.
Hope this proves useful.
I looked at the peak MAF values for stock box/popcharger during the most recent 8 WOT runs that I did before/after install.
I put the values in order only for comparison. All intake temperatures during these runs were between 17 and 20C
As you can see, the stock box DOES beat the popcharger sometimes. However, on average, the popcharger shows a higher peak MAF value.
Hope this proves useful.