Kinetix Plenum: Catastrophic failure @ 80mph... stranded middle of nowhere!!!
thats very cool. i have had very professional feedback from kinetix throughout the purchasing process of all the parts i had ordered from them & the fact that they are working with wren on the towing situation is very professional indeed!
-justin
-justin
so when can we expect the f/i plenum?i want it
and does it look like the prototype pics that were released some time ago?
and how long out is it?
and does it look like the prototype pics that were released some time ago?
and how long out is it?
Originally posted by lsdunique
Wren,
I apologize, I had not read your post before I had called you, so I did not know you had requested for towing compensation. If I had known I would have addressed it in our conversation.
You can email me at jamisonl@msn.com and we can talk about making good on the towing charges.
I dont want anyone to feel pressured into running the plenum, nor would I want anyone to purchase if they were sincerely worried. I think only time will eliminate worries, and we are confident in our long term goals, so we would rather have the full confidence of our customers.
It is a shame though that we chose to devote such a large part of our operation to a product with so many variables, because we have lost the confidence of our market. We take a lot of pride in our products and brand name. We had worked hard to gain the confidence of the board members in the past, but we think in the future we will re-gain the level of confidence from the 350z market.
I can say that I am relieved that our next 2 products coming (FI manifold, and y-pipe) are made with more "conventional" methods
Wren,
I apologize, I had not read your post before I had called you, so I did not know you had requested for towing compensation. If I had known I would have addressed it in our conversation.
You can email me at jamisonl@msn.com and we can talk about making good on the towing charges.
I dont want anyone to feel pressured into running the plenum, nor would I want anyone to purchase if they were sincerely worried. I think only time will eliminate worries, and we are confident in our long term goals, so we would rather have the full confidence of our customers.
It is a shame though that we chose to devote such a large part of our operation to a product with so many variables, because we have lost the confidence of our market. We take a lot of pride in our products and brand name. We had worked hard to gain the confidence of the board members in the past, but we think in the future we will re-gain the level of confidence from the 350z market.
I can say that I am relieved that our next 2 products coming (FI manifold, and y-pipe) are made with more "conventional" methods
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From: Charlotte, NC
Originally posted by myz8a4re
thats very cool. i have had very professional feedback from kinetix throughout the purchasing process of all the parts i had ordered from them & the fact that they are working with wren on the towing situation is very professional indeed!
-justin
thats very cool. i have had very professional feedback from kinetix throughout the purchasing process of all the parts i had ordered from them & the fact that they are working with wren on the towing situation is very professional indeed!
-justin
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Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 155
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From: amsterdam ny
The 00-01 maximas have a composite manifold stock which is also a variable intake I installed it on my 96 max the heat soak is gone now and engine is alot smoother.
The walls appear to be around 3/16 thick.
When i get a 350 z i will get one of these plenums i hope the issues are solved
The walls appear to be around 3/16 thick.
When i get a 350 z i will get one of these plenums i hope the issues are solved
jonathan, i agree, there are some weak links. im still giving them a chance since my situations have been on a professional level. only wanted to state my experience with them.........
-justin
-justin
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 1,612
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From: Massillon, OH
Wren,
Sorry to hear about your plenum failure. I too have a cracked plenum and last weekend I slathered the top with silicone (similar to what you did) to seal up the hairline cracks until my replacement V4 arrived. I did get a notification from lsdunique that until I recieved my replacement (in 10 days) I should put the stock plenum back on. My problem was the same as yours that I am pretty much sick and tired of uninstalling plenums and reinstalling plenums. I had hoped it would have been here by now (lsdunique had told me 10 days when I originally contacted him about 3 weeks ago) and I just recieved a PM from him that it would ship this Friday or Monday at the latest.
Based on what happened to you, I guess I'll be replacing the plenum with the stock one today.
-Chris
Sorry to hear about your plenum failure. I too have a cracked plenum and last weekend I slathered the top with silicone (similar to what you did) to seal up the hairline cracks until my replacement V4 arrived. I did get a notification from lsdunique that until I recieved my replacement (in 10 days) I should put the stock plenum back on. My problem was the same as yours that I am pretty much sick and tired of uninstalling plenums and reinstalling plenums. I had hoped it would have been here by now (lsdunique had told me 10 days when I originally contacted him about 3 weeks ago) and I just recieved a PM from him that it would ship this Friday or Monday at the latest.
Based on what happened to you, I guess I'll be replacing the plenum with the stock one today.
-Chris
That sucks wren.
I still have my v3. I've put about 600 miles on it with the vortech and so far so good. One good thing about my experience with this plenum, is that I can change the plenum in like 1.5 hours flat!
(for all the bashers about fi and this plenum, if I don't reply, it's cause I'm stuck in the freakin' hospital and can't write)
I still have my v3. I've put about 600 miles on it with the vortech and so far so good. One good thing about my experience with this plenum, is that I can change the plenum in like 1.5 hours flat!
(for all the bashers about fi and this plenum, if I don't reply, it's cause I'm stuck in the freakin' hospital and can't write)
Originally posted by Loren04G35
wren57,
My first question is, couldn't you find some duct tape? You know if duct tape can't fix it, its broke. After all you were in Alabama.
I don't believe the problem is that the Kinetix is plastic vesus metal or the basic design. I don't believe changing the casting to put more material in certain areas is going to provide any long term fix. I don't believe though that continually similar version changes is going to eliminate the problems. Looking at the Kinetix versus other OEM plastic intakes (4th gen Maximas, LS1s and LS5s), there is a major material difference. I believe the actual problem is either related to the flexibility or the thermal expansion characteristics of the plastic being used.
If it is a thermal problem, then the material is going through an expansion as it heats. Since is it fixed by the mounting bolts, it could actually expand so much that it has expanded further than what is allowed by the bolt hole locations and as a result it cracks. The fix for this would be a plastic of lower thermal expansion characteristics. To be used as an intake, they must use a plastic that has a similar expansion rate to aluminum, which it is attached to.
The other possibility is the material may be too hard. An engine is essentually a connection of harmonic characteristis. Each piston moving up and down is going to make harmonics. Each valve moving is going to make harmonics. The serpentine belt makes harmonics. Even inlet air as it goes from every turn from the air filter makes harmonics. The problem is that each of these harmonics is going to exert stress on engine components, including the intake manifold, in different ways. Intense enough harmonics could actually shake cracks into the plenum if it is not flexable enough to absorb them.
In either case, it is obvious that their should be a material change and not just a cating change. Unfortunately, I don't know how the intake was designed. Normally from an OEM, what may seem like a simple manifold design actually takes a team of engineers months to accomplish. An aero engineer designs the internal passages and 3D models it. This gives the surface area for mechanica engineers to determine stress points and design reinforcements. Then an analysis is made on thermal expension rate by looking at all the materials between the manifold and the combustion chamber (highest point of heat). A thermal/chemical engineer uses this to design a compatible material that will be used. Aluminum is obviously a natural choice due to its thermal characteristics for heat expansion and flexibility. Plastics and ceramics on the other hand are a lot harder to figure out. I wish them luck in figuring it out.
wren57,
My first question is, couldn't you find some duct tape? You know if duct tape can't fix it, its broke. After all you were in Alabama.
I don't believe the problem is that the Kinetix is plastic vesus metal or the basic design. I don't believe changing the casting to put more material in certain areas is going to provide any long term fix. I don't believe though that continually similar version changes is going to eliminate the problems. Looking at the Kinetix versus other OEM plastic intakes (4th gen Maximas, LS1s and LS5s), there is a major material difference. I believe the actual problem is either related to the flexibility or the thermal expansion characteristics of the plastic being used.
If it is a thermal problem, then the material is going through an expansion as it heats. Since is it fixed by the mounting bolts, it could actually expand so much that it has expanded further than what is allowed by the bolt hole locations and as a result it cracks. The fix for this would be a plastic of lower thermal expansion characteristics. To be used as an intake, they must use a plastic that has a similar expansion rate to aluminum, which it is attached to.
The other possibility is the material may be too hard. An engine is essentually a connection of harmonic characteristis. Each piston moving up and down is going to make harmonics. Each valve moving is going to make harmonics. The serpentine belt makes harmonics. Even inlet air as it goes from every turn from the air filter makes harmonics. The problem is that each of these harmonics is going to exert stress on engine components, including the intake manifold, in different ways. Intense enough harmonics could actually shake cracks into the plenum if it is not flexable enough to absorb them.
In either case, it is obvious that their should be a material change and not just a cating change. Unfortunately, I don't know how the intake was designed. Normally from an OEM, what may seem like a simple manifold design actually takes a team of engineers months to accomplish. An aero engineer designs the internal passages and 3D models it. This gives the surface area for mechanica engineers to determine stress points and design reinforcements. Then an analysis is made on thermal expension rate by looking at all the materials between the manifold and the combustion chamber (highest point of heat). A thermal/chemical engineer uses this to design a compatible material that will be used. Aluminum is obviously a natural choice due to its thermal characteristics for heat expansion and flexibility. Plastics and ceramics on the other hand are a lot harder to figure out. I wish them luck in figuring it out.
I guess it's possible that this plenum could be made from a mold, allowing for more materials to be used, but still think the aluminum casting (preferrably hipped) is the best way to go...
Still, I'd pay $700-$800 for an aluminum plenum that gives more hp than an $1100-$1200 Stillen Exhaust! Something for the folks at Kinetix to think about...
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Joined: Aug 2003
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From: Massillon, OH
Originally posted by neffster
Still, I'd pay $700-$800 for an aluminum plenum that gives more hp than an $1100-$1200 Stillen Exhaust! Something for the folks at Kinetix to think about...
Still, I'd pay $700-$800 for an aluminum plenum that gives more hp than an $1100-$1200 Stillen Exhaust! Something for the folks at Kinetix to think about...
Gosh
You guys are already salivating about Kinetix's yet to be issued stuff after this? I guess there's a sucker born every minute. A smooth sincere sounding talker is all it takes. Hey, I've got a bridge I want to sell, anyone interested?
Lou
You guys are already salivating about Kinetix's yet to be issued stuff after this? I guess there's a sucker born every minute. A smooth sincere sounding talker is all it takes. Hey, I've got a bridge I want to sell, anyone interested?
Lou
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 55
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From: Los Angeles
lou,
tobacco is an integral part of the american economy and history. it's been around since before the united states was a country. the industry has mustered up such a huge consumer base and wields such political power that it's not going to be eliminated until people are fully educated on the matter. even 60 years ago, there were ads with doctors recommending cigarettes as a healthy way to relax!!! and long term studies are JUST NOW concluding and showing that cigarette use is linked to shorter lifespans. smoking has such a gradual effect that these longer studies are necessary to fully explore its capabilities. and to get at the root of the problem and have maximum effect, tobacco education needs to be integrated into public school cirriculums, which it very recently has been (i'm 19 and just graduated from high school a year ago). the truth is, we can't be sure at this point if new generations will continue to smoke in spite of the fact that it is unhealthy. it will take a long, long time to realize the full effect of the discovery that tobacco use is detrimental... time that has not elapsed yet. so you can't just say that people continue smoking despite knowing that it's harmful. the tobacco companies had to pay people for damages because they falsely advertised their product as healthy. if you noticed, that has been fixed with a surgeon general's warning on every box of cigarettes. tobacco companies only offer the product. it's up to the consumer to decide whether or not to use it. the tobacco companies are paying because they misrepresented the affect the product would have on people's health, which affected people's choices on whether or not to smoke. now that everyone knows the cigarettes are unhealthy, you won't see lawsuits 50 years down the road when everyone who has been deceived on the matter is no longer around. your argument there is invalid.
as for firestone, they have a very large number of consumers, some of whom probably never care enough to watch the news or pay attention to things that affect them. it's impossible to reach EVERY SINGLE person that is using a recalled product and every individual recalled item and those stragglers are the ones that are still causing lawsuits.
the point (which you're STILL not getting) is, wren wasn't one of those unaware people who had no clue what was going on. he ADMITTED to having seen the cracks more than a week before it exploded/imploded (whatever the case may be) and he knew firsthand that kinetix plenums weren't exactly built to the strongest standard. slathering silicone on it (unless kinetix advised it as a fix durable enough to withstand long periods of travel) isn't going to keep kinetix liable for further failure. product liability goes only as far as up until wren discovered the crack. at that point, the PRODUCT FAILED and kinetix is liable to replace it or refund wren the money. but wren CONTINUED TO RUN THE CAR ON A BROKEN PLENUM (i'm sorry... i don't know how to make this any clearer). kinetix didn't tell him to use his car with a broken plenum... wren made the decision and he's responsible for it. pain and suffering is only awarded to people who were damaged as a direct result of wrongdoing. the wrongdoing in this case that caused the pain and suffering (towing bill in this case) is wren's decision to continue using the plenum after it broke.
i'll give you the time it took to keep replacing the plenums. maybe kinetix should pay wren for that, but that's still a bit of a stretch for me.
uberfaybk
now, i don't want it to look like i'm bashing wren for not wanting to change plenums or for wanting his towing bill too. his experience totally sucked and in all honesty, i do hope that wren gets his towing money from kinetix as a nice gesture. but i also can't stand by and watch as people falsely claim that kinetix is liable for the towing bill.
this is the kind of headache that i always try to avoid by not purchasing a product as soon as it hits the market. there will always be sub-par items that are not worth jack in their initial condition. i wait for reviews of products and improvements (if necessary) so that i can avoid putting myself in a situation similar to wren's.
people (americans, for sure) tend to get lazy about doing their homework (used figuratively... as i'm still in school
) and educating themselves. they then expect others to pay for their mistakes that could have been very easily prevented. why put yourself in a situation where bad things might happen (like wren did)? exactly... you shouldn't. empower yourself and take charge over matters that affect you.
REAL MEN MAKE THEIR OWN LUCK
tobacco is an integral part of the american economy and history. it's been around since before the united states was a country. the industry has mustered up such a huge consumer base and wields such political power that it's not going to be eliminated until people are fully educated on the matter. even 60 years ago, there were ads with doctors recommending cigarettes as a healthy way to relax!!! and long term studies are JUST NOW concluding and showing that cigarette use is linked to shorter lifespans. smoking has such a gradual effect that these longer studies are necessary to fully explore its capabilities. and to get at the root of the problem and have maximum effect, tobacco education needs to be integrated into public school cirriculums, which it very recently has been (i'm 19 and just graduated from high school a year ago). the truth is, we can't be sure at this point if new generations will continue to smoke in spite of the fact that it is unhealthy. it will take a long, long time to realize the full effect of the discovery that tobacco use is detrimental... time that has not elapsed yet. so you can't just say that people continue smoking despite knowing that it's harmful. the tobacco companies had to pay people for damages because they falsely advertised their product as healthy. if you noticed, that has been fixed with a surgeon general's warning on every box of cigarettes. tobacco companies only offer the product. it's up to the consumer to decide whether or not to use it. the tobacco companies are paying because they misrepresented the affect the product would have on people's health, which affected people's choices on whether or not to smoke. now that everyone knows the cigarettes are unhealthy, you won't see lawsuits 50 years down the road when everyone who has been deceived on the matter is no longer around. your argument there is invalid.
as for firestone, they have a very large number of consumers, some of whom probably never care enough to watch the news or pay attention to things that affect them. it's impossible to reach EVERY SINGLE person that is using a recalled product and every individual recalled item and those stragglers are the ones that are still causing lawsuits.
the point (which you're STILL not getting) is, wren wasn't one of those unaware people who had no clue what was going on. he ADMITTED to having seen the cracks more than a week before it exploded/imploded (whatever the case may be) and he knew firsthand that kinetix plenums weren't exactly built to the strongest standard. slathering silicone on it (unless kinetix advised it as a fix durable enough to withstand long periods of travel) isn't going to keep kinetix liable for further failure. product liability goes only as far as up until wren discovered the crack. at that point, the PRODUCT FAILED and kinetix is liable to replace it or refund wren the money. but wren CONTINUED TO RUN THE CAR ON A BROKEN PLENUM (i'm sorry... i don't know how to make this any clearer). kinetix didn't tell him to use his car with a broken plenum... wren made the decision and he's responsible for it. pain and suffering is only awarded to people who were damaged as a direct result of wrongdoing. the wrongdoing in this case that caused the pain and suffering (towing bill in this case) is wren's decision to continue using the plenum after it broke.
i'll give you the time it took to keep replacing the plenums. maybe kinetix should pay wren for that, but that's still a bit of a stretch for me.
uberfaybk
now, i don't want it to look like i'm bashing wren for not wanting to change plenums or for wanting his towing bill too. his experience totally sucked and in all honesty, i do hope that wren gets his towing money from kinetix as a nice gesture. but i also can't stand by and watch as people falsely claim that kinetix is liable for the towing bill.
this is the kind of headache that i always try to avoid by not purchasing a product as soon as it hits the market. there will always be sub-par items that are not worth jack in their initial condition. i wait for reviews of products and improvements (if necessary) so that i can avoid putting myself in a situation similar to wren's.
people (americans, for sure) tend to get lazy about doing their homework (used figuratively... as i'm still in school
) and educating themselves. they then expect others to pay for their mistakes that could have been very easily prevented. why put yourself in a situation where bad things might happen (like wren did)? exactly... you shouldn't. empower yourself and take charge over matters that affect you. REAL MEN MAKE THEIR OWN LUCK
Last edited by uberfaybk; Jul 6, 2004 at 07:31 PM.
V4
Originally posted by lsdunique
well, its been a while since I have been on the boards and we should have been paying more attention to the public.
My apologies to Wren, I just spoke with him on the phone.
I apologized to Wren, I make it a point to tell people to remove a cracked plenum and install the factory plenum, but I must have missed it with Wren when he notified me of the crack on June 18th.
True, longer testing periods initially and between versions should have been practiced, that is definately our fault and a MISTAKE we are paying for.
We have spent tens of thousands of dollars trying to leave no one out in cold, and accomodate all of our customers, even when this means getting taken advantage of by some of our customers.
Our inability to answer phones is also our fault, we are simply understaffed and the plenum problems have drastically increased our work load, but I had made several points to contact me personally at jamisonl@msn.com because I can check that email address round the clock.
We will continue to progress forward, and hopefully we will be able to look back at the plenum, with a lot of lessons learned, and still be able to bring out cool products at good prices.
My apologies again to Wren, as he was one of our great customers originally, who actually helped develop the plenum by sending in his JIC strut tower for fitments. He has said he will continue to be our customer in the future, so thanks for that.
well, its been a while since I have been on the boards and we should have been paying more attention to the public.
My apologies to Wren, I just spoke with him on the phone.
I apologized to Wren, I make it a point to tell people to remove a cracked plenum and install the factory plenum, but I must have missed it with Wren when he notified me of the crack on June 18th.
True, longer testing periods initially and between versions should have been practiced, that is definately our fault and a MISTAKE we are paying for.
We have spent tens of thousands of dollars trying to leave no one out in cold, and accomodate all of our customers, even when this means getting taken advantage of by some of our customers.
Our inability to answer phones is also our fault, we are simply understaffed and the plenum problems have drastically increased our work load, but I had made several points to contact me personally at jamisonl@msn.com because I can check that email address round the clock.
We will continue to progress forward, and hopefully we will be able to look back at the plenum, with a lot of lessons learned, and still be able to bring out cool products at good prices.
My apologies again to Wren, as he was one of our great customers originally, who actually helped develop the plenum by sending in his JIC strut tower for fitments. He has said he will continue to be our customer in the future, so thanks for that.
I need to know what kind and how much testing you did on v4 prior to its release. To what extent do you stand behind this new version? Or is it just yet another case of "if we build it, they will come"? At this point, free replacement or a full refund does nothing to improve my confidence in your product because its just more of the same. To what extent are you willing to stand behind this new version? If it is no better than your previous policy, it means to me that you
expect no better performance from this
version than you did from the previous ones; it means nothing has changed.
I anxiously await your response because i bot your plenum via the group buy, and i just rec'd info that it will arrive tomorrow.
Last edited by Z BOY; Jul 6, 2004 at 11:51 PM.
Registered User
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 132
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From: Arlington, VA
After reading this post I went home yesterday and checked my v.3 plenum. Sure enough, it's cracked around the front center bolt. The largest crack runs from the front of the center bolt towards the strut bar. Not sure how much longer the plenum will last so I guess I'll swap it out for the stock this weekend. I hope it doesn't fail before then.
TIP: For those checking your plenums -- make sure to check it over with the engine running. The cracks on my plenum were invisible with engine off, but became large and visible as soon as I started the car.
Has anyone who sent their v.3 back actually received a v.4 yet? I may just ask for a refund...
TIP: For those checking your plenums -- make sure to check it over with the engine running. The cracks on my plenum were invisible with engine off, but became large and visible as soon as I started the car.
Has anyone who sent their v.3 back actually received a v.4 yet? I may just ask for a refund...
Originally posted by theZman
...
Has anyone who sent their v.3 back actually received a v.4 yet? I may just ask for a refund...
...
Has anyone who sent their v.3 back actually received a v.4 yet? I may just ask for a refund...
Registered User
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 1,612
Likes: 0
From: Massillon, OH
Originally posted by theZman
Has anyone who sent their v.3 back actually received a v.4 yet? I may just ask for a refund...
Has anyone who sent their v.3 back actually received a v.4 yet? I may just ask for a refund...
-Chris
Registered User
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 244
Likes: 0
From: Rockville, MD
Originally posted by theZman
After reading this post I went home yesterday and checked my v.3 plenum. Sure enough, it's cracked around the front center bolt. The largest crack runs from the front of the center bolt towards the strut bar. Not sure how much longer the plenum will last so I guess I'll swap it out for the stock this weekend. I hope it doesn't fail before then.
TIP: For those checking your plenums -- make sure to check it over with the engine running. The cracks on my plenum were invisible with engine off, but became large and visible as soon as I started the car.
After reading this post I went home yesterday and checked my v.3 plenum. Sure enough, it's cracked around the front center bolt. The largest crack runs from the front of the center bolt towards the strut bar. Not sure how much longer the plenum will last so I guess I'll swap it out for the stock this weekend. I hope it doesn't fail before then.
TIP: For those checking your plenums -- make sure to check it over with the engine running. The cracks on my plenum were invisible with engine off, but became large and visible as soon as I started the car.
Scott
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 276
Likes: 0
From: Little Rock, Arkansas
Originally posted by tonylittell
man sorry to hear about your misfortune but getting stranded was your fault..ive been frustrated with kinetix as far as the cracks go also ...but i removed the plenum when it cracked.....
i think your asking a little much by asking them to pay the tow bill....a full refund i can understand and im sure they will give you back what ever you paid....but tow bill? sorry to say its your fault
not trying to cause bad blood between us...just giving my opinion
man sorry to hear about your misfortune but getting stranded was your fault..ive been frustrated with kinetix as far as the cracks go also ...but i removed the plenum when it cracked.....
i think your asking a little much by asking them to pay the tow bill....a full refund i can understand and im sure they will give you back what ever you paid....but tow bill? sorry to say its your fault
not trying to cause bad blood between us...just giving my opinion
Certain kinetix plenums are faulty and they are 100% responsible for any damages caused by their equipment. Should have done more intense testing before releasing IMO.