New True Dual exhaust for $489: Tsudo Performance
08-05-2008, 04:42 AM
#41
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OK, I was going to just let this pass by without comment ... but I can't take it any more.
My first job out of college in 1990 was to work as an engineer for an aftermarket exhaust manufacturer. During my 8 years there, I became extremely familiar with how we would R&D new systems for OE replacement and for the performance line.
If our competition already had a design out there, we would purchase it. Then we would procure a vehicle from a local dealership for 1 or 2 days. When the vehicle would come in, we had a few hours to come up with a few rough design muffler internal designs and get the prototype shop to quickly make them. (Mostly using components that are already made up like partitions, perf tubes, hemholtz chambers, etc...)
With about 3-4 different proto muffler cans (ranging the spectrum in tuning capabilities and cost) we would take a baseline exhaust measurement. (Using SAE spec J1169). Using a sound pressure meter (B&K or Ono Sokki) we would perform a half meter static test to gage where the OE exhaust was in relationship to the legal limit of 95dB. From this we would have an idea where the peaks are so we could build in countermeasures to these periods.
Then we take a subjective test drive noting droans, booming noises and other NVH issues. The we bring the car back to the proto shop.
The OE system is removed and the competitor's system is installed. The process starts all over again. While the engineer is measuring sound and doing his subjective tests, the OE system is placed on the SuperGage. (If I recall the name correctly.) Basicly it is a 3D measurement machine that locates flange holes, inlet position, bend locations and radii all the way to the outlet. (Giving 3D coordinates and bend data for the OE system.)
Using this data, a bend card is made for the CNC bender. New pipes are made to fit the proto mufflers and flanges and brackets are matched on a flange board of existing parts. If no flange exists, then we'd have to rig something till we could get one made.
With three or four proto mufflers, we'd do the tests all over again hopefully getting the sound right on one of the four guess designs we made. If there was a specific period, such as at 3500rpm, we could alter one of the proto designs later to take that droan out. (Adding a hemholtz tube or glass wrap on the perf tube.)
If we were lucky and got the sound we wanted, then that was it. Document the design, make the bend cards, build a fixture release the internal drawings and you were in production. Designed in 2-3 days with paperwork.
Did anyone remember reading about the dyno tests? Nope, they were never done. Why? Unless you have a very controlled environment and an engine dyno, you stood little chance of capturing HP changes correctly. A chassis dyno could be run on back to back passes and you wil not get the exact same HP reading. Changes in engine temperature, ambient temp, humidity, exhaust temp, etc... all can add up to minor changes in HP readings. It takes some time to change the exhaust so keeping the same conditions for a chassis dyno is very tough.
Exhaust does not add a lot of HP on it's own. Like everything else, it's part of a total package. You upgrade the intake or go F/I, then you need free flowing exhaust. Did the exhaust net you the HP on it's own? No. Not changing the exhaust on a new F/I setup will limit your HP. See what I'm saying on this?
The second company I worked for was to do OE designs for Toyota. I did the Sequoia, second gen Avalon, second gen Tundra, the RX330 and second gen Sienna. I also got to do two fun projects. The TRD exhaust for the Scion tC and the 2nd gen Tundra.
The engineering on these systems was much more involved. Even then, we used engine dynos for acoustic testing in full anechoic chambers. But still we did not let HP numbers drive the design. Again, HP is not a good repeatable measurement for A-B comparisons. Toyota would do the final HP on the car with all other components that affect it. This is why car companies do not release HP figures till the last minute. Just the ECU programming for emissions related issues can greatly change HP numbers. (The RX8 ran into this issue).
For those of you out there looking to change exhaust for HP, you're wasting time. Read all the marketing blubber you want, a net +5Hp gain is not noticed by the seat of your pants but by your head. Exhaust is the key to releasing horsepower through a combination of mods.
If you have no plans for other mods, then just go for whatever system sounds good, looks good or is easy on the wallet. The price Amuse wants for their exhaust is ironic considering their name. There is no justification for $1500 - $2000 exhaust. Not even in polished 304 stainless. There is not that much engineering in this. Trust me! Even with dyno tuning, these companies are charging what ever they think the market will pay.
Sorry for the book I wrote. Maybe one or two of you will actually read the whole thing.
So if you guys are wanting the X02 or Tsudo exhaust, go for it. The designs are pretty simple. Are they loud? You can not tell from a video camera or one YouTube video. Use your commen sense. More muffler volume (internal space not sound pressure), the more ability for tuning frequencies. The Stillen system uses two large oval mufflers in the rear. I would say this might be quieter than the HKS system. The X02 system with the branch tuner is nice to look at. If you like the sound, great. The branch tuner chamber on top of the muffler ... hilarious. I question what period they are trying to remove. The diameter of the branch tube is very large. This looks like marketing driving engineering. And the X02 just copied it probably without knowing why.
The Tsudo exhaust looks OK. The sound is fairly clean. Hard to tell from a video. For less than $500, it's worth taking the chance.
If you are F/I, I would lean to a Ti single exhaust. Keep it simple. $1000+ is reasonable for Titanium as it is a bear to work with and a rare material to come by in tubing. The weight savings is huge.
I hope this helps. If you have questions, feel free to PM me.
My first job out of college in 1990 was to work as an engineer for an aftermarket exhaust manufacturer. During my 8 years there, I became extremely familiar with how we would R&D new systems for OE replacement and for the performance line.
If our competition already had a design out there, we would purchase it. Then we would procure a vehicle from a local dealership for 1 or 2 days. When the vehicle would come in, we had a few hours to come up with a few rough design muffler internal designs and get the prototype shop to quickly make them. (Mostly using components that are already made up like partitions, perf tubes, hemholtz chambers, etc...)
With about 3-4 different proto muffler cans (ranging the spectrum in tuning capabilities and cost) we would take a baseline exhaust measurement. (Using SAE spec J1169). Using a sound pressure meter (B&K or Ono Sokki) we would perform a half meter static test to gage where the OE exhaust was in relationship to the legal limit of 95dB. From this we would have an idea where the peaks are so we could build in countermeasures to these periods.
Then we take a subjective test drive noting droans, booming noises and other NVH issues. The we bring the car back to the proto shop.
The OE system is removed and the competitor's system is installed. The process starts all over again. While the engineer is measuring sound and doing his subjective tests, the OE system is placed on the SuperGage. (If I recall the name correctly.) Basicly it is a 3D measurement machine that locates flange holes, inlet position, bend locations and radii all the way to the outlet. (Giving 3D coordinates and bend data for the OE system.)
Using this data, a bend card is made for the CNC bender. New pipes are made to fit the proto mufflers and flanges and brackets are matched on a flange board of existing parts. If no flange exists, then we'd have to rig something till we could get one made.
With three or four proto mufflers, we'd do the tests all over again hopefully getting the sound right on one of the four guess designs we made. If there was a specific period, such as at 3500rpm, we could alter one of the proto designs later to take that droan out. (Adding a hemholtz tube or glass wrap on the perf tube.)
If we were lucky and got the sound we wanted, then that was it. Document the design, make the bend cards, build a fixture release the internal drawings and you were in production. Designed in 2-3 days with paperwork.
Did anyone remember reading about the dyno tests? Nope, they were never done. Why? Unless you have a very controlled environment and an engine dyno, you stood little chance of capturing HP changes correctly. A chassis dyno could be run on back to back passes and you wil not get the exact same HP reading. Changes in engine temperature, ambient temp, humidity, exhaust temp, etc... all can add up to minor changes in HP readings. It takes some time to change the exhaust so keeping the same conditions for a chassis dyno is very tough.
Exhaust does not add a lot of HP on it's own. Like everything else, it's part of a total package. You upgrade the intake or go F/I, then you need free flowing exhaust. Did the exhaust net you the HP on it's own? No. Not changing the exhaust on a new F/I setup will limit your HP. See what I'm saying on this?
The second company I worked for was to do OE designs for Toyota. I did the Sequoia, second gen Avalon, second gen Tundra, the RX330 and second gen Sienna. I also got to do two fun projects. The TRD exhaust for the Scion tC and the 2nd gen Tundra.
The engineering on these systems was much more involved. Even then, we used engine dynos for acoustic testing in full anechoic chambers. But still we did not let HP numbers drive the design. Again, HP is not a good repeatable measurement for A-B comparisons. Toyota would do the final HP on the car with all other components that affect it. This is why car companies do not release HP figures till the last minute. Just the ECU programming for emissions related issues can greatly change HP numbers. (The RX8 ran into this issue).
For those of you out there looking to change exhaust for HP, you're wasting time. Read all the marketing blubber you want, a net +5Hp gain is not noticed by the seat of your pants but by your head. Exhaust is the key to releasing horsepower through a combination of mods.
If you have no plans for other mods, then just go for whatever system sounds good, looks good or is easy on the wallet. The price Amuse wants for their exhaust is ironic considering their name. There is no justification for $1500 - $2000 exhaust. Not even in polished 304 stainless. There is not that much engineering in this. Trust me! Even with dyno tuning, these companies are charging what ever they think the market will pay.
Sorry for the book I wrote. Maybe one or two of you will actually read the whole thing.
So if you guys are wanting the X02 or Tsudo exhaust, go for it. The designs are pretty simple. Are they loud? You can not tell from a video camera or one YouTube video. Use your commen sense. More muffler volume (internal space not sound pressure), the more ability for tuning frequencies. The Stillen system uses two large oval mufflers in the rear. I would say this might be quieter than the HKS system. The X02 system with the branch tuner is nice to look at. If you like the sound, great. The branch tuner chamber on top of the muffler ... hilarious. I question what period they are trying to remove. The diameter of the branch tube is very large. This looks like marketing driving engineering. And the X02 just copied it probably without knowing why.
The Tsudo exhaust looks OK. The sound is fairly clean. Hard to tell from a video. For less than $500, it's worth taking the chance.
If you are F/I, I would lean to a Ti single exhaust. Keep it simple. $1000+ is reasonable for Titanium as it is a bear to work with and a rare material to come by in tubing. The weight savings is huge.
I hope this helps. If you have questions, feel free to PM me.
08-05-2008, 04:52 AM
#42
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For the record, there is one thing that concerns me. The placement of the flex joints and lack of balance tube between left and right side.
The flex joints should be in nearly the same spot and orientation as the original. When the engine torques, this design twists the flex instead of bending it. I can see why this flex location would be cheaper to make. It won't hurt the car, just reduce flex life span.
The balance tube is inexpensive exhaust tuning. But it would drive up the cost of packaging since the inlet pipes would be locked together. If it means that much to you, add it yourself. You still saved a lot of money on the exhaust.
08-06-2008, 09:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Phreakdout
LMAO! I bet my wife that my long winded post would kill this thread. I'm up $20 now. 
info like this is whats needed more on this forum versus crappy flaming and post whoring...
-j
08-06-2008, 11:37 AM
#45
Originally Posted by Phreakdout
For the record, there is one thing that concerns me. The placement of the flex joints and lack of balance tube between left and right side.
The flex joints should be in nearly the same spot and orientation as the original. When the engine torques, this design twists the flex instead of bending it. I can see why this flex location would be cheaper to make. It won't hurt the car, just reduce flex life span.
The balance tube is inexpensive exhaust tuning. But it would drive up the cost of packaging since the inlet pipes would be locked together. If it means that much to you, add it yourself. You still saved a lot of money on the exhaust.
08-06-2008, 01:54 PM
#46
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I would love to hear it.
08-06-2008, 04:36 PM
#47
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Originally Posted by 2004Black350z
so dont buy
Unlike many posters, I'm not asking for anyone's opinion before I buy. I'll probably buy it What the heck, the price is pretty cheap. Even if the flex fails and I add a balance tube, I'm still ahead in cost.
And if I don't like it, post it up for sale.
08-06-2008, 05:56 PM
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Originally Posted by R-TuneZ
well i see it as such:
the name-brand companies spend a lot of time and money engineering the parts which they sell. it is unfair for companies that merely copy these designs to make profit on a product which they did not design (and probably did not even test). think about it this way... what if you were the owner of a company that designs and sells exhausts. how would you feel if another company was copying your design and selling it for half the price, effectively destroying your potential for profit. the company copying you does not have to make profit to cover the overhead of the R&D process, they can just charge for the material and production costs. it is very cheap to sit there and weld metal pipes together per someone else's design, but it is another thing to engineer an exhaust, test it, buy quality metal, and mass-produce it.
furthermore, you have the assurance, when buying from a name-brand company, that the materials used were quality and not the cheapest, lowest quality metals available. many no-name companies will use cheap materials and crappy welders in order to achieve a higher profit margin.
i mean, sure, cheaper is "better", but i do not mind spending the extra money to promote the health of a company that furnishes me with a good product.
the name-brand companies spend a lot of time and money engineering the parts which they sell. it is unfair for companies that merely copy these designs to make profit on a product which they did not design (and probably did not even test). think about it this way... what if you were the owner of a company that designs and sells exhausts. how would you feel if another company was copying your design and selling it for half the price, effectively destroying your potential for profit. the company copying you does not have to make profit to cover the overhead of the R&D process, they can just charge for the material and production costs. it is very cheap to sit there and weld metal pipes together per someone else's design, but it is another thing to engineer an exhaust, test it, buy quality metal, and mass-produce it.
furthermore, you have the assurance, when buying from a name-brand company, that the materials used were quality and not the cheapest, lowest quality metals available. many no-name companies will use cheap materials and crappy welders in order to achieve a higher profit margin.
i mean, sure, cheaper is "better", but i do not mind spending the extra money to promote the health of a company that furnishes me with a good product.
i dont kno about all that bec. listen to this me and my bud both have base modle 05 350z's I bought the authentic HKS exhuast and he bought the replica they both sound the same they both look the same and we both made the same power on the dyno but i spent $1200 and he spent $450 who do you think got the better deal tell you the trust i would rather have that $750 in my pocket then have HKS imprinted on my exhaust
08-06-2008, 06:04 PM
#49
Originally Posted by Phreakdout
LOL - I hear ya. I was just voicing some concerns. I didn't want to be a biased cheerleader for one design over another.
Unlike many posters, I'm not asking for anyone's opinion before I buy. I'll probably buy it What the heck, the price is pretty cheap. Even if the flex fails and I add a balance tube, I'm still ahead in cost.
And if I don't like it, post it up for sale.
Unlike many posters, I'm not asking for anyone's opinion before I buy. I'll probably buy it What the heck, the price is pretty cheap. Even if the flex fails and I add a balance tube, I'm still ahead in cost.
And if I don't like it, post it up for sale.
08-06-2008, 06:08 PM
#50
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Originally Posted by 350zFreak05
i dont kno about all that bec. listen to this me and my bud both have base modle 05 350z's I bought the authentic HKS exhuast and he bought the replica they both sound the same they both look the same and we both made the same power on the dyno but i spent $1200 and he spent $450 who do you think got the better deal tell you the trust i would rather have that $750 in my pocket then have HKS imprinted on my exhaust
08-06-2008, 06:20 PM
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Originally Posted by red_magic2000
^ Hey Freak05 thanks for your honest opinion, that should clarify a lot of debate going on here on the forum, bout these generic brands. And to be honest they're made of the same material, and honestly I also think you're just paying for the name. Most people justify the cost just cause of the brand, and if that makes them sleep better well more power to them, but don't put down other people who buy generic. So once again thanks for that honest opinion
yea n/p i mean im not gonna lie i am like some people and like to buy the name brand stuff bec. some people dont like buying "cheap" products but they really arnt, but after seeing that happin between me and him i would say there all the same if it makes you feel better buy the no name brand and spray paint your fav. company name on it
lol
08-06-2008, 08:33 PM
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Originally Posted by 2004Black350z
Nah I mean if I buy it r u sayin its gonna crack or break bc its cheap made or bc I don't put that flex extra piece in?
Will it fail? I am just wild-**** guessing based on other designs I've seen fail. Not having the two sides welded together will help their flex life. Perhaps that is why they skipped the balance tube.
I still think it's a safe buy. From what I can see, the TIG welds look clean. (Probably done by rotary welder and not by hand ... which is good.) I like the braces on the mufflers. (Nice idea using punched strip stock ... looks good)
Originally Posted by r_seng
Helped my friend install a Tsudo system on WRX. Fitment was and still is complete crap.
Originally Posted by 350zFreak05
i dont kno about all that bec. listen to this me and my bud both have base modle 05 350z's I bought the authentic HKS exhuast and he bought the replica they both sound the same they both look the same and we both made the same power on the dyno but i spent $1200 and he spent $450 who do you think got the better deal tell you the trust i would rather have that $750 in my pocket then have HKS imprinted on my exhaust
08-06-2008, 09:18 PM
#56
Phreakdout,
Thanks for the write-up. I actually read it all and it's very eye-opening to those of us that have always been curious. Like you said it's hard to base things on a YouTube video. One thing to remember is that he posted a comment on YouTube saying that he doesn't have stock cats. He could have any brand high-flow cats or test pipes, we don't know. For $500 it would be worth trying out. I may do it in the near future.
Thanks for the write-up. I actually read it all and it's very eye-opening to those of us that have always been curious. Like you said it's hard to base things on a YouTube video. One thing to remember is that he posted a comment on YouTube saying that he doesn't have stock cats. He could have any brand high-flow cats or test pipes, we don't know. For $500 it would be worth trying out. I may do it in the near future.
11-01-2008, 09:37 AM
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I just purchased this exhaust, it came with 3 gaskets missing and 6 nuts and bolts missing. the fitment was horrible, the pipes had to be heated and bent so it wouldnt rattle against the chasis. the hangers on the muffler were in the wrong position those had to be adjusted as well. the sound is ok not nice like the stock sound but not loud either. the car is easier to drive but I feel that Ive lost a bit of torque right where 3rd gear is, and thats when the Z really kicks in.
11-07-2008, 08:51 PM
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Funny...I just installed it on my Z...fit perfectly...all hardware was there...removed the stock exhaust and bolted on the new one in about an hour. No bending required and no rattles, but the two hangers on the mufflers (two farthest back) were slightly wider than they should be. Simple fix...bent them in slightly and now hangs perfectly straight and centered. I think it sounds great...not too loud...doesn't sound like fart cans on a Honda. Of course it does sound like a V8 either. But I am pleased...torque loss not sure . maybe slightly on the very low end...hard to tell really.
Edit: should have said "Of course it does NOT sound like a V8"
Edit: should have said "Of course it does NOT sound like a V8"
Last edited by Jekyl n Hyde; 11-10-2008 at 01:35 PM.