Why AEM Blows... No, not Sucks!
04-07-2004, 10:53 AM
#21
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Originally posted by Static
The length of the intake piping has little to do with the power. The point is to get cold air into your engine.. not hot air. Hence "CAI". If you are concerned about crap getting on your filter from your tire, you can always close up the holes on that side of your wheel well.. it worked great for me when I had a CAI on my Celica before this car. Believe me, its a proven fact that pop chargers start suckin up hot air and don't benefit your car as much as a CAI.. they are not as directly exposed to rapid airflow from your car moving forward as a CAI.. and thats the whole entire point of an intake system. But yes, they do allow for easier filter changing.. and still give u the cool sound.
The length of the intake piping has little to do with the power. The point is to get cold air into your engine.. not hot air. Hence "CAI". If you are concerned about crap getting on your filter from your tire, you can always close up the holes on that side of your wheel well.. it worked great for me when I had a CAI on my Celica before this car. Believe me, its a proven fact that pop chargers start suckin up hot air and don't benefit your car as much as a CAI.. they are not as directly exposed to rapid airflow from your car moving forward as a CAI.. and thats the whole entire point of an intake system. But yes, they do allow for easier filter changing.. and still give u the cool sound.
A dirty filter is a slow filter. I've had CAI's before and usually they're a better design, but for the 350Z, the JWT is KING.
04-07-2004, 05:16 PM
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i have a K&N that i can change/clean/lube it up,whatever.. it came of my 96 infiniti i30. maxima and i30 are pretty much the same. So if you want a K&N one you can change and clean, go get a maxima short ram intake .... ebay about $60 new, it comes with an aluminium adapter and the k&n intake.
To all the people that think that AEM is better.....
When driving for about 40 min. i poped the hood and checked the temp of the intake ( i tuched the metal ring) it was cold to the tuch... so that means its sucking in cold air.
To all the people that think that AEM is better.....
When driving for about 40 min. i poped the hood and checked the temp of the intake ( i tuched the metal ring) it was cold to the tuch... so that means its sucking in cold air.
04-08-2004, 08:25 AM
#26
I agree with 3rdpower...check out my thread for dyno results and track results on the AEM vs Pop-charger debate---> https://my350z.com/forum/showthread....threadid=66281
04-08-2004, 09:58 PM
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not to add fuel to the fire, but i put my extension piece back onto my injen and i did notice an increase in torque. i don't know about top end since i like quick bursts of throttle to feel the torque.
04-09-2004, 08:05 AM
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the bottom line is that we are all splitting hairs here. they are all good, and they all sound good. i'm happy with what i bought, and i'm sure you guys are all ahppy with what you bought. the horsepower increases are all approximately the same.
now come here................group hug.
now come here................group hug.
04-09-2004, 08:34 AM
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Originally posted by protocav
not to add fuel to the fire, but i put my extension piece back onto my injen and i did notice an increase in torque.
not to add fuel to the fire, but i put my extension piece back onto my injen and i did notice an increase in torque.
What did you feel? About 1 foot lbs of torque more if that........LOL......
......It was all in your head my freind.
08-16-2004, 03:18 PM
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I was researching intakes and found this old thread, sorry to open it up again, but I got some info to add.
First off, I am not just a benchtop know-it-all. The information I relate here is a direct result of my experiences as a mechanical engineer designing performance parts(including many intakes) for a major aftermarket company. I am no longer in the industry, so I can speak freely and hopefulyl dispell some of the myths clouding the mysterious intake pipe.
Lots of misinformation in this thread.
First off, yes we are splitting hairs, the money that you drop on an intake is way better spent on some wheels or tires, or some other component. The stock intake is not bad and no aftermarket one has proved to give gains worth the $200+ price tag. It is not worth our time to argue over .1 Hp, much less, a perceived .1 Hp form the old butt dyno, those things are very unreliable.
But, aftermarket intakes do look nice, and add a bit of aesthetic value to the engine bay, some people buy them strictly for that reason, which is fine.
To the guy in seattle, dont be so lazy, take care of your car, follow the recommended precedures for maintenance.
Air Temps: Question: when do want to make the most power? Answer: when you are moving. When you are moving, mass amounts of air are travel into and around the front of the car and cool everything. During periods of not moving, like stuck in traffic, all the components under hood heat up, but as soon as you start to travel again, everything cools off and eventually settles to a temperature above ambient. Do not fear warm air so much! Air density only drops about 4% for every 20 degree(F) rise in temp, you wouldnt even notice a change that small. I have done testing with thermocouples and proved that engine bay air is constantly changing temp and is not always HOT and EVIL as the marketing guys at major intake companies lead you to believe.
INtake tube shape: I read earlier that the length of the pipe has nothing to do with power. Blatantly false.
The length and the diameter has everythign to do with how it performs. THe stock system on the 350Zwas designed to fit in the space provided and provide a low restriction path for the air, which they did. Whay they did not do is tune the intake tube for length. Power gains can be picked up by adjusting the length of the intake pipe, and the diameter. When the intake valve slams shut, a high pressure waves is created in the air that slams into it. THe pressure wave travels back through the intake system, into the intake pipe and all the way to the end of the pipe, where it reflects back along the path intot he intake manifold.THe length of the pipe effects how long it takes for this pressure wave to travel out and back and can be tuned so that the pressure wave enters the intake manifold runner right when the valve is opening up and "force" air into the chamber. Remember this is happening incredibly fast and many many times per second at elevated RPMs, thats why you can actually see net gains from this. On a lot of Honda engines, you can actualyl watch the torque curve move around from dyno run to dyno run as you change the intake length.
Many stock intakes are corked up to keep the noise down, by adding an intake, you gain some great power by improvements in flow, by tuning the intake you gain even more. BUt on the 350Z, it is not corked up, so gains are harder to come by, hence the long tubes for tuning. Well long tubes dont flow as well, right? well, yes...there is more resistance in a longer pipe with bends, but it is so miniscule that the gains from the length tuning far outweight those loses. Pressure drops due to bends in the tubes are negligible, up to a point. Try dynoing an integra with nothing on the throttle body, no filter or intake system. You find that it is way down on power...why is that? THere is no intake system to restrict the flow right? so it should be amking more power than a stock intake system. BUt it doesnt, and thats were tuning comes in.
One of the probelms with the 350Z is its bitchy ECU. THe knock sensor has a lot of authority on whats going on inside the engine.The ECU is constantly adjusting timing based on a variety of inputs. Dynoing a 350Z is not a straightforward task, it requires hi octane fuel (over 100), and shutting the car off after every run to clear a portion of the memory of the ECU. Even then, it can be inconsistent as hell. Gains from a particular bolt-on can be immediately erased with a small adjustment in timing by the ECU.
Filter area: More filter area does not mean more flow or less pressure drop, it simply means you can go longer between filter change intervals, thats all. What the filter is made of has the effect of altering the pressure drop across the filter, as long as you have the minimum required filtering area, anything more is not beneficial from a performance standpoint. The stock 350Z has a paper style filter. The reason they dont use a cotton/gauze one from the factory (like a K&N) is that they dont filter as well as the paper(bad for engine life), but they do flow better(good for performance).
Water: A little water splash does not hurt anything, if anything it helps cool the combustion process and is good for knock resistance. Full submersion of your fitler, is bad, but if that happens, then you shouldnt be out driving around in that storm in your new sports car, and you shouldnt have tried to make it across that lake.
hope that helps clear up some rumors surrounding intake designs.
In summary, stick with the stock one unless you want a little more bling.
-A
First off, I am not just a benchtop know-it-all. The information I relate here is a direct result of my experiences as a mechanical engineer designing performance parts(including many intakes) for a major aftermarket company. I am no longer in the industry, so I can speak freely and hopefulyl dispell some of the myths clouding the mysterious intake pipe.
Lots of misinformation in this thread.
First off, yes we are splitting hairs, the money that you drop on an intake is way better spent on some wheels or tires, or some other component. The stock intake is not bad and no aftermarket one has proved to give gains worth the $200+ price tag. It is not worth our time to argue over .1 Hp, much less, a perceived .1 Hp form the old butt dyno, those things are very unreliable.
But, aftermarket intakes do look nice, and add a bit of aesthetic value to the engine bay, some people buy them strictly for that reason, which is fine.
To the guy in seattle, dont be so lazy, take care of your car, follow the recommended precedures for maintenance.
Air Temps: Question: when do want to make the most power? Answer: when you are moving. When you are moving, mass amounts of air are travel into and around the front of the car and cool everything. During periods of not moving, like stuck in traffic, all the components under hood heat up, but as soon as you start to travel again, everything cools off and eventually settles to a temperature above ambient. Do not fear warm air so much! Air density only drops about 4% for every 20 degree(F) rise in temp, you wouldnt even notice a change that small. I have done testing with thermocouples and proved that engine bay air is constantly changing temp and is not always HOT and EVIL as the marketing guys at major intake companies lead you to believe.
INtake tube shape: I read earlier that the length of the pipe has nothing to do with power. Blatantly false.
The length and the diameter has everythign to do with how it performs. THe stock system on the 350Zwas designed to fit in the space provided and provide a low restriction path for the air, which they did. Whay they did not do is tune the intake tube for length. Power gains can be picked up by adjusting the length of the intake pipe, and the diameter. When the intake valve slams shut, a high pressure waves is created in the air that slams into it. THe pressure wave travels back through the intake system, into the intake pipe and all the way to the end of the pipe, where it reflects back along the path intot he intake manifold.THe length of the pipe effects how long it takes for this pressure wave to travel out and back and can be tuned so that the pressure wave enters the intake manifold runner right when the valve is opening up and "force" air into the chamber. Remember this is happening incredibly fast and many many times per second at elevated RPMs, thats why you can actually see net gains from this. On a lot of Honda engines, you can actualyl watch the torque curve move around from dyno run to dyno run as you change the intake length.
Many stock intakes are corked up to keep the noise down, by adding an intake, you gain some great power by improvements in flow, by tuning the intake you gain even more. BUt on the 350Z, it is not corked up, so gains are harder to come by, hence the long tubes for tuning. Well long tubes dont flow as well, right? well, yes...there is more resistance in a longer pipe with bends, but it is so miniscule that the gains from the length tuning far outweight those loses. Pressure drops due to bends in the tubes are negligible, up to a point. Try dynoing an integra with nothing on the throttle body, no filter or intake system. You find that it is way down on power...why is that? THere is no intake system to restrict the flow right? so it should be amking more power than a stock intake system. BUt it doesnt, and thats were tuning comes in.
One of the probelms with the 350Z is its bitchy ECU. THe knock sensor has a lot of authority on whats going on inside the engine.The ECU is constantly adjusting timing based on a variety of inputs. Dynoing a 350Z is not a straightforward task, it requires hi octane fuel (over 100), and shutting the car off after every run to clear a portion of the memory of the ECU. Even then, it can be inconsistent as hell. Gains from a particular bolt-on can be immediately erased with a small adjustment in timing by the ECU.
Filter area: More filter area does not mean more flow or less pressure drop, it simply means you can go longer between filter change intervals, thats all. What the filter is made of has the effect of altering the pressure drop across the filter, as long as you have the minimum required filtering area, anything more is not beneficial from a performance standpoint. The stock 350Z has a paper style filter. The reason they dont use a cotton/gauze one from the factory (like a K&N) is that they dont filter as well as the paper(bad for engine life), but they do flow better(good for performance).
Water: A little water splash does not hurt anything, if anything it helps cool the combustion process and is good for knock resistance. Full submersion of your fitler, is bad, but if that happens, then you shouldnt be out driving around in that storm in your new sports car, and you shouldnt have tried to make it across that lake.
hope that helps clear up some rumors surrounding intake designs.
In summary, stick with the stock one unless you want a little more bling.
-A
08-17-2004, 06:10 AM
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Good info here! Thnks!
Originally posted by compression
I was researching intakes and found this old thread, sorry to open it up again, but I got some info to add.
First off, I am not just a benchtop know-it-all. The information I relate here is a direct result of my experiences as a mechanical engineer designing performance parts(including many intakes) for a major aftermarket company. I am no longer in the industry, so I can speak freely and hopefulyl dispell some of the myths clouding the mysterious intake pipe.
Lots of misinformation in this thread.
First off, yes we are splitting hairs, the money that you drop on an intake is way better spent on some wheels or tires, or some other component. The stock intake is not bad and no aftermarket one has proved to give gains worth the $200+ price tag. It is not worth our time to argue over .1 Hp, much less, a perceived .1 Hp form the old butt dyno, those things are very unreliable.
But, aftermarket intakes do look nice, and add a bit of aesthetic value to the engine bay, some people buy them strictly for that reason, which is fine.
To the guy in seattle, dont be so lazy, take care of your car, follow the recommended precedures for maintenance.
Air Temps: Question: when do want to make the most power? Answer: when you are moving. When you are moving, mass amounts of air are travel into and around the front of the car and cool everything. During periods of not moving, like stuck in traffic, all the components under hood heat up, but as soon as you start to travel again, everything cools off and eventually settles to a temperature above ambient. Do not fear warm air so much! Air density only drops about 4% for every 20 degree(F) rise in temp, you wouldnt even notice a change that small. I have done testing with thermocouples and proved that engine bay air is constantly changing temp and is not always HOT and EVIL as the marketing guys at major intake companies lead you to believe.
INtake tube shape: I read earlier that the length of the pipe has nothing to do with power. Blatantly false.
The length and the diameter has everythign to do with how it performs. THe stock system on the 350Zwas designed to fit in the space provided and provide a low restriction path for the air, which they did. Whay they did not do is tune the intake tube for length. Power gains can be picked up by adjusting the length of the intake pipe, and the diameter. When the intake valve slams shut, a high pressure waves is created in the air that slams into it. THe pressure wave travels back through the intake system, into the intake pipe and all the way to the end of the pipe, where it reflects back along the path intot he intake manifold.THe length of the pipe effects how long it takes for this pressure wave to travel out and back and can be tuned so that the pressure wave enters the intake manifold runner right when the valve is opening up and "force" air into the chamber. Remember this is happening incredibly fast and many many times per second at elevated RPMs, thats why you can actually see net gains from this. On a lot of Honda engines, you can actualyl watch the torque curve move around from dyno run to dyno run as you change the intake length.
Many stock intakes are corked up to keep the noise down, by adding an intake, you gain some great power by improvements in flow, by tuning the intake you gain even more. BUt on the 350Z, it is not corked up, so gains are harder to come by, hence the long tubes for tuning. Well long tubes dont flow as well, right? well, yes...there is more resistance in a longer pipe with bends, but it is so miniscule that the gains from the length tuning far outweight those loses. Pressure drops due to bends in the tubes are negligible, up to a point. Try dynoing an integra with nothing on the throttle body, no filter or intake system. You find that it is way down on power...why is that? THere is no intake system to restrict the flow right? so it should be amking more power than a stock intake system. BUt it doesnt, and thats were tuning comes in.
One of the probelms with the 350Z is its bitchy ECU. THe knock sensor has a lot of authority on whats going on inside the engine.The ECU is constantly adjusting timing based on a variety of inputs. Dynoing a 350Z is not a straightforward task, it requires hi octane fuel (over 100), and shutting the car off after every run to clear a portion of the memory of the ECU. Even then, it can be inconsistent as hell. Gains from a particular bolt-on can be immediately erased with a small adjustment in timing by the ECU.
Filter area: More filter area does not mean more flow or less pressure drop, it simply means you can go longer between filter change intervals, thats all. What the filter is made of has the effect of altering the pressure drop across the filter, as long as you have the minimum required filtering area, anything more is not beneficial from a performance standpoint. The stock 350Z has a paper style filter. The reason they dont use a cotton/gauze one from the factory (like a K&N) is that they dont filter as well as the paper(bad for engine life), but they do flow better(good for performance).
Water: A little water splash does not hurt anything, if anything it helps cool the combustion process and is good for knock resistance. Full submersion of your fitler, is bad, but if that happens, then you shouldnt be out driving around in that storm in your new sports car, and you shouldnt have tried to make it across that lake.
hope that helps clear up some rumors surrounding intake designs.
In summary, stick with the stock one unless you want a little more bling.
-A
I was researching intakes and found this old thread, sorry to open it up again, but I got some info to add.
First off, I am not just a benchtop know-it-all. The information I relate here is a direct result of my experiences as a mechanical engineer designing performance parts(including many intakes) for a major aftermarket company. I am no longer in the industry, so I can speak freely and hopefulyl dispell some of the myths clouding the mysterious intake pipe.
Lots of misinformation in this thread.
First off, yes we are splitting hairs, the money that you drop on an intake is way better spent on some wheels or tires, or some other component. The stock intake is not bad and no aftermarket one has proved to give gains worth the $200+ price tag. It is not worth our time to argue over .1 Hp, much less, a perceived .1 Hp form the old butt dyno, those things are very unreliable.
But, aftermarket intakes do look nice, and add a bit of aesthetic value to the engine bay, some people buy them strictly for that reason, which is fine.
To the guy in seattle, dont be so lazy, take care of your car, follow the recommended precedures for maintenance.
Air Temps: Question: when do want to make the most power? Answer: when you are moving. When you are moving, mass amounts of air are travel into and around the front of the car and cool everything. During periods of not moving, like stuck in traffic, all the components under hood heat up, but as soon as you start to travel again, everything cools off and eventually settles to a temperature above ambient. Do not fear warm air so much! Air density only drops about 4% for every 20 degree(F) rise in temp, you wouldnt even notice a change that small. I have done testing with thermocouples and proved that engine bay air is constantly changing temp and is not always HOT and EVIL as the marketing guys at major intake companies lead you to believe.
INtake tube shape: I read earlier that the length of the pipe has nothing to do with power. Blatantly false.
The length and the diameter has everythign to do with how it performs. THe stock system on the 350Zwas designed to fit in the space provided and provide a low restriction path for the air, which they did. Whay they did not do is tune the intake tube for length. Power gains can be picked up by adjusting the length of the intake pipe, and the diameter. When the intake valve slams shut, a high pressure waves is created in the air that slams into it. THe pressure wave travels back through the intake system, into the intake pipe and all the way to the end of the pipe, where it reflects back along the path intot he intake manifold.THe length of the pipe effects how long it takes for this pressure wave to travel out and back and can be tuned so that the pressure wave enters the intake manifold runner right when the valve is opening up and "force" air into the chamber. Remember this is happening incredibly fast and many many times per second at elevated RPMs, thats why you can actually see net gains from this. On a lot of Honda engines, you can actualyl watch the torque curve move around from dyno run to dyno run as you change the intake length.
Many stock intakes are corked up to keep the noise down, by adding an intake, you gain some great power by improvements in flow, by tuning the intake you gain even more. BUt on the 350Z, it is not corked up, so gains are harder to come by, hence the long tubes for tuning. Well long tubes dont flow as well, right? well, yes...there is more resistance in a longer pipe with bends, but it is so miniscule that the gains from the length tuning far outweight those loses. Pressure drops due to bends in the tubes are negligible, up to a point. Try dynoing an integra with nothing on the throttle body, no filter or intake system. You find that it is way down on power...why is that? THere is no intake system to restrict the flow right? so it should be amking more power than a stock intake system. BUt it doesnt, and thats were tuning comes in.
One of the probelms with the 350Z is its bitchy ECU. THe knock sensor has a lot of authority on whats going on inside the engine.The ECU is constantly adjusting timing based on a variety of inputs. Dynoing a 350Z is not a straightforward task, it requires hi octane fuel (over 100), and shutting the car off after every run to clear a portion of the memory of the ECU. Even then, it can be inconsistent as hell. Gains from a particular bolt-on can be immediately erased with a small adjustment in timing by the ECU.
Filter area: More filter area does not mean more flow or less pressure drop, it simply means you can go longer between filter change intervals, thats all. What the filter is made of has the effect of altering the pressure drop across the filter, as long as you have the minimum required filtering area, anything more is not beneficial from a performance standpoint. The stock 350Z has a paper style filter. The reason they dont use a cotton/gauze one from the factory (like a K&N) is that they dont filter as well as the paper(bad for engine life), but they do flow better(good for performance).
Water: A little water splash does not hurt anything, if anything it helps cool the combustion process and is good for knock resistance. Full submersion of your fitler, is bad, but if that happens, then you shouldnt be out driving around in that storm in your new sports car, and you shouldnt have tried to make it across that lake.
hope that helps clear up some rumors surrounding intake designs.
In summary, stick with the stock one unless you want a little more bling.
-A
08-18-2004, 10:05 AM
#38
You will all regret this when the EMS is out for this motor.
If I lived in a rainy area and cleaned my filter after 1.5 years, I'd kick my own ***. That's on you.
You won't see the real gains of the intake until you can optimize how the ecu is reading it. In general cold air is better than hot for any car. Short rams are proven to work as long as the car is moving and there aren't any hot spots under the hood that trap air.
In any case you want to maximize the pressure wave as soon as the intake valve opens for any intake. And you can only do this with length and diameter testing. So length and diamter are most important on an intake.
It's funny to see that changing to a Z, how many people are still misinformed.
If I lived in a rainy area and cleaned my filter after 1.5 years, I'd kick my own ***. That's on you.
You won't see the real gains of the intake until you can optimize how the ecu is reading it. In general cold air is better than hot for any car. Short rams are proven to work as long as the car is moving and there aren't any hot spots under the hood that trap air.
In any case you want to maximize the pressure wave as soon as the intake valve opens for any intake. And you can only do this with length and diameter testing. So length and diamter are most important on an intake.
It's funny to see that changing to a Z, how many people are still misinformed.
08-18-2004, 10:15 AM
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EMS? As in a programmable stand alone?
Now I know the 350 is throttle-by-wire, will the EMS handle those duties and do it reliably? Seems like a lot of responsibility for an aftermarket computer to handle and it might open the door to liability lawsuits if there ever was a problem.
Or maybe a cable operated throttle conversion kit will be included with the EMS? that would make a little more sense.
Cant wait to see it.
Now I know the 350 is throttle-by-wire, will the EMS handle those duties and do it reliably? Seems like a lot of responsibility for an aftermarket computer to handle and it might open the door to liability lawsuits if there ever was a problem.
Or maybe a cable operated throttle conversion kit will be included with the EMS? that would make a little more sense.
Cant wait to see it.
08-18-2004, 10:38 AM
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you should have noticed a power decrease due to the dirty filter....thats a good indicator that it needs to be cleaned. i have the k&n drop in and i can tell a difference in power when the filter gets dirty....after all, this affects the ability of the engine to breathe....lates