Hydrazine

iTrader: (53)

You are wrong Adam. The results show clearly and consistantly on the dyno. This is an objective measurement of fact.

As a dyno owner you should already know this. If you don't, you aren't doing your job. ...Or you don't want people to know the true dyno results.

You are saying you have no 1/4 mile evidence to support your "voice of reason" so why bring it up?
Dont try to bamboozle anyone with non-evidence evidence.


Wrong again Adam. In your own words... You said your anecdotal evidence pertained to the amount of K&N filters sold "relative to the amount of recharge kits we sell." Dont spin off false tangents.

Good for your single data point.


At best, what you are writing here is anecdote and conjecture. You are equivocating? Implying the stock paper filter is inherently no better than an aftermarket air cleaner? The assertion is misleading, rediculous and genuinly false. Stock paper filters and aftermarket filters do not clean equally. Not by a long shot. And its obvious.

You should already know this. And I know you do.


Wrong again Adam. You post anecdote, speculation, misinformation and conjecture. Apply thoes descriptions to yourself.

I posted observations of fact based on objective dyno data and countless observed data points. IE a statistical observation.

Do you know what anecdotal evidence is?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anecdotal_evidence

Dont publicly mislead people to start or engage an arguement. There is no room for that. Particularly as a vendor.

shadykilla717

iTrader: (2)

I just want to say as the thread starter. This is EXACTLY what I wanted. Weather either one is right and the other wrong. I feel this is giving a perfect arguement towards what people NEED to know. Not just well this company is popular so this is better. Or other cars use this so its better. Coming from the Honda world. I can clearly say EVERYONE gets an aftermarket intake as there first mod. N this is something that I NEVER encountered on the honda forums. Something such as which intake is better and why. The ONLY arguement you get on honda forums is that wit long tubes you get water sucked into theintakes. And short tubes you get heat soak. And its a decision of which you'd rather have. And how stock intakes are crap. Maybe it's the different setups in hondas to say 350's. Or better knowledgeable people on here. Regardless the facts giving make someone who is looking into intakes think alittle bit more about the purchase. But there is soooo many theories it kinda makes it hard to choose as well. Everyone has an argument to why which one is better. IMO I feel a long tube that ends sumwhere that the cold air is directly distributed such as the same action of an intercooler is best. Given you clean the filter. I myself can't see why that would not be the best choice. Or ANY intake that does that similar thing. If it goes sumhow directly to outside the car to directly get the air. Then it's doing its purpose. I've known short tubes to just sit in the engine bay and confuses me how it serves a purpose when you get no true air flow into it.

Z1 Performance

iTrader: (564)

Tony - with all due respect, a car sitting stationary on a dyno is not a very good, nor reliable indicator for whether an intake adds horsepower or not. You're not going to convince me that a car sitting in place with its hood open, is going to give any accurate info as to whether an intake is adding power or not. A quarter mile test absolutely will, and is without question. The final mph achieved in a given distance relative to weight is clear evidence of horsepower gained or lost. As a vendor, I could very easily say that intakes always add hp without any downsides - I am NOT saying that at all, and in fact, have gone on record many times that I feel just the opposite. Intakes, IMHO, are the LEAST important mod one can do to these cars, mine included. If you think an intake will show its worth, or lack thereof on a dyno, then you're free to think that way. My opinion differs. No harm, no foul.

What I wrote with respect to filters and cleaner kits is that perhaps the reason you see dirty plenums is due to dirty filters, so not sure why you are harping on that. All I am doing is offering a potential, or partial explanation. I thought I was quite clear but perhaps you misunderstood, or perhaps I was not as clear as I could have been. Alot of people buy cleanable filters and intakes that use cleanable filters - our sales figures show not everyone who buys one buys the filter recharge kit needed to keep the filter in 100% condition. A dirty filter cannot possibly do its job, in terms of flow or filtration. Once again, so there are no misunderstandings, what I said, is simply that my own motor has never shown any sludge, grime, or anything of the sort. My intake takes air directly from the front bumper area (via a duct right under where the front plate would go), the air is fed to the filter, which sits in a rounded carbon box, and from there it passes through the MAF housing and into the plenum. However, I clean my filter frequently, precisely because of how my setup ingests air, and because I drive the car in all sorts of conditions. I think the fact that I keep the filter clean is why the rest of my motor has been so clean. I know the filter is working because of all the grime and grit that comes out of it when I clean it. Conversely, I've never had any idle issues, never had to clean the MAF, or the throttle body, or have had any sort of deposits in the plenum. That tells me the filter is doing exactly what it should be doing.

Have you sat down and done a scientific tests to show a stock filter filters better than an aftermarket? I haven't - and I'd never try to tell someone that one works better nor worse than another without such an independant test having been done. All I can tell you is what I've seen on my motor, and customer motors, and it just so happens to contradict what you've seen. I don't have a problem with that, not sure why you do. As I said, operating conditions (environment), and the cleanliness (or lack thereof) of the filter itself, are a critical factor that cannot merely be overlooked or not taken into consideration. Again, if you want to think differently, you're free to do so.

crg914

iTrader: (5)

I have to point out the flawed logic in this. Why would any vendor advise his potential consumers against buying a product that he sells and could make money off of? To me, that sounds like a honest businessman.

Furthermore, a 2-3hp gain from an intake on a dyno proves nothing. I have made back to back pulls on previous cars with _no components changed and no tuning_ and seen a bigger difference than that.

I would also like to point out that dyno numbers can _EASILY_ be skewed and manipulated without the average consumer knowing. Smoothing, Correction, etc. The only dyno results I completely trust are the ones I know have been done objectively firsthand. The only ones I semi-trust are ones done by third party testers with nothing to gain/lose that also appear objective. Anyone with some concern as to where there money goes would, I think, do the same.

Just my $.02

Hydrazine

iTrader: (53)

Hi Shadykilla,

Before I did a whole lot of dyno testing and thermal measurements I would totally agree with you. That is what intuition would lead any reasonable person to.

As far as long tube Vs short tube, I "speculate" the decrease in performance is due to out of phase acoustic resonances. I don't think the loss is due simple flow resistance. I say this because of the peak/dip/peak/dip nature of the long tube CAI effect. When you see the results on a dyno plot, it looks like its aliasing in and out of phase with the engine over the RPM range. But I havn't gone much farther into why is loses 2-3 HP. I only know that is what the long tube CAI's do on the VQ.

And as far as air inlet temperature, you are right. It makes a big difference on this engine. A short ram intake isn't necessarily bad, but it really needs a good heat shield.

If the filter is hanging naked in the 150'F engine compartment, it will easily kill 15+ HP. I've measured the effect of air inlet temperature on HP and its substantial.

As for dynamic pressure effects, Dynamic pressure won't really make a difference unless the intake is specially designed to take advantage of it and even then, the car will need to be moving at 80+ miles an hour to begin to have any real effect.

Hydrazine

iTrader: (53)

Exactly.

Wired 24/7

iTrader: (2)

you believe what Stealin' tells you?

crg914

iTrader: (5)

I was agreeing with Adam. You're agreeing with me? Interesting.

Wired 24/7

iTrader: (2)

I can vouch for this 100%, I have seen the dynos and know for fact that these cars have a HUGE hp drop off with increased intake air temperature

I agree with everything Tony has said on this issue, but I also agree with Adam that dynos are not the best way to test an intake's performance.

Then again, I would only trust 1/4 mile results from a driver who can consistently trap +/- 1mph over 4-5 runs

Hydrazine

iTrader: (53)

I know you were, but the way you wrote your post was not clear.

But I otherwise agree about everything else you wrote.

Here is why.

"Why would any vendor advise his potential consumers against buying a product that he sells and could make money off of? To me, that sounds like a honest businessman."

I agree. I don't sell CAI's at all and I have nothing to gain or lose if everyone knows what they do. OTOH Adam does sell them.

"Furthermore, a 2-3hp gain from an intake on a dyno proves nothing. I have made back to back pulls on previous cars with _no components changed and no tuning_ and seen a bigger difference than that."

I completely agree. When I do research on the dyno I have to deal with the problem of repeatability. Its a real problem. But it can be dealt with and you can get enough resolution to see it. There is random error and there is clearly seen patterns within the plots. And its not just me saying the long tube CAI's LOSE 2-3 HP. There are pre/post dyno plots all over this board showing long tube CAI's losing power.

I would also like to point out that dyno numbers can _EASILY_ be skewed and manipulated without the average consumer knowing. Smoothing, Correction, etc. The only dyno results I completely trust are the ones I know have been done objectively firsthand. The only ones I semi-trust are ones done by third party testers with nothing to gain/lose that also appear objective. Anyone with some concern as to where there money goes would, I think, do the same.
Just my $.02

I couldn't agree more.
In addition to my own independant testing. There have been a lot of people who dynod the same results.

There are a whole lot of tuners here on MY350Z.com who found the same. Alot. And its actually old news.

And to be totally, completely honest with you, I HATE TELLING PEOPLE LONG TUBE CAI'S LOSE POWER. It sucks being the bearer of bad news. Especially when it is so throughly analyzed and proven.

I have a ton of friends here that I know are let down when I say there is a loss of power from long tube CAI's. That's why I hate saying it. If anything, its a detriment to me to say it. I have nothing to gain and I know it bums people out.

But here I am, an independant engineer posting the throughly tested truth about CAI's.

crg914

iTrader: (5)

I apologize for the clarity problem in my post. I don't disagree with anything you just posted, however the statement about results being proven on the dyno as fact I think is misleading. That is what stemmed my reference to more change with same parts/tune pulls. I took that statement to mean 2-3hp gains were substantiated on a dyno and should be considered fact, which I do not agree with. If you meant it otherwise, disregard my argument.

As far as selling the intakes, I was actually complimenting Adam for not pushing a product he sells when he knows it doesn't make power. Making available for people who want it for aesthetic/auditory purposes, but not marketing it a a 'performance' mod is an ethical thing to do IMHO. I have dealt with Adam before when purchasing parts for my evo, which is another reason I will defend him. He has always given honest advice, and been very willing to help.

I am unfamiliar with you and your company but have made no rash judgements and will be searching to see what you are all about.

No disrespect intended and hopefully nothing came off that way. Just a healthy discussion between two adults, which is good for education of readers without the petty, underhanded methods some members resort to.

-Cheers

Hydrazine

iTrader: (53)

Right on.

Ive been on this board a long time and yes, sometimes it can get downright trecherous. Sometimes people like to fight for nothing.

As a vendor, I know to stay real damn straight because there are hair trigger machine guns all over the place that will go off on the drop of a dime.

Nobody is spared here.

shadykilla717

iTrader: (2)

I feel as it has been said that dyno pulls to show a 2-3 hp gain is innacurate it still is relevant. You probly do get more gain when your actually on the road in REAL weather conditions. A dyno pull is the least of conditions. Your standing still with wind.. Ok so say its colder out. Your gonna get more then 2-3. If your going fast and it might be windy. Your gonna get more then 2-3. Regardless you will get that 2-3 hp gain. That to me is just the bare minimum you can expect. Also. The more opening or say more direct the air is to the intake itself.. The more of that effect will be appearing. If you have a short tube which is going towards more of an opening or vented spot. As well as a veerrry good heat sheild. A short tube seems to be the way to go. In a sense you would get what a long tube cai is advertised to get. Just without the loooongg path the air needs to travel.

So shouldn't it be argued a long tube cai is a huuuge negative and if u are to go aftermarket with the intakes that a short tubed sri is the one to do? Granted it dsn't sit right next to the motor with a crappy heat sheild..

Also a ques to ask is. Shouldn't a stock intake and a sri give up the same heat?? Or would a sri be better because it should resist heat more than a stock intake especially with a heat sheild??

gothchick

iTrader: (12)

Yep, this is why I got rid of my poop charger and went back to the stock airbox + dropin. I would get so pissed off at the amount of whp I was losing after sitting at a stop light for a couple minutes, etc.

shadykilla717

iTrader: (2)

Basically why there is a heat sheild. ALSO why stock intakes are built how they are.. I mean all car companies don't make stock intakes the same for nothing....

gothchick

iTrader: (12)

That aluminum heat shield that comes with the poop charger probably conducts more heat to the intake than it shields. Lol. Junk.

Edit: Not to mention it isn't even sealed.

Hydrazine

iTrader: (53)

I'm not completely clear on what you said in the first paragraph but in the second paragraph:
I wouldn't say a long tube CAI is a huge negative. That would be a distortion to say it was. Its a 2-3 HP loss and I really don't think it makes a difference at 0 or 100MPH. IMO the performance will be the same at any speed. The vast majority of long tube CAI's have their inlet between the wheelwell and bumper. The inlet location isn't conducive to dynamic pressure effects.

One thing it clearly does is change the engine induction sound. It makes it clearly louder and deeper. This may be the most important reason for a lot of people. They also add a lot of bling!

Bling has value to a lot of people. Nothing wrong with bling.

Hydrazine

iTrader: (53)

The pop charger heat shield works well at speed but only marginally when stoped at a light.

OTOH, the stock intake is actually designed quite well. The Nissan engineers did good here. The stock box completely segregates inside air from outside air. There is some heat soak through the stock plastic box, but it otherwise does a good job of getting only air from in front of the radiator.

shadykilla717

iTrader: (2)

What I meant in that first paragraph was that dyno shows proven gains. Yet everyone is trying to say the dyno dsn't show accurate gains. And that the street driving or racing will show what kind of gains the intake really produces. So if thats true that the dyno won't show as much gain as you really should see from real driving. Then wouldn't the dyno show that you will atleast get 2-3 hp out of an intake no matter what??

Hydrazine

iTrader: (53)

Hmmm. IDK off hand. I could go through a rhoV^2/2G dynamic pressure equations and some PV=NRT stuff to find theoretical values but its still not going to amount to much.

But OK, I think I know what you are getting at now.

The stock air box and some short ram intakes can utilize dynamic pressure whereas the typical long tube CAI does not?

The short rams statically gains 2-3 HP and may hypothetically gain 2-3 more at high velocity? totalling a gain of 4-6HP?
Vs
The long tube loses 2-3 statically and gains nothing at speed? Totalling a loss of 2-3 HP under any condition?

Interesting point.... If I'm understanding correctly.

---
But with a reality check, unless you are going really, really fast the dynamic pressure won't do much.