Varis/Titek Duct Performance Gains?
Tony from Motordyne mentioned that a hot engine bay (specifically from a stop) can cause aftermarket ram air intakes to lose as much as 15hp for the first 4 seconds of a launch until the air gets flowing and the intake isn't just sucking in all the hot air from the engine bay.
This came more from a brief discussion about JWT Popcharger vs. Stock Box w/ K&N Drop-In, but the concept is there nonetheless. If a duct increases air circulation and generally cooler air flow to the intake, I'd say that's a great thing. Regaining 15hp for 4 seconds (or anything like that) could be huge for some people.
This came more from a brief discussion about JWT Popcharger vs. Stock Box w/ K&N Drop-In, but the concept is there nonetheless. If a duct increases air circulation and generally cooler air flow to the intake, I'd say that's a great thing. Regaining 15hp for 4 seconds (or anything like that) could be huge for some people.
Look at the way your stock box is setup. It is COMPLETELY closed off from the engine bay. It sucks air in from inside the front bumper. The air in the bumper is the same temprature as the air outside the car (+5 degrees MAX from the sun heating it up in the summer). So........again, what benefit is the duct going to do, that the normal air flowing through the massive "mouth" on the from of your car, directing air into the front of you bumper isn't going to do for you!!!!?!?! Seriously!!! Go outside and look inside the front of your bumper. It's a HUGE void, that is open on the front. Any residual heating of the air in there from the sun, or the radiator, is going to be almost instantly changed out by the huge opening in front as soon as you move!
Stop trying to re-invent the wheel. lol
Last edited by halfass872; Apr 16, 2009 at 06:26 AM.
Man you guys REALLY need to search this topic. It has been beaten into the ground!!
Look at the way your stock box is setup. It is COMPLETELY closed off from the engine bay. It sucks air in from inside the front bumper. The air in the bumper is the same temprature as the air outside the car (+5 degrees MAX from the sun heating it up in the summer). So........again, what benefit is the duct going to do, that the normal air flowing through the massive "mouth" on the from of your car, directing air into the front of you bumper isn't going to do for you!!!!?!?! Seriously!!! Go outside and look inside the front of your bumper. It's a HUGE void, that is open on the front. Any residual heating of the air in there from the sun, or the radiator, is going to be almost instantly changed out by the huge opening in front as soon as you move!
Stop trying to re-invent the wheel. lol
Look at the way your stock box is setup. It is COMPLETELY closed off from the engine bay. It sucks air in from inside the front bumper. The air in the bumper is the same temprature as the air outside the car (+5 degrees MAX from the sun heating it up in the summer). So........again, what benefit is the duct going to do, that the normal air flowing through the massive "mouth" on the from of your car, directing air into the front of you bumper isn't going to do for you!!!!?!?! Seriously!!! Go outside and look inside the front of your bumper. It's a HUGE void, that is open on the front. Any residual heating of the air in there from the sun, or the radiator, is going to be almost instantly changed out by the huge opening in front as soon as you move!
Stop trying to re-invent the wheel. lol
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From: Tulsa, OK
And they didn't provide anything conclusive. Did you actually read the threads?
Look. I started this thread to see if anyone had done any testing or had any hard data to support the existence of a front bumper duct. That particular aspect has hardly been "beaten into the ground". Believe me, I searched the Hell out of this topic and found nothing conclusive. It yielded nothing but speculation and people feeling the need to opine without any evidentiary backing.
That's all fine and good, but it doesn't help. At all. There's enough intuitive logic on either side to make speculation on either side equally plausible. That's why I asked if anyone had conducted testing or had evidence of results (or the lack thereof).
And I really don't understand the "reinvent the wheel" comment.
Look. I started this thread to see if anyone had done any testing or had any hard data to support the existence of a front bumper duct. That particular aspect has hardly been "beaten into the ground". Believe me, I searched the Hell out of this topic and found nothing conclusive. It yielded nothing but speculation and people feeling the need to opine without any evidentiary backing.
That's all fine and good, but it doesn't help. At all. There's enough intuitive logic on either side to make speculation on either side equally plausible. That's why I asked if anyone had conducted testing or had evidence of results (or the lack thereof).
And I really don't understand the "reinvent the wheel" comment.
Last edited by onagao; Apr 16, 2009 at 08:07 AM.
And they didn't provide anything conclusive. Did you actually read the threads?
Look. I started this thread to see if anyone had done any testing or had any hard data to support the existence of a front bumper duct. That particular aspect has hardly been "beaten into the ground". Believe me I searched the Hell out of this topic and found nothing conclusive. It yielded nothing but speculation and people feeling the need to opine without any evidentiary backing.
That's all fine and good, but it doesn't help. At all. There's enough intuitive logic on either side to make speculation on either side equally plausible. That's why I asked if anyone had conducted testing or had evidence of results (or the lack thereof).
And I really don't understand the "reinvent the wheel" comment.
Look. I started this thread to see if anyone had done any testing or had any hard data to support the existence of a front bumper duct. That particular aspect has hardly been "beaten into the ground". Believe me I searched the Hell out of this topic and found nothing conclusive. It yielded nothing but speculation and people feeling the need to opine without any evidentiary backing.
That's all fine and good, but it doesn't help. At all. There's enough intuitive logic on either side to make speculation on either side equally plausible. That's why I asked if anyone had conducted testing or had evidence of results (or the lack thereof).
And I really don't understand the "reinvent the wheel" comment.
Look around at the people that are making serious HP #s., then tell us how many of them have a hole cut into their bumper!?!?! If this was worth doing, as cheap as it is, don't you think everyone would forego the asthetics of this, and install one??
If you would of read, and understood what was in my post, you would understand why i'm telling you to stop trying to re-invent the wheel.
Do some research on how much CFM of air a NA Z takes in at various RPMs. Vice how much CFM of air you would be feeding that little hole in the front of you bumper at sane speeds. And you'll realize that the only time you will be "ramming" air into the intake quicker then the engine is naturally sucking it in, is going to be when you are doing low RPM at high speeds. At which point any gains would be pointless. Nissan would have engineered the car this way if your theory was true, so don't try to re-invent the wheel!
I'm not even going to touch the temprature thing AGAIN. There are too many threads already on that subject that apply to this situation. Factory airbox, drop in Nismo filter (not oily crappy K&N) = best CAI you are gonna get.
BTW...you are on a forum. This is a place for opinions. So don't get butthurt when someone has an opinion that you don't care for. None of us are experts, but there are many of us here that have had way more trial and error experience then others.
Last edited by halfass872; Apr 16, 2009 at 08:42 AM.
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You found nothing conclusive because there are no significant gains to get from this mod so people have chosen not to waste their time and money dyno'ing this!!
Look around at the people that are making serious HP #s., then tell us how many of them have a hole cut into their bumper!?!?! If this was worth doing, as cheap as it is, don't you think everyone would forego the asthetics of this, and install one??
If you would of read, and understood what was in my post, you would understand why i'm telling you to stop trying to re-invent the wheel.
Do some research on how much CFM of air a NA Z takes in at various RPMs. Vice how much CFM of air you would be feeding that little hole in the front of you bumper at sane speeds. And you'll realize that the only time you will be "ramming" air into the intake quicker then the engine is naturally sucking it in, is going to be when you are doing low RPM at high speeds. At which point any gains would be pointless. Nissan would have engineered the car this way if your theory was true, so don't try to re-invent the wheel!
I'm not even going to touch the temprature thing AGAIN. There are too many threads already on that subject that apply to this situation. Factory airbox, drop in Nismo filter (not oily crappy K&N) = best CAI you are gonna get.
BTW...you are on a forum. This is a place for opinions. So don't get butthurt when someone has an opinion that you don't care for. None of us are experts, but there are many of us here that have had way more trial and error experience then others.
Look around at the people that are making serious HP #s., then tell us how many of them have a hole cut into their bumper!?!?! If this was worth doing, as cheap as it is, don't you think everyone would forego the asthetics of this, and install one??
If you would of read, and understood what was in my post, you would understand why i'm telling you to stop trying to re-invent the wheel.
Do some research on how much CFM of air a NA Z takes in at various RPMs. Vice how much CFM of air you would be feeding that little hole in the front of you bumper at sane speeds. And you'll realize that the only time you will be "ramming" air into the intake quicker then the engine is naturally sucking it in, is going to be when you are doing low RPM at high speeds. At which point any gains would be pointless. Nissan would have engineered the car this way if your theory was true, so don't try to re-invent the wheel!
I'm not even going to touch the temprature thing AGAIN. There are too many threads already on that subject that apply to this situation. Factory airbox, drop in Nismo filter (not oily crappy K&N) = best CAI you are gonna get.
BTW...you are on a forum. This is a place for opinions. So don't get butthurt when someone has an opinion that you don't care for. None of us are experts, but there are many of us here that have had way more trial and error experience then others.
And I'm not going to let this devolve into a pointless argument with you over the merits of your arguments. As I said before, there is an equal amount of logical presumption on either side to warrant an honest discussion and exploration of FACTS.
I think you're missing the point. Just because a lot of people think something probably doesn't yield gains or benefits does not mean that it is a foregone conclusion.
Your "reinventing the wheel" bit doesn't work, either. The design of the intake manifold is a perfect example of style trumping substance in Nissan's original design, and there are numerous other examples of similar occurrences. Suggesting that it doesn't work because it doesn't come on the car is fatally flawed logic.
And beyond that, I'm not suggesting any one particular theory is correct. I'm not saying that you can force air into the intake this way. I'm also not saying that it lowers the temperatures in the engine bay. I'm also not saying that it even increases circulation. I'm saying that it looks like it might. And most importantly, I'm saying this warrants a thread in which hard data or testing results are requested. It's not that complicated, and I'm quite frankly surprised by your vehement opposition.
As a side note: I am a degreed mechanical engineer and a law student. I know how things should work, and I do my research when I'm not sure how they actually do. This is part of that process. Please don't insinuate that I haven't read, or haven't done research, or haven't done anything of that sort. I've done a hell of a lot of looking into this, haven't found anything solid or conclusive, and all I'm asking for is a little assistance from the "many of us here that have had way more trial and error experience then [sic] others." The issue deserves more than mere speculation and conjecture.
Last edited by onagao; Apr 16, 2009 at 08:46 AM.
I'm well aware that this is a forum, and I welcome opinions. However, I'm not so fond of people jumping on just to dismiss a completely valid question without providing a legitimate answer.
And I'm not going to let this devolve into a pointless argument with you over the merits of your arguments. As I said before, there is an equal amount of logical presumption on either side to warrant an honest discussion and exploration of FACTS.
I think you're missing the point. Just because a lot of people think something probably doesn't yield gains or benefits does not mean that it is a foregone conclusion.
Your "reinventing the wheel" bit doesn't work, either. The design of the intake manifold is a perfect example of style trumping substance in Nissan's original design, and there are numerous other examples of similar occurrences. Suggesting that it doesn't work because it doesn't come on the car is fatally flawed logic.
And beyond that, I'm not suggesting any one particular theory is correct. I'm not saying that you can force air into the intake this way. I'm also not saying that it lowers the temperatures in the engine bay. I'm also not saying that it even increases circulation. I'm saying that it looks like it might. And most importantly, I'm saying this warrants a thread in which hard data or testing results are requested. It's not that complicated, and I'm quite frankly surprised by your vehement opposition.
As a side note: I am a degreed mechanical engineer and a law student. I know how things should work, and I do my research when I'm not sure how they actually do. This is part of that process. Please don't insinuate that I haven't read, or haven't done research, or haven't done anything of that sort. I've done a hell of a lot of looking into this, haven't found anything solid or conclusive, and all I'm asking for is a little assistance from the "many of us here that have had way more trial and error experience then [sic] others." The issue deserves more than mere speculation and conjecture.
And I'm not going to let this devolve into a pointless argument with you over the merits of your arguments. As I said before, there is an equal amount of logical presumption on either side to warrant an honest discussion and exploration of FACTS.
I think you're missing the point. Just because a lot of people think something probably doesn't yield gains or benefits does not mean that it is a foregone conclusion.
Your "reinventing the wheel" bit doesn't work, either. The design of the intake manifold is a perfect example of style trumping substance in Nissan's original design, and there are numerous other examples of similar occurrences. Suggesting that it doesn't work because it doesn't come on the car is fatally flawed logic.
And beyond that, I'm not suggesting any one particular theory is correct. I'm not saying that you can force air into the intake this way. I'm also not saying that it lowers the temperatures in the engine bay. I'm also not saying that it even increases circulation. I'm saying that it looks like it might. And most importantly, I'm saying this warrants a thread in which hard data or testing results are requested. It's not that complicated, and I'm quite frankly surprised by your vehement opposition.
As a side note: I am a degreed mechanical engineer and a law student. I know how things should work, and I do my research when I'm not sure how they actually do. This is part of that process. Please don't insinuate that I haven't read, or haven't done research, or haven't done anything of that sort. I've done a hell of a lot of looking into this, haven't found anything solid or conclusive, and all I'm asking for is a little assistance from the "many of us here that have had way more trial and error experience then [sic] others." The issue deserves more than mere speculation and conjecture.
I'll say it again. NO ONE CARES ABOUT THIS MOD, that's why no one has wasted their time investigating it thoroughly. If you are "not saying it rams the air, flows more, or cools", then why do you ask what others think then?? "it looks like it does", haha, that's classic! You're like the Honda guys with the park bench spoiler on their trunk.....it "looks" like it gives them traction. But they don't understand that it pushes the rear down thus not helping their front wheel drive car!!
We tried to help, but we didn't give you what you wanted to hear. We didn't give you justification to cut a hole in your bumper. PM some 19yo noobs and ask them. I'm sure they will tell you you'll gain 20 whp, then you will have justification.
Why don't you cut a hole in your bumper, and do all the research for this!! Be a pioneer!! Put your degrees to work and impress up with your findings!!
Last edited by halfass872; Apr 16, 2009 at 09:16 AM.
That's so neat that you have degrees, esp the Law one, WOW!! Now you have made this into a pi$$ing match because you decided to do the "i'm gonna throw a bunch of fancy sounding words out there, then hide behind my degrees". Which always really impresses everyone on a car forum. I engineer submarine launched nuclear Missile launch systems.....and i do it all without a degree. So i guess that makes my opinion worthless to you!
I'll say it again. NO ONE CARES ABOUT THIS MOD, that's why no one has wasted their time investigating it thoroughly. If you are "not saying it rams the air, flows more, or cools", then why do you ask what others think then?? "it looks like it does", haha, that's classic! You're like the Honda guys with the park bench spoiler on their trunk.....it "looks" like it gives them traction. But they don't understand that it pushes the rear down thus not helping their front wheel drive car!!
We tried to help, but we didn't give you what you wanted to hear. We didn't give you justification to cut a hole in your bumper. PM some 19yo noobs and ask them. I'm sure they will tell you you'll gain 20 whp, then you will have justification.
Why don't you cut a hole in your bumper, and do all the research for this!! Be a pioneer!! Put your degrees to work and impress up with your findings!!
I'll say it again. NO ONE CARES ABOUT THIS MOD, that's why no one has wasted their time investigating it thoroughly. If you are "not saying it rams the air, flows more, or cools", then why do you ask what others think then?? "it looks like it does", haha, that's classic! You're like the Honda guys with the park bench spoiler on their trunk.....it "looks" like it gives them traction. But they don't understand that it pushes the rear down thus not helping their front wheel drive car!!
We tried to help, but we didn't give you what you wanted to hear. We didn't give you justification to cut a hole in your bumper. PM some 19yo noobs and ask them. I'm sure they will tell you you'll gain 20 whp, then you will have justification.
Why don't you cut a hole in your bumper, and do all the research for this!! Be a pioneer!! Put your degrees to work and impress up with your findings!!
Thread Starter
Registered User
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 548
Likes: 2
From: Tulsa, OK
That's so neat that you have degrees, esp the Law one, WOW!! Now you have made this into a pi$$ing match because you decided to do the "i'm gonna throw a bunch of fancy sounding words out there, then hide behind my degrees". Which always really impresses everyone on a car forum. I engineer submarine launched nuclear Missile launch systems.....and i do it all without a degree. So i guess that makes my opinion worthless to you!
I'll say it again. NO ONE CARES ABOUT THIS MOD, that's why no one has wasted their time investigating it thoroughly. If you are "not saying it rams the air, flows more, or cools", then why do you ask what others think then?? "it looks like it does", haha, that's classic! You're like the Honda guys with the park bench spoiler on their trunk.....it "looks" like it gives them traction. But they don't understand that it pushes the rear down thus not helping their front wheel drive car!!
We tried to help, but we didn't give you what you wanted to hear. We didn't give you justification to cut a hole in your bumper. PM some 19yo noobs and ask them. I'm sure they will tell you you'll gain 20 whp, then you will have justification.
Why don't you cut a hole in your bumper, and do all the research for this!! Be a pioneer!! Put your degrees to work and impress up with your findings!!
I'll say it again. NO ONE CARES ABOUT THIS MOD, that's why no one has wasted their time investigating it thoroughly. If you are "not saying it rams the air, flows more, or cools", then why do you ask what others think then?? "it looks like it does", haha, that's classic! You're like the Honda guys with the park bench spoiler on their trunk.....it "looks" like it gives them traction. But they don't understand that it pushes the rear down thus not helping their front wheel drive car!!
We tried to help, but we didn't give you what you wanted to hear. We didn't give you justification to cut a hole in your bumper. PM some 19yo noobs and ask them. I'm sure they will tell you you'll gain 20 whp, then you will have justification.
Why don't you cut a hole in your bumper, and do all the research for this!! Be a pioneer!! Put your degrees to work and impress up with your findings!!
2. I never asked what other people THOUGHT. Read the original post. It was about actual data and results. And this isn't about me wanting a certain opinion. I wanted data, results, and some sort of supporting evidence for EITHER conclusion. I have yet to see any - it's all been opinion and speculation based purely off of conjecture... not even personal experience with the mod.
3. You're getting unreasonably worked up over this. I'm at a loss as to where I said something offensive. I think it would be best if you just chilled the f*** out.
4th and finally. I actually just placed an order for the TiTek air duct this morning, and I'm going to conduct testing myself to confirm or deny, with ACTUAL DATA whether or not these types of modifications make a difference.
I think your attitude is really unnecessary. There's absolutely no reason to make this personal. If you think this thread is so pointless, just ignore it - nobody is making you read it.
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From: Tulsa, OK
I need to look at Cipher and see what parameters I can log that would be affected. I know intake air temp is one of them. I just need to find the others, set up a controlled experiment wherein I have tape over the duct, and do multiple runs back-to-back-to-back. That should yield the results - whatever they may be.
I'll be sure to post the results when I get them, but if anyone has anything to contribute in the meantime, please do.
2. I never asked what other people THOUGHT. Read the original post. It was about actual data and results. And this isn't about me wanting a certain opinion. I wanted data, results, and some sort of supporting evidence for EITHER conclusion. I have yet to see any - it's all been opinion and speculation based purely off of conjecture... not even personal experience with the mod.
The reason why there is no supporting ervidence is because everyone knows this is a cosmetc mod (for the third time)!! This is like asking people what they gain with the different brands of strut tower braces , over their stock brace. No one knows, because we all know it's cosmetic, so no one is gonna wast their time and money!! Not unlike this mod!!
Enjoy the hole in your bumper!
Thread Starter
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Posts: 548
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From: Tulsa, OK
You asked what people thought by posting this on a PUBLIC FORUM.
The reason why there is no supporting ervidence is because everyone knows this is a cosmetc mod (for the third time)!! This is like asking people what they gain with the different brands of strut tower braces , over their stock brace. No one knows, because we all know it's cosmetic, so no one is gonna wast their time and money!! Not unlike this mod!!
Enjoy the hole in your bumper!
The reason why there is no supporting ervidence is because everyone knows this is a cosmetc mod (for the third time)!! This is like asking people what they gain with the different brands of strut tower braces , over their stock brace. No one knows, because we all know it's cosmetic, so no one is gonna wast their time and money!! Not unlike this mod!!
Enjoy the hole in your bumper!
2. You keep telling me that "everyone knows this is a cosmetic mod" as though you telling me this is on the same level as actual data. Numerous people, on this thread alone, have voiced their curiosity as well. Even if it was a complete no-brainer, which it isn't, it isn't unreasonable to assume that someone has done some testing to prove it. If there was ever a place to ask, it would be here.
Someone even tested the infamous Turbonator to prove that it didn't yield any gains. In testing, he proved that it actually caused a decrease in power. Now most people considered it a no-brainer, but it's certainly nice to be able to say it and back it up with fact instead of just saying "everyone knows" and expecting people to take your word at it. Especially when everyone doesn't know.
I cut a hole in my bumper for a Titek duct when I installed my popcharger. Didnt notice much difference except the sound. And that was due to the popcharger. I only put the duct because I like it, its that simple. If you like it, do it! As far as real numbers, I have no clue.... I think it is probably more cosmetic though. 
I cut a hole in my bumper for a Titek duct when I installed my popcharger. Didnt notice much difference except the sound. And that was due to the popcharger. I only put the duct because I like it, its that simple. If you like it, do it! As far as real numbers, I have no clue.... I think it is probably more cosmetic though.
ya think?? 
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I think the OP asked a perfectly legit question....
But some people (actually lots) in this forum insist on jumping on threads and posting !@#$%^&* opinions to make themselves seem more knowledgeable than the next guy...maybe this makes them feel better. It sure doesn't help out anybody. This is not a bash at anybody, just what I see in this thread and many others over-and-over again. This behavior is usually exhibited in a tag-team fashion, where a second member adds posts more useless comments (not on point) and somehow they (the tag-team) find it somehow funny or amusing the someone had the audacity to ask the question. And they usually get a kick out of each others comments.
I think the "community" would have been better served if someone would have posted that no one seems to have done any hard testing, therefore there is on hard evidence available. And that folks seem to be doing the mod for looks, and possible (small) gain, due to the cheap price..
Perhaps this would have been a nice comment, and welcomed insight from an expert member with thousands of post, if he/she felt compelled to post in this thread. ( I don't think the OP sent PMs and solicited responses with your particular opinion)....Instead we have 2 pages of $hit.
OP, if you ever find a straight answer on the question or do the testing yourself, please share it....it would be nice to know for sure.
BTW....search feature sucks ( I do use it a lot, and this is my honest opinion). This is just for the folks that always jump in a say "search".
But some people (actually lots) in this forum insist on jumping on threads and posting !@#$%^&* opinions to make themselves seem more knowledgeable than the next guy...maybe this makes them feel better. It sure doesn't help out anybody. This is not a bash at anybody, just what I see in this thread and many others over-and-over again. This behavior is usually exhibited in a tag-team fashion, where a second member adds posts more useless comments (not on point) and somehow they (the tag-team) find it somehow funny or amusing the someone had the audacity to ask the question. And they usually get a kick out of each others comments.
I think the "community" would have been better served if someone would have posted that no one seems to have done any hard testing, therefore there is on hard evidence available. And that folks seem to be doing the mod for looks, and possible (small) gain, due to the cheap price..
Perhaps this would have been a nice comment, and welcomed insight from an expert member with thousands of post, if he/she felt compelled to post in this thread. ( I don't think the OP sent PMs and solicited responses with your particular opinion)....Instead we have 2 pages of $hit.
OP, if you ever find a straight answer on the question or do the testing yourself, please share it....it would be nice to know for sure.
BTW....search feature sucks ( I do use it a lot, and this is my honest opinion). This is just for the folks that always jump in a say "search".
Last edited by DATruth; Apr 16, 2009 at 04:15 PM.
Thread Starter
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Joined: May 2008
Posts: 548
Likes: 2
From: Tulsa, OK
I think the OP asked a perfectly legit question....
But some people (actually lots) in this forum insist on jumping on threads and posting !@#$%^&* opinions to make themselves seem more knowledgeable than the next guy...maybe this makes them feel better. It sure doesn't help out anybody. This is not a bash at anybody, just what I see in this thread and many others over-and-over again. This behavior is usually exhibited in a tag-team fashion, where a second member adds posts more useless comments (not on point) and somehow they (the tag-team) find it somehow funny or amusing the someone had the audacity to ask the question. And they usually get a kick out of each others comments.
I think the "community" would have been better served if someone would have posted that no one seems to have done any hard testing, therefore there is on hard evidence available. And that folks seem to be doing the mod for looks, and possible (small) gain, due to the cheap price..
Perhaps this would have been a nice comment, and welcomed insight from an expert member with thousands of post, if he/she felt compelled to post in this thread. ( I don't think the OP sent PMs and solicited responses with your particular opinion)....Instead we have 2 pages of $hit.
OP, if you ever find a straight answer on the question or do the testing yourself, please share it....it would be nice to know for sure.
BTW....search feature sucks ( I do use it a lot, and this is my honest opinion). This is just for the folks that always jump in a say "search".
But some people (actually lots) in this forum insist on jumping on threads and posting !@#$%^&* opinions to make themselves seem more knowledgeable than the next guy...maybe this makes them feel better. It sure doesn't help out anybody. This is not a bash at anybody, just what I see in this thread and many others over-and-over again. This behavior is usually exhibited in a tag-team fashion, where a second member adds posts more useless comments (not on point) and somehow they (the tag-team) find it somehow funny or amusing the someone had the audacity to ask the question. And they usually get a kick out of each others comments.
I think the "community" would have been better served if someone would have posted that no one seems to have done any hard testing, therefore there is on hard evidence available. And that folks seem to be doing the mod for looks, and possible (small) gain, due to the cheap price..
Perhaps this would have been a nice comment, and welcomed insight from an expert member with thousands of post, if he/she felt compelled to post in this thread. ( I don't think the OP sent PMs and solicited responses with your particular opinion)....Instead we have 2 pages of $hit.
OP, if you ever find a straight answer on the question or do the testing yourself, please share it....it would be nice to know for sure.
BTW....search feature sucks ( I do use it a lot, and this is my honest opinion). This is just for the folks that always jump in a say "search".