Plenum vs Spacer
Originally Posted by gothchick
Ohhh lawd. Here we go... Getting some popcorn.
No show here...move along, nothing to see...
Originally Posted by Hydrazine
Price?
yeah, "dealers beware"
you had overpriced them for years and had 2 options. and now you are just tripping over the competition
Originally Posted by Hydrazine
Size:
Motordyne used to offer a 3/8" spacer a few years back, but with extensive dyno testing, a better optimum was found with the 5/16". 5/16" yeilds the highest overall gain.
Motordyne used to offer a 3/8" spacer a few years back, but with extensive dyno testing, a better optimum was found with the 5/16". 5/16" yeilds the highest overall gain.
" 1/2" Basic Plenum spacer
This stealth modification adds 11HP-14HP and is the simplest to install. This plenum spacer can be used for maximum performance enhancement. "
Originally Posted by Hydrazine
Aluminum Material:
The same.
The same.
billet is 100x more accurate then cheap water jetI wonder why PL dont use it for "air flow"?...probably cause Waterjet cutting is jagged and coarse, where as cnc milling is smooth, precise and ideal for air flow. I have a question for you though: name an OE part that is used in the intake portion of the engine, that is waterjet cut. Ill give you a few pointers : plastic injection mold, sand cast
Originally Posted by Hydrazine
Internal supports:
Not just billet plastic machined to size like all the others spacers on the market. Each MD internal support is a custom molded part (of carefully researched plastic material properties) and with safety design features not found in the other spacer kits.
The internal supports snap on like a zip tie and once installed they will stay in place even if its respective bolt is removed.
Not just billet plastic machined to size like all the others spacers on the market. Each MD internal support is a custom molded part (of carefully researched plastic material properties) and with safety design features not found in the other spacer kits.
The internal supports snap on like a zip tie and once installed they will stay in place even if its respective bolt is removed.
Btw instead of you saying plastic, say the competition aka powerlab uses delrin, which is an aerospace quality self-lubricating plastic.
Seriously, you need to find another product to sell because you might as well be splitting hairs between shell gas and chevron gas on what makes more power in theory
.There are no problems and no complaints on the safety stuff you mentioned; is so why dont you just make your kit standard across the board?, instead of founding ways to milk people of more money with negative marketing
Last edited by IIQuickSilverII; Jul 11, 2008 at 12:56 PM.
The market for the de is saturated. There is virtually no market for the hr. Therefore MD is having trouble coming up with new innovative stuff...
I do have an MD spacer and lower collector, but only because at the time there weren't a lot of choices. Now there are, and MD needs to start being innovative again.
The MREV2 is good no doubt, but anyone with a non-revup lower collector could easily make one just as good. They've brought nothing new to market for a few years now. Gonna get left behind.
I do have an MD spacer and lower collector, but only because at the time there weren't a lot of choices. Now there are, and MD needs to start being innovative again.
The MREV2 is good no doubt, but anyone with a non-revup lower collector could easily make one just as good. They've brought nothing new to market for a few years now. Gonna get left behind.
Last edited by gothchick; Jul 11, 2008 at 01:33 PM.
Jorge,
You have a lot of assertions in your post that I don't agree with, but its not worth arguing about, so I won't.
I've replied here to what I could find of descriptive and technical merit.
Then why do you offer a 1/2" at all? now you are backtracking saying that 5/16 is all you need? you bust your own statement ..your website says else 1/2" is offered because some people want their gains as much as possible at the high end of the RPM spectrum.
1/2" makes the best peak gains and 5/16" makes the best overall gains.
The 1/2" spacer also means ditching the stock strut bar. This may or may not be acceptable and depends on the application.
For street or strip driving this is fine.
For road course racing it would be best to keep the strut bar in place.
billet is 100x more accurate then cheap water jet
First off, a billet is not a machining process.
A billet is the shape a raw material. For example, a bar, stick, rod or dowel of wood, metal or plastic is also called a "billet".
Billet is not a quality of material or a manufacturing process, nor does it give an indication of machining accuracy or imply a cost.
A billet is more typically an object that is turned in a lathe.
If a billet is hollow, it is called a tube or a pipe.
In any case, a "billet" is not a machining process.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billet_(manufacturing)
As for machining accuracy, there is only so much that can be utilized in this application. 0.020" accuracy it is more than adequate for the sand cast plenum.
Typical CNC water jet is good to ~0.005" accuracy.
Typical CNC milling is good to ~0.0005" accuracy.
Either far exceeds the needs of the application. But much more important than the machining accuracy is the design loaded into the CNC machine.
If the spacer (by design) hangs out 1/4", all that accuracy (in either case) means nothing.
Feel free to disagree, but I'll vouch for the Motordyne spacer being the best fitting and best conforming spacer on the market.
I wonder why PL dont use it for "air flow"?...probably cause Waterjet cutting is jagged and coarse, where as cnc milling is smooth, precise and ideal for air flow. I have a question for you though: name an OE part that is used in the intake portion of the engine, that is waterjet cut. Ill give you a few pointers : plastic injection mold, sand cast
The spacer is not in an area of high air flow velocity and has no effect on the flow except for where it raises the upper plenum from the runners and changes the plenum internal volume.
The total surface area of the spacer itself is very small compared to the rest of the sand cast plenum and will make no difference relative to the rest of the sand cast finish.
For example:
For all the cases where people have ground and polished the entire inside of their upper and lower plenums and dynod it, it made absolutely no difference.
The velocity of the air is much too low for polish to make a difference in these areas.
I've dynod lower plenums with highly polished intake runners and the most that a port and polish did was a 4 HP blip, 500 RPM wide near the HP peak. That makes runner polishing effectively useless. And the velocity of air inside the intake runners is many orders of magnitude higher than anywhere else in the plenum. Surface finish on the spacer does nothing to the air flow.
There are no problems and no complaints on the safety stuff you mentioned; is so why dont you just make your kit standard across the board?,
Different options are made available for different people with different applications and needs.
Obviously the Copper Iso Thermal costs more to manufacture. Copper metal costs much more than aluminum or steel. Copper metal is a real cost driver.
If I lived in Buffalo NY, I wouldn't use anything but the Copper. In the mornings on the way to work, I would never want shovel through more of the 4' super cold snow just to open the hood and switch on a valve that was forgotten or improperly set. The Copper Iso Thermal is the best solution here. There is nothing to forget or adjust.
But for anyone who lives in the warmer climates like CA, TX and FL, freezing is a rare occurance. In this case, the regular Iso Thermal can be used at a lower cost. And in the rare occasion when it does get cold, or when going on a long drive in the mountains for a snow skiing trip, the CCV can be turned to the on position.
And for the person that wants to minimize cost and simplify their installation as much as possible, and still not have to worry throttle body freezing (in any kind of climate) they can select the Basic plenum spacer.
The whole plenum runs hot (like stock) with the Basic spacer, but its a different set of compromises.
This is why the different options are offered.
As for the TB safety issue... If you don't think throttle body freezing is a real issue, you should consider that every throttlebody, in every car, from every major automotive manufacturer in the world, the throttle body is heated specifically to avoid throttle body freezing.
It is a corner that should not be cut.
You have a lot of assertions in your post that I don't agree with, but its not worth arguing about, so I won't.
I've replied here to what I could find of descriptive and technical merit.
Then why do you offer a 1/2" at all? now you are backtracking saying that 5/16 is all you need? you bust your own statement ..your website says else 1/2" is offered because some people want their gains as much as possible at the high end of the RPM spectrum.
1/2" makes the best peak gains and 5/16" makes the best overall gains.
The 1/2" spacer also means ditching the stock strut bar. This may or may not be acceptable and depends on the application.
For street or strip driving this is fine.
For road course racing it would be best to keep the strut bar in place.
billet is 100x more accurate then cheap water jetFirst off, a billet is not a machining process.
A billet is the shape a raw material. For example, a bar, stick, rod or dowel of wood, metal or plastic is also called a "billet".
Billet is not a quality of material or a manufacturing process, nor does it give an indication of machining accuracy or imply a cost.
A billet is more typically an object that is turned in a lathe.
If a billet is hollow, it is called a tube or a pipe.
In any case, a "billet" is not a machining process.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billet_(manufacturing)
As for machining accuracy, there is only so much that can be utilized in this application. 0.020" accuracy it is more than adequate for the sand cast plenum.
Typical CNC water jet is good to ~0.005" accuracy.
Typical CNC milling is good to ~0.0005" accuracy.
Either far exceeds the needs of the application. But much more important than the machining accuracy is the design loaded into the CNC machine.
If the spacer (by design) hangs out 1/4", all that accuracy (in either case) means nothing.
Feel free to disagree, but I'll vouch for the Motordyne spacer being the best fitting and best conforming spacer on the market.
I wonder why PL dont use it for "air flow"?...probably cause Waterjet cutting is jagged and coarse, where as cnc milling is smooth, precise and ideal for air flow. I have a question for you though: name an OE part that is used in the intake portion of the engine, that is waterjet cut. Ill give you a few pointers : plastic injection mold, sand cast
The spacer is not in an area of high air flow velocity and has no effect on the flow except for where it raises the upper plenum from the runners and changes the plenum internal volume.
The total surface area of the spacer itself is very small compared to the rest of the sand cast plenum and will make no difference relative to the rest of the sand cast finish.
For example:
For all the cases where people have ground and polished the entire inside of their upper and lower plenums and dynod it, it made absolutely no difference.
The velocity of the air is much too low for polish to make a difference in these areas.
I've dynod lower plenums with highly polished intake runners and the most that a port and polish did was a 4 HP blip, 500 RPM wide near the HP peak. That makes runner polishing effectively useless. And the velocity of air inside the intake runners is many orders of magnitude higher than anywhere else in the plenum. Surface finish on the spacer does nothing to the air flow.
There are no problems and no complaints on the safety stuff you mentioned; is so why dont you just make your kit standard across the board?,
Different options are made available for different people with different applications and needs.
Obviously the Copper Iso Thermal costs more to manufacture. Copper metal costs much more than aluminum or steel. Copper metal is a real cost driver.
If I lived in Buffalo NY, I wouldn't use anything but the Copper. In the mornings on the way to work, I would never want shovel through more of the 4' super cold snow just to open the hood and switch on a valve that was forgotten or improperly set. The Copper Iso Thermal is the best solution here. There is nothing to forget or adjust.
But for anyone who lives in the warmer climates like CA, TX and FL, freezing is a rare occurance. In this case, the regular Iso Thermal can be used at a lower cost. And in the rare occasion when it does get cold, or when going on a long drive in the mountains for a snow skiing trip, the CCV can be turned to the on position.
And for the person that wants to minimize cost and simplify their installation as much as possible, and still not have to worry throttle body freezing (in any kind of climate) they can select the Basic plenum spacer.
The whole plenum runs hot (like stock) with the Basic spacer, but its a different set of compromises.
This is why the different options are offered.
As for the TB safety issue... If you don't think throttle body freezing is a real issue, you should consider that every throttlebody, in every car, from every major automotive manufacturer in the world, the throttle body is heated specifically to avoid throttle body freezing.
It is a corner that should not be cut.
Originally Posted by gothchick
They've brought nothing new to market for a few years now. Gonna get left behind.
There has been a lot of development work going on that you may not be aware of.
Exhaust system mods with gains that far exceed anything else on the market.
You'll see.
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