new aluminum intake manifold plenum pics
07-20-2003, 05:15 AM
#21
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Manifold is gorgeous, if it doesn't lose any power, I'd buy it just for the looks if it's not to pricey.
Did you guys do any research into tuning the intake runner lengths and plenum volume before you built? Just curious if you built it to any specific CFM and VE% or if you just put large runners and big plenum boxes on it?
With the right length intake runner lengths you can get some awesome numbers for certain RPM's. Not saying you should do this, but some companies build multistage intake runner systems with 2 or 3 runners of different lengths to the engine that's can be switched to provide power at certain RPM's. The main problem with them would be that they're heavy, and and difficult to build.
Did you guys do any research into tuning the intake runner lengths and plenum volume before you built? Just curious if you built it to any specific CFM and VE% or if you just put large runners and big plenum boxes on it?
With the right length intake runner lengths you can get some awesome numbers for certain RPM's. Not saying you should do this, but some companies build multistage intake runner systems with 2 or 3 runners of different lengths to the engine that's can be switched to provide power at certain RPM's. The main problem with them would be that they're heavy, and and difficult to build.
Ford Motor Company adopted a dual stage runner design for their high performance 3.0-liter Taurus SHO engine. This engine utilizes a set of 18 inch when the engine operates below 4000 rpm, to help boost low rpm torque. Above 4000 rpm, the engine switches to short, 7-inch runners to help boost high rpm power, right up to the 7000 rpm redline.
Last edited by jesseenglish; 07-20-2003 at 05:29 AM.
07-21-2003, 04:14 PM
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Looks nice. Ever consider cylindrical runners instead of square? I am not sure if the shape would help, but it should allow for a smaller pipe that delivers the same volume (if I remember my college physics correctly). Furthermore, just wondering out loud, anyone ever thought about dual throttle bodies? Much, much more complex, but just something that has been running through my head.
07-21-2003, 04:28 PM
#27
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To comment on this... we here at Crawfords are VERY excited to see more performance parts come up. None of us will deny the op' for more power.
Questions arise though... as Nissan spends hundreds of hours utilizing CAD in determining intake runner lengths, venturi angles, etc... what went into this?
From what we see here, this is a VERY attractive piece... yet may have many "flaws". How many custom venturi horns did you go through to find the most "optimal" gains? These need to be in near perfect balance to properly accelerate air flow inside those longer runners.
I'm concerned from your initial post, you didn't give personal impressions. Let me withdraw this comment if you have yet to drive this car, but I can only assume... you being the developer you have driven the **** out of it!
Just as we each here at Crawford drive our own Zs.
What did you do to address the brake booster chamber that is an integral part of the oem plenum assembly?
We bring up many questions, because one of our partners in California took the oem manifold completely clearing out the venturis in the lower portion of the plenum. Totally opening up the oem chamber to accomodate more air. This in hope would bring forth more power... instead fair losses occured. This unit later became a door stop.
We initially considered converting the VQ35 plenum from the maxima over to our engines. After flowbench testing, lowend gains WERE made. Topend gains suffered. Thus the entire idea of developing a totally custom unit as your own was chopped.
FYI for the "unsure of intake manifold design"
Long Runners = Torque
Short Runners = Top End Power
We finally accepted, (within reason of development costs) Nissan has already found the perfect balance in our engine... We didn't try to increase either end of the spectrum. We simply tried to repair a cosmetic problem that occured to make everything fit. In a NA aspect our plenum is near perfect, minus the 30% imbalance between the rear and the front cylinders. In turn our "repair" of this imbalance made signifigant gains. Sure it didn't fit under the stock bar... so we fixed that also!
On a completely different note... I might be calling you for this piece when I choose to boost. An FI application will totally change everything. A pressurized plenum does not so much require the "advanced" characteristics of a perfectly designed NA plenum.
I'm curious, it looks as though you have a fair amount of very clean and specialized welds. Much like those found by someone with quite a bit of welding experience Which in turn becomes expensive per/hour rates. If you can introduce this piece into the market <$1k I will applaud you.
On behalf of everyone here at Crawfords... we all are VERY excited to see the results of this piece. More importanly more and more companies entering the marketing with parts. If you make big gains... an early congratulations to you, as obviously you have put a HUGE amount of work into these!!!!
As soon as you have results, please don't hesitate to email us... or post them here.
The gains issue seems to be what everyone is most curious about... not what it looks like... but how much power did it make!
Questions arise though... as Nissan spends hundreds of hours utilizing CAD in determining intake runner lengths, venturi angles, etc... what went into this?
From what we see here, this is a VERY attractive piece... yet may have many "flaws". How many custom venturi horns did you go through to find the most "optimal" gains? These need to be in near perfect balance to properly accelerate air flow inside those longer runners.
I'm concerned from your initial post, you didn't give personal impressions. Let me withdraw this comment if you have yet to drive this car, but I can only assume... you being the developer you have driven the **** out of it!
Just as we each here at Crawford drive our own Zs.What did you do to address the brake booster chamber that is an integral part of the oem plenum assembly?
We bring up many questions, because one of our partners in California took the oem manifold completely clearing out the venturis in the lower portion of the plenum. Totally opening up the oem chamber to accomodate more air. This in hope would bring forth more power... instead fair losses occured. This unit later became a door stop.
We initially considered converting the VQ35 plenum from the maxima over to our engines. After flowbench testing, lowend gains WERE made. Topend gains suffered. Thus the entire idea of developing a totally custom unit as your own was chopped.
FYI for the "unsure of intake manifold design"
Long Runners = Torque
Short Runners = Top End Power
We finally accepted, (within reason of development costs) Nissan has already found the perfect balance in our engine... We didn't try to increase either end of the spectrum. We simply tried to repair a cosmetic problem that occured to make everything fit. In a NA aspect our plenum is near perfect, minus the 30% imbalance between the rear and the front cylinders. In turn our "repair" of this imbalance made signifigant gains. Sure it didn't fit under the stock bar... so we fixed that also!
On a completely different note... I might be calling you for this piece when I choose to boost. An FI application will totally change everything. A pressurized plenum does not so much require the "advanced" characteristics of a perfectly designed NA plenum.
I'm curious, it looks as though you have a fair amount of very clean and specialized welds. Much like those found by someone with quite a bit of welding experience Which in turn becomes expensive per/hour rates. If you can introduce this piece into the market <$1k I will applaud you.
On behalf of everyone here at Crawfords... we all are VERY excited to see the results of this piece. More importanly more and more companies entering the marketing with parts. If you make big gains... an early congratulations to you, as obviously you have put a HUGE amount of work into these!!!!
As soon as you have results, please don't hesitate to email us... or post them here.
The gains issue seems to be what everyone is most curious about... not what it looks like... but how much power did it make!
07-21-2003, 04:30 PM
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looks cool but it looks too squared off for the air to flow properly through it...or are the insides of this thing different than what the outside looks like?
Also, you may want to hurry up and dyno/price this thing because Crawford is taking tons of orders...mine included. If this produces more gains than the crawford, you will definitely have a hot product, as you can keep the stock strut bar and plenum.
Also, you may want to hurry up and dyno/price this thing because Crawford is taking tons of orders...mine included. If this produces more gains than the crawford, you will definitely have a hot product, as you can keep the stock strut bar and plenum.
Last edited by zeroday; 07-21-2003 at 04:35 PM.
07-21-2003, 05:40 PM
#29
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All very very valid points,
Like I said, this is the prottype, and to answer a few questions.....
The target was to add power with a NA set, but add REAL power with a FI setup. I know you hate to hear it, but looking at some of the technology used in Hondas can be very useful (yes it is a saturated market, but that also means MANY companies shooting to edge eachother out) Honda manifolds, like the VENOM, will use the same concepts we have tried to use which will yield decent results in a NA set up, but will really shine in a FI setup.
If we could pull the same 7 peak hp from our plenum as the Crawford plenum, I would have to go out and celebrate!! But having seen all the interest in superchargers, like the ATI, we thought this would be a great addition. One of my good customers in Hawaii has his kit on order, and we will hopefully be dynoing before and after with the ATI kit and the new manifold.
For area used, the sqaure will flow the most, not a circle, that is why milk cartons are square. I am not an engineer at Nissan, nor do I have a flow bench in house, but I see no need for it. Let me explain. For this particular project, or many of the other ones we have in the works for the Z we can do about 95% of the manufacturing "in house" We start with a design, test it out, and can change, redesign, alter, throw away, polish, sand blast, or kick it around the shop until we like or don't like it.
Our prototype will go out to be dyno'd , the only real world way of proving performance.
Yes TIG welding aluminum is HARD and expensive, it uses expensive materials and a lot of gas. Mandrel bending aluminum is also very expensive as it must be sent out to be annealed. All in all though we can keep it very affordable as we do all of our own welding.
We won't be selling them until gains are proven, so please don't worry about that. I was very hesitant about posting these pics, just got kind of anxious. I really appreciate all your feedback and please be confident that when released, it will be just as functional as the factory plenum, fittings, coolant lines, vacuum lines, etc.
Basically, we will have it dyno'd by several people, post the results, and let you decide whether you want it or not.
Like I said, this is the prottype, and to answer a few questions.....
The target was to add power with a NA set, but add REAL power with a FI setup. I know you hate to hear it, but looking at some of the technology used in Hondas can be very useful (yes it is a saturated market, but that also means MANY companies shooting to edge eachother out) Honda manifolds, like the VENOM, will use the same concepts we have tried to use which will yield decent results in a NA set up, but will really shine in a FI setup.
If we could pull the same 7 peak hp from our plenum as the Crawford plenum, I would have to go out and celebrate!! But having seen all the interest in superchargers, like the ATI, we thought this would be a great addition. One of my good customers in Hawaii has his kit on order, and we will hopefully be dynoing before and after with the ATI kit and the new manifold.
For area used, the sqaure will flow the most, not a circle, that is why milk cartons are square. I am not an engineer at Nissan, nor do I have a flow bench in house, but I see no need for it. Let me explain. For this particular project, or many of the other ones we have in the works for the Z we can do about 95% of the manufacturing "in house" We start with a design, test it out, and can change, redesign, alter, throw away, polish, sand blast, or kick it around the shop until we like or don't like it.
Our prototype will go out to be dyno'd , the only real world way of proving performance.
Yes TIG welding aluminum is HARD and expensive, it uses expensive materials and a lot of gas. Mandrel bending aluminum is also very expensive as it must be sent out to be annealed. All in all though we can keep it very affordable as we do all of our own welding.
We won't be selling them until gains are proven, so please don't worry about that. I was very hesitant about posting these pics, just got kind of anxious. I really appreciate all your feedback and please be confident that when released, it will be just as functional as the factory plenum, fittings, coolant lines, vacuum lines, etc.
Basically, we will have it dyno'd by several people, post the results, and let you decide whether you want it or not.
07-21-2003, 08:13 PM
#32
Originally posted by peptidbond
Furthermore, just wondering out loud, anyone ever thought about dual throttle bodies? Much, much more complex, but just something that has been running through my head.
Furthermore, just wondering out loud, anyone ever thought about dual throttle bodies? Much, much more complex, but just something that has been running through my head.
We talkin' some major Bling Bling here!http://g35driver.com/forums/attatchm...gineroom_1.jpg
Last edited by MustGoFastR; 07-21-2003 at 08:16 PM.
07-21-2003, 08:25 PM
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Originally posted by MustGoFastR
Forget dual throttle bodies; how about individual throttle bodies like this Tommy Kaira setup?! We talkin' some major Bling Bling here!
http://g35driver.com/forums/attatchm...gineroom_1.jpg
Forget dual throttle bodies; how about individual throttle bodies like this Tommy Kaira setup?!
We talkin' some major Bling Bling here!http://g35driver.com/forums/attatchm...gineroom_1.jpg
07-21-2003, 08:30 PM
#34
Originally posted by OC_350Z
Yeah I saw that, E46 M3 style. I tried to find a price but no luck. Must be bank though
Yeah I saw that, E46 M3 style. I tried to find a price but no luck. Must be bank though
Looks damn sweet, but sucks hot air and forget about FI.
07-22-2003, 04:47 AM
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Daytona, why all the questions? you know you will be the first to see!, and Fiddlerg35, you have a PM, I will be contacting you about test fitment on the G. Hopefully I will have dyno results and more pics for everyone within a week or two!!!
Jason
jays350z@aol.com
www.mrcmotorsportsllc.com
Jason
jays350z@aol.com
www.mrcmotorsportsllc.com
07-22-2003, 07:09 AM
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Log on the fire
Posted by lsdunique
"For area used, the sqaure will flow the most, not a circle, that is why milk cartons are square. I am not an engineer at Nissan, nor do I have a flow bench in house, but I see no need for it. Let me explain. For this particular project, or many of the other ones we have in the works for the Z we can do about 95% of the manufacturing "in house" We start with a design, test it out, and can change, redesign, alter, throw away, polish, sand blast, or kick it around the shop until we like or don't like it. "
END QUOTE
OKay, I'll throw a log onto the intake fire.
I would be very nervous about buying a new intake that is not flow bench tested. You could very easily create a lean condition in random cylinders to which the engine's computer cannot compensate. Obviously the lean condition is the worst scenario.
Now of course the stock Nissan designed manifold isn't perfect either, but they errored on the side of being too rich which is ok.
One of the reason I have always like the crawford plenum is that it is flow bench tested to deliver optimum air flow to each cylinder allowing your engine to run very balanced for air-fuel ratio -- this is good. However I have never liked the fact that I could not put the engine cover back on and had to buy a new strut bar also.
lsdunique, I am not saying your new manifold will not work or produce power. However I am asking the question of how do you know you are not creating a lean condition in one of cylinders and causing severe problems (like burn a valve, etc). I also understand about using proven design technology from the Honda world, but you simply cannot weld some tubes together and have an optimized design.
Evil350z is very correct in that the intake runners, shape, and air flow distribution all need to be carefully mapped and flow bench tested to assure it works. Maybe an explanation of how you arrived and the intake runner length, shape, and design of the plenum would be helpful.....
Flame suit on....
"For area used, the sqaure will flow the most, not a circle, that is why milk cartons are square. I am not an engineer at Nissan, nor do I have a flow bench in house, but I see no need for it. Let me explain. For this particular project, or many of the other ones we have in the works for the Z we can do about 95% of the manufacturing "in house" We start with a design, test it out, and can change, redesign, alter, throw away, polish, sand blast, or kick it around the shop until we like or don't like it. "
END QUOTE
OKay, I'll throw a log onto the intake fire.
I would be very nervous about buying a new intake that is not flow bench tested. You could very easily create a lean condition in random cylinders to which the engine's computer cannot compensate. Obviously the lean condition is the worst scenario.
Now of course the stock Nissan designed manifold isn't perfect either, but they errored on the side of being too rich which is ok.
One of the reason I have always like the crawford plenum is that it is flow bench tested to deliver optimum air flow to each cylinder allowing your engine to run very balanced for air-fuel ratio -- this is good. However I have never liked the fact that I could not put the engine cover back on and had to buy a new strut bar also.
lsdunique, I am not saying your new manifold will not work or produce power. However I am asking the question of how do you know you are not creating a lean condition in one of cylinders and causing severe problems (like burn a valve, etc). I also understand about using proven design technology from the Honda world, but you simply cannot weld some tubes together and have an optimized design.
Evil350z is very correct in that the intake runners, shape, and air flow distribution all need to be carefully mapped and flow bench tested to assure it works. Maybe an explanation of how you arrived and the intake runner length, shape, and design of the plenum would be helpful.....
Flame suit on....
07-22-2003, 07:29 AM
#39
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Re: Log on the fire
Originally posted by jelledge
Posted by lsdunique
I would be very nervous about buying a new intake that is not flow bench tested. You could very easily create a lean condition in random cylinders to which the engine's computer cannot compensate. Obviously the lean condition is the worst scenario.
One of the reason I have always like the crawford plenum is that it is flow bench tested to deliver optimum air flow to each cylinder allowing your engine to run very balanced for air-fuel ratio -- this is good. However I have never liked the fact that I could not put the engine cover back on and had to buy a new strut bar also.
lsdunique, I am not saying your new manifold will not work or produce power. However I am asking the question of how do you know you are not creating a lean condition in one of cylinders and causing severe problems (like burn a valve, etc). I also understand about using proven design technology from the Honda world, but you simply cannot weld some tubes together and have an optimized design.
Evil350z is very correct in that the intake runners, shape, and air flow distribution all need to be carefully mapped and flow bench tested to assure it works. Maybe an explanation of how you arrived and the intake runner length, shape, and design of the plenum would be helpful.....
Flame suit on....
Posted by lsdunique
I would be very nervous about buying a new intake that is not flow bench tested. You could very easily create a lean condition in random cylinders to which the engine's computer cannot compensate. Obviously the lean condition is the worst scenario.
One of the reason I have always like the crawford plenum is that it is flow bench tested to deliver optimum air flow to each cylinder allowing your engine to run very balanced for air-fuel ratio -- this is good. However I have never liked the fact that I could not put the engine cover back on and had to buy a new strut bar also.
lsdunique, I am not saying your new manifold will not work or produce power. However I am asking the question of how do you know you are not creating a lean condition in one of cylinders and causing severe problems (like burn a valve, etc). I also understand about using proven design technology from the Honda world, but you simply cannot weld some tubes together and have an optimized design.
Evil350z is very correct in that the intake runners, shape, and air flow distribution all need to be carefully mapped and flow bench tested to assure it works. Maybe an explanation of how you arrived and the intake runner length, shape, and design of the plenum would be helpful.....
Flame suit on....
07-22-2003, 07:30 AM
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They're right you know. Even if the design looks similar it does not have the same flow properties. depending on how it's designe you could actually have a vacuum on certain cylinders. Just like how if you put a poorly designed intake scoop on your hood you can decrease the efficiency.
With all that said, FI doesn't follow the same air flow laws as NA does, so I would have no problem putting this on an FI car, if for no other reason than it looks badass.
BTW milk cartons are square because they're easier to stack. You will get the most volume out of a circle for the amount of material used.
With all that said, FI doesn't follow the same air flow laws as NA does, so I would have no problem putting this on an FI car, if for no other reason than it looks badass.
BTW milk cartons are square because they're easier to stack. You will get the most volume out of a circle for the amount of material used.