What's up with Cosworth plenums?
05-08-2008, 04:35 PM
#21
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Originally Posted by Z1 Performance
I'd respectfully disagree 
Different paths, but either can be a nightmare, or very rewarding, depending on a variety of factors
Different paths, but either can be a nightmare, or very rewarding, depending on a variety of factors
05-08-2008, 06:31 PM
#22
Originally Posted by IIQuickSilverII
and probably worthless for FI(backpresure), so whats your point ...its just the situation reversed.
The op's first post mentioned N/A setup, and so was the topic of "holy grail" mod.Having only bolt-ons, the Cosworth is a waste of $$$. I know, b/c I have it installed, dyno'd it, and had to get a custom osiris map on 100 octane to achieve the same power as the MD MREV2/spacer combo that was installed on the car before the Cosworth (while also gaining some on top).
The only reason I haven't sold it is b/c I have plans of F/I.
Last edited by jonnylaw; 05-08-2008 at 06:37 PM.
05-09-2008, 04:56 AM
#24
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Originally Posted by IIQuickSilverII
explain how teh testing Injected performed = hype 
+1 on cosworth flopping for not producing the product as demand
i agree, it really isnt worth modding NA other than 2,3 bolt-ons at best
+1 on cosworth flopping for not producing the product as demand
i agree, it really isnt worth modding NA other than 2,3 bolt-ons at best
05-09-2008, 06:16 AM
#25
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It clearly delivered substantial gains on numerous occassions to date. Hype would be a product that promises the sun, the moon and stars, and does not work as advertised. This is clearly not the case with this manifold. The problem is the "hype" was created by people who had no business considering it as a mod in the first place (such as those with minimal bolt on NA mods). It wasn't Cosworth who promised these gains, it was those very people who occupy this forum. Buying into artificial, self perpetuated hype is a different situation than a manufacturer making promises that fail to materialize IMHO. Cosworth didn't tout the manifold as the be all, end all mod for ANY Z/G owner...the people of this forum, who blindly follow whatever the "cool" item of the day is, did that to themselves. It's a natural thing really in the world of the aftermarket unfortunately. The results clearly have been there when this part was added to the right setup....the tests done to date by a variety of people, clearly indicate this. So far the only tests not yet done (at least for the benefit of the forum) are on a properly built NA setup. Part of the reason is that there are just so few of us out there (literally a handful), and the other reason is the manifold itself has unfortunately been in short supply since it's introduction.
Modding is never a zero sum game - mods always need to be carefully planned in order to yield the best results. Not every single mod compliments every other mod. Myself, and others, stated early on for example, that those with minimal bolt on mods, who wanted this manifold were really not going to see the benefits of it from a performance standpoint. That certainly didn't stop people from lining up the buy it.....they wanted to believe it was the second coming, but again, that was all self perpetuated by the forum at large. Just like I wouldn't recommend a set of Moton external resevoir coilovers to someone who drives their car to and from work everyday, or recommend a 4.08 final drive for someone with a 600 whp twin turbo setup, or a set of forged pistons/rods as the only mod, I wouldn't recommend this manifold to someone with a low boost FI setup, or someone who has the typical bolt on mods. For those people, a spacer is the better choice from a bang for the buck standpoint. For those who want this piece based on looks (and I am sure there are those people too), then again, that is their decision to make in the end.
The whole production delay issue is something altogether different. I am disappointed its taken so long for them to crank them out as well, as I wanted to try it on my own car. Such is life though...sometimes you just have to wait. Hopefully as time goes on, Cosworth will be able to get these pieces in the hands of those who want it, so that there are more tests done by shops/forum members.
Anyway, that's my take on it...ymmv
Modding is never a zero sum game - mods always need to be carefully planned in order to yield the best results. Not every single mod compliments every other mod. Myself, and others, stated early on for example, that those with minimal bolt on mods, who wanted this manifold were really not going to see the benefits of it from a performance standpoint. That certainly didn't stop people from lining up the buy it.....they wanted to believe it was the second coming, but again, that was all self perpetuated by the forum at large. Just like I wouldn't recommend a set of Moton external resevoir coilovers to someone who drives their car to and from work everyday, or recommend a 4.08 final drive for someone with a 600 whp twin turbo setup, or a set of forged pistons/rods as the only mod, I wouldn't recommend this manifold to someone with a low boost FI setup, or someone who has the typical bolt on mods. For those people, a spacer is the better choice from a bang for the buck standpoint. For those who want this piece based on looks (and I am sure there are those people too), then again, that is their decision to make in the end.
The whole production delay issue is something altogether different. I am disappointed its taken so long for them to crank them out as well, as I wanted to try it on my own car. Such is life though...sometimes you just have to wait. Hopefully as time goes on, Cosworth will be able to get these pieces in the hands of those who want it, so that there are more tests done by shops/forum members.
Anyway, that's my take on it...ymmv
Last edited by Z1 Performance; 05-09-2008 at 06:24 AM.
05-09-2008, 10:09 AM
#26
Originally Posted by Z1 Performance
It clearly delivered substantial gains on numerous occassions to date. Hype would be a product that promises the sun, the moon and stars, and does not work as advertised. This is clearly not the case with this manifold. The problem is the "hype" was created by people who had no business considering it as a mod in the first place (such as those with minimal bolt on NA mods). It wasn't Cosworth who promised these gains, it was those very people who occupy this forum. Buying into artificial, self perpetuated hype is a different situation than a manufacturer making promises that fail to materialize IMHO. Cosworth didn't tout the manifold as the be all, end all mod for ANY Z/G owner...the people of this forum, who blindly follow whatever the "cool" item of the day is, did that to themselves. It's a natural thing really in the world of the aftermarket unfortunately. The results clearly have been there when this part was added to the right setup....the tests done to date by a variety of people, clearly indicate this. So far the only tests not yet done (at least for the benefit of the forum) are on a properly built NA setup. Part of the reason is that there are just so few of us out there (literally a handful), and the other reason is the manifold itself has unfortunately been in short supply since it's introduction.
Modding is never a zero sum game - mods always need to be carefully planned in order to yield the best results. Not every single mod compliments every other mod. Myself, and others, stated early on for example, that those with minimal bolt on mods, who wanted this manifold were really not going to see the benefits of it from a performance standpoint. That certainly didn't stop people from lining up the buy it.....they wanted to believe it was the second coming, but again, that was all self perpetuated by the forum at large. Just like I wouldn't recommend a set of Moton external resevoir coilovers to someone who drives their car to and from work everyday, or recommend a 4.08 final drive for someone with a 600 whp twin turbo setup, or a set of forged pistons/rods as the only mod, I wouldn't recommend this manifold to someone with a low boost FI setup, or someone who has the typical bolt on mods. For those people, a spacer is the better choice from a bang for the buck standpoint. For those who want this piece based on looks (and I am sure there are those people too), then again, that is their decision to make in the end.
The whole production delay issue is something altogether different. I am disappointed its taken so long for them to crank them out as well, as I wanted to try it on my own car. Such is life though...sometimes you just have to wait. Hopefully as time goes on, Cosworth will be able to get these pieces in the hands of those who want it, so that there are more tests done by shops/forum members.
Anyway, that's my take on it...ymmv
Modding is never a zero sum game - mods always need to be carefully planned in order to yield the best results. Not every single mod compliments every other mod. Myself, and others, stated early on for example, that those with minimal bolt on mods, who wanted this manifold were really not going to see the benefits of it from a performance standpoint. That certainly didn't stop people from lining up the buy it.....they wanted to believe it was the second coming, but again, that was all self perpetuated by the forum at large. Just like I wouldn't recommend a set of Moton external resevoir coilovers to someone who drives their car to and from work everyday, or recommend a 4.08 final drive for someone with a 600 whp twin turbo setup, or a set of forged pistons/rods as the only mod, I wouldn't recommend this manifold to someone with a low boost FI setup, or someone who has the typical bolt on mods. For those people, a spacer is the better choice from a bang for the buck standpoint. For those who want this piece based on looks (and I am sure there are those people too), then again, that is their decision to make in the end.
The whole production delay issue is something altogether different. I am disappointed its taken so long for them to crank them out as well, as I wanted to try it on my own car. Such is life though...sometimes you just have to wait. Hopefully as time goes on, Cosworth will be able to get these pieces in the hands of those who want it, so that there are more tests done by shops/forum members.
Anyway, that's my take on it...ymmv
second, I didn't know that you had to have a built N/A setup or a high boost F/I application to join the cosworth plenum cool club. The info packet that comes with the plenum states that it will provide gains for all setups, N/A and F/I.
Third "you wouldn't recommend this plenum to someone with "low" boost?
Do you consider 8 psi to be "low boost"?https://my350z.com/forum/showpost.ph...6&postcount=84
05-09-2008, 10:40 AM
#29
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Originally Posted by jonnylaw
First off, it wasn't just forum members that hyped this Cosworth plenum, it was vendor(s) as well that drived the hype.
The info packet that comes with the plenum states that it will provide gains for all setups, N/A and F/I.
The info packet that comes with the plenum states that it will provide gains for all setups, N/A and F/I.
Originally Posted by go-fast
how long did people wait for this boat anchor of an intake?......oh yeah i forgot most are still waiting,so they can see minimal gains.i would call that hype.....what do you call it?defective manufacturing?defective marketing?or defective r&d?i think we can just call it hype....if you dangle a carrot and it turns out to be a turd painted orange expect people to spit it out.
well it did provide plenum gains decent n/A gains and the best FI for a plenum mod, so how is it failing to deliver the performance???
Gofast, If you wanna be simplistic and call it a failure of hype then thats your narrow view opinion.
I agree in the part that cosworth dropped the ball as far as producing enough units to deliver it on time. Vendors might have hyped the plenum up too ahead of time with out having it on stock. BUT again, DO YOU CAN THE SIGNIFICANT GAINS FROM THE TESTING INJECTED DID of FI APPLICATIONS HYPE Failure?
you need to separate things, fails on not delivering it on time and as much as the demand, did NOT fail in expected performance gains. This isnt an ssv that generally fails, in gains fi, n/a and looks.
Originally Posted by jonnylaw
exactly. And even at low boost, the cosworth provide substantial gains, so y would Adam not recommend it for low boost applications?
Last edited by IIQuickSilverII; 05-09-2008 at 10:45 AM.
05-09-2008, 11:10 AM
#30
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Originally Posted by jonnylaw
First off, it wasn't just forum members that hyped this Cosworth plenum, it was vendor(s) as well that drived the hype.
second, I didn't know that you had to have a built N/A setup or a high boost F/I application to join the cosworth plenum cool club. The info packet that comes with the plenum states that it will provide gains for all setups, N/A and F/I.
Third "you wouldn't recommend this plenum to someone with "low" boost? Do you consider 8 psi to be "low boost"?
https://my350z.com/forum/showpost.ph...6&postcount=84
second, I didn't know that you had to have a built N/A setup or a high boost F/I application to join the cosworth plenum cool club. The info packet that comes with the plenum states that it will provide gains for all setups, N/A and F/I.
Third "you wouldn't recommend this plenum to someone with "low" boost?
Do you consider 8 psi to be "low boost"?https://my350z.com/forum/showpost.ph...6&postcount=84
Last edited by Z1 Performance; 05-09-2008 at 11:16 AM.
05-09-2008, 11:18 AM
#31
Originally Posted by jonnylaw
exactly. And even at low boost, the cosworth provide substantial gains, so y would Adam not recommend it for low boost applications?
05-09-2008, 11:48 AM
#34
Originally Posted by Z1 Performance
no, for a typical low boost setup, vs a plenum spacer...no, I wouldn't recommend it to someone...but that's me. If someone wants to run it, that is certainly up them, but I suggest a spacer in terms of bang for the buck. In my eyes, the manifold shines on higher boosted setups. Vs stock (no spacer), yes it does provide gains in both NA and FI setups. Vs a plenum spacer, the gains don't become worth the asking price (again from a pure performance standpoint) till higher boost levels IMHO
Originally Posted by Z1 Performance
The problem is the "hype" was created by people who had no business considering it as a mod in the first place (such as those with minimal bolt on NA mods).
what hype? You know, the hype, where Cosworth claimed, and advertised by a prominent vendor that it would achieve 17 hp gain on a stock non-revup engine without any loss:
"The Cosworth intake plenum for the VQ35 has been under development for over 6 months. I saw some rough sketches a few months back, and they finally released their semi-official working prototype for display purposes at SEMA.
They showed us pages and pages of data, flow charts, graphs, etc...that proves they REALLY did their research on this one. They went through 6 different design concepts, before settling on this one. Live testing was conducted on their in-house engine dyno. They claim 17hp improvement in top end power, with no trq loss on the midrange on a bone stock non-revup VQ35.
More importantly, the plenum is finally making power to redline. This thing should be a screamer, especially for the forced induction people, where power tends to drop off around 6500rpm or so."
http://www.forgedperformance.com/sto...cat=315&page=1
Last edited by jonnylaw; 05-09-2008 at 11:50 AM.
05-09-2008, 12:10 PM
#35
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Originally Posted by jonnylaw
My problem with you previous post(s), was that you claimed certain people had "no business" buying this plenum (I didn't know u were the mod God).
Yet your opinion is not based on your own testing, but just lookig at other's tests. You also seemed to insinuate that I was one of the persons that has "no business" buying the Cosworth plenum and that I was adding to the hype on the forum. Yet I actually spent the $$ and time and effort to purchase, and dyno test, the Cosworth vs. a MD setup on my car, and post my results, which I'm sure you have seen. If anything, I helped to kill the hype.
what hype? You know, the hype, where Cosworth claimed, and advertised by a prominent vendor that it would achieve 17 hp gain on a stock non-revup engine without any loss:
"The Cosworth intake plenum for the VQ35 has been under development for over 6 months. I saw some rough sketches a few months back, and they finally released their semi-official working prototype for display purposes at SEMA.
They showed us pages and pages of data, flow charts, graphs, etc...that proves they REALLY did their research on this one. They went through 6 different design concepts, before settling on this one. Live testing was conducted on their in-house engine dyno. They claim 17hp improvement in top end power, with no trq loss on the midrange on a bone stock non-revup VQ35.
More importantly, the plenum is finally making power to redline. This thing should be a screamer, especially for the forced induction people, where power tends to drop off around 6500rpm or so."
http://www.forgedperformance.com/sto...cat=315&page=1
Yet your opinion is not based on your own testing, but just lookig at other's tests. You also seemed to insinuate that I was one of the persons that has "no business" buying the Cosworth plenum and that I was adding to the hype on the forum. Yet I actually spent the $$ and time and effort to purchase, and dyno test, the Cosworth vs. a MD setup on my car, and post my results, which I'm sure you have seen. If anything, I helped to kill the hype.
what hype? You know, the hype, where Cosworth claimed, and advertised by a prominent vendor that it would achieve 17 hp gain on a stock non-revup engine without any loss:
"The Cosworth intake plenum for the VQ35 has been under development for over 6 months. I saw some rough sketches a few months back, and they finally released their semi-official working prototype for display purposes at SEMA.
They showed us pages and pages of data, flow charts, graphs, etc...that proves they REALLY did their research on this one. They went through 6 different design concepts, before settling on this one. Live testing was conducted on their in-house engine dyno. They claim 17hp improvement in top end power, with no trq loss on the midrange on a bone stock non-revup VQ35.
More importantly, the plenum is finally making power to redline. This thing should be a screamer, especially for the forced induction people, where power tends to drop off around 6500rpm or so."
http://www.forgedperformance.com/sto...cat=315&page=1
05-09-2008, 12:22 PM
#37
Originally Posted by Z1 Performance
I never claimed to be anything - I simply stated my opinion. If your opinion differs, that's cool. So far every plenum we've gotten has gone to fill existing backorders, so unfortunately I couldn't test it on my car. At this point now, I don't plan on using it at all, as I am going in a different direction. I'm not aware Cosworth made any official claims of power, but even if we take the above statement at face value, then 17 hp on an engine dyno certainly seems plausible to me
Even if Cos didn't make an official claim of power, Forged did, WAY before it was readily available. That is the root of the cause of any "hype"--not forum members--although many helped to blow up the hype. "Can't put the cart in front of the horse".
05-10-2008, 07:33 AM
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[QUOTE=IIQuickSilverII] BUT again, DO YOU CAN THE SIGNIFICANT GAINS FROM THE TESTING INJECTED DID of FI APPLICATIONS HYPE Failure?
yes,if the manifold only performs for 2% of z owners i call that hype AND a failure.the only people with real gains is high boost and ....rut ro,the end capgaskets are proving a weak point.again, it did'nt make the numbers,it has defects IN production,and if you are the minority who can make power it's boost leak waiting to happen.how can you even argue this case?makes me think you don't have an objective view...or you just like to argue.
yes,if the manifold only performs for 2% of z owners i call that hype AND a failure.the only people with real gains is high boost and ....rut ro,the end capgaskets are proving a weak point.again, it did'nt make the numbers,it has defects IN production,and if you are the minority who can make power it's boost leak waiting to happen.how can you even argue this case?makes me think you don't have an objective view...or you just like to argue.