jelledge

So last Friday I went in for my tire feathering arbitration hearing. I will put down some of the interesting things that the Nissan rep (Adam Clemens said).

Basically I presented a bullet proof case that there is a significant problem with tire wear on this car and it is very widespread. When it came time for the Nissan rep to present his side he did not even argue.

Nissan rep had these things to say:
1. Nissan admits there is a problem with "some" of the 350Z's for tire wear.

2. He said that Nissan is still looking into the cause of the problem and that the current TSB's are simply suggestions for things to try and fix the problem. He said that at some point in the future (no word when) that Nissan should come out with an update on the problem.

3. This guy was convinced that the problem with the 350Z was toe setting being done incorrectly by the dealers. In my case I have had two alignments by the dealer and the third by Nissan engineers from Japan. According to Adam none of these were done correctly and my car is still out of spec for toe.
I asked why would the Nissan engineers would set the alignment on the car wrong.....no reponse.

4. My dealer and others have told 350Z owners that side to side tire rotation is required maintenance even though the owners manual does not say so. Adam said this was not true and no tire rotation is required or needed.

5. I asked that since Adam thinks the toe setting is the problem with the 350Z's then Nissan dealers across the country must not be capable of performing alignments correctly and following the TSB instructions. He said that is possible

6. I asked if there was any report or statment from the Nissan engineering investigation (which included my car). Adam said no and no one from the that office would call him back. Great.

7. I asked, if the toe settings are the problem with the Z then why doesn't the TSB fix it for all the cars that are aligned at places other then dealerships. Adam stated that the TSB specs are merely a guideline for alignment settings and each car may require more toe-in -- another words he said you may have to exceed the spec limits to stop tire feathering. WTF? AND that it may take a couple of alignments vs. tire wear to get it right. I was just sitting there in disbelief. Basically he just said that the TSB and alignment specs are worthless and you have to experiment. WOW

In the end I don't know if this guy is telling the truth or spewing a bunch of $hit. He basically admitted that Nissan knows there is a problem, but does not have a final resolution to fix it. Oh and no dealership in the country is able to set toe properly, but even if they were the current toe specs in the current TSB might not be correct anyway. Christ!

In the end I still demanded buy back of the car since it was clear to me (and the arbitrator) that Nissan doesn't have a freakin clue as a company what is going on. I left the meeting thinking that Nissan Engineering built a pretty darn good sports car, but the Nissan corporate management figured out a way to totally screw it up.

I should get final decision from arbitration in 2 weeks or less.

woogemooge

wow...keep us updated. if it works, could you please show me how i would be able to duplicate your result? i too have tire feathering, got two new front tires, they started feathering again, and my dealer won't do anything anymore, saying the two front tires they gave me was all they could do.

jelledge

I will just start selling the "Tire feathering Arbitration Presentation" package that you can present at the hearing. It was pretty bulletproof.


QUOTE]Originally posted by woogemooge
wow...keep us updated. if it works, could you please show me how i would be able to duplicate your result? i too have tire feathering, got two new front tires, they started feathering again, and my dealer won't do anything anymore, saying the two front tires they gave me was all they could do. [/QUOTE]

noel48

You're selling the package?I thought we were family here.

woogemooge

heck, i'll buy it.

jelledge

Hey I figure if Nissan can sell defective cars, make money, and claim no responsibility....I can sell an arbitration package which would get rid of the defective car, make money, and I claim no responsibility.

I can just see it now on ebay....

ironmon75

thanks for the arbitration info. my car gets inspected from nissan lemon law people next week, then going to trial.

good luck and keep us posted on your trial.

rnfieldsmith

When you brought in you car to have the tires examined, what was your mileage? From what you have said it seems momentum on your side. I just recently took mine in at 15,000 miles; the wear was very clear on the front tires. I filled a complaint against Nissan and the following day had my local dealership (W.O Bankston in Dallas) which had the worst service shop and the laziest technician’s .During the process, the only poor decision I made was bringing the car in at high mileage. I started noticing the noise around 10,000 but this being my first sports car I had no idea how it would ride and its road noise. So my question to you is there any other routes that I can get Nissan to at least work out a deal, or have I killed it by my high mileage?
Thanks,
Robert Fieldsmith

jelledge

Well I had my first set of tires replaced at 6500 miles and then had the 2nd set feather again at 5000 miles and had this documented. My arbitration hearing did not take place until I had 18k miles on the car, but only about 10k on the 2nd set of tires.

Waiting longer is definetly worse, but not he end of the world. You will still need to pursue the normal courses of fixing the problem before having enough evidence to be successful at arbitration. Paitence is key.

spinninbackfist

I put a package together for Tire Feathering and window motor replacements. Just sent it off on Friday will see what happens with mine. I think Nissan is starting to see alot from the BBB lately for this problem. I feel like we where a rolling test bed for this car and they failed.

woogemooge

spinninbackfist, what problems did you have with window motors? my windows rattle a lot and i must be having the same problems as you are!

if you don't mind my asking, could you please tell me what your problems and how often you had them? i'm trying to figure out if i have a case too...

dthoman

At least your Nissan Arbitration Specialist owned up to admitting that there is a problem.

I had my BBB hearing on September 15, 2003. My arbitration specialist didn't have a clue. He was telling the arbitrator that it was driving conditions and how the car was driven. Basically, stating that I WAS AT FAULT. THAT IT WAS MY DRIVING.

Well I am laughing all the way to the Mercedes Benz new car lot. NNA was ordered to buy back my car. You can do a search and find my thread explaining how mine happened.

I know that the arbitration specialist read this forum. Because I had to follow up with my arbitration specialist several times, because it was taking a long time for DMV to remove my name off of the title. The last time we spoke he mentioned that he would appreciate that if I spoke of my case on the internet not to use his name, to use "arbitration specialist" instead. When I told my story I had used his name in some my posts. So beware not to share too many "strategties" between ourselves. NNA is "listening" to us.

Good luck, it seems you may be looking for a new car soon.

woogemooge

hahaha true....

kbsig106

Well if they're listening...


"Nissan get your check book ready becuase you conducted the "final" repair and it's still not right."

Tires are starting to get choppy at 2K - they put these on 11/28/03.

rnfieldsmith

Could you please tell me the normal course to gaining a arbitration, and should I have an independent shop measure and/or correct the toe and what and how much documentation do I need.
Thanks, Robert Fieldsmith

jelledge

This will get you started:

Okay first thing is make sure you understand the difference between arbitration and lemon law filing.

Start by going the BBB website and click on the autoline link. This has a lot of information about arbitration rules and requirements. They also have links for lemon laws for your state which vary widely.

You can start an arbitration case for anything at any time when the car is under certain mileage and age restrictions. You are ok.
You DO NOT need a lawyer as the setting is fairly informal and has simple rules. However you may have a lawyer if you wish and bring witnesses also. If you plan to do arbitration yourself like I did, you need to be well organized and thought out for what to say and how to present your case.

For myself, I spent about 3 weeks collecting various print articles about the 350Z tire problems, taking digital pics of my tire problems and "borrowing" pictures of other people's tire problems posted on the web. I then spent some time getting well educated about suspension and alignment and researching the issue. Bascially I did what a lawyer would do for you. You will also need all of your repair work orders from the dealership(s), maintenance records, and write down the gist of conversations that took place between Nissan Consumer Affairs and yourself as well as dealership.

Now lemon law is much more demanding and strict about how many times a repair attempt has to be made, etc. Generally you want a lawyer for lemon law. The same type of information and materials are presented as in arbitration, but since it is in a court room you want a lawyer with lemon law experience to know how and what to present for a good case. Keep in mind also that in some states the lemon laws are very powerful for the consumer and help alot, and in other like mine they suck.

Also, if you cannot find a lemon law lawyer call the state attorney general's office and they can give you a referral.


Now, in order to really get yor ducks in a row for arbitration or lemon law you will need to give Nissan several attempts to fix the car and show that they either deny there is a problem and will not do anything or that they tried to fix the problem and it came back. Everything must be documented and take lots of pictures of your tires for evidence in case Nissan changes them out.

Just approach this like a court room case. Here are some steps to follow:

1. Explain what the problem(s) are with the car and show pictures whenever possible. There are some good tire feathering pics out there and I can send you mine if need it as well.
Show TSB's related to the problem(s) to show that Nissan is aware of the issues but has no good fix.

2. Explain how these problems affect the resale value of the car, safety (tire related traction), and general enjoyment of the car. I also stated that I wasn't able to make any modifications to say the suspension because I knew Nissan would say it caused the problems.

3. Show the service records for attempts that Nissan made to get the problem fixed and results. Present conversations you had with Local dealerships and anyone else involved with Nissan. I also showed all the bad information the dealerships were telling me and how Nissan was simply dodging responsbility.

Okay now that is the bread and butter of the case, but to be over the top you need more. Here is what I did:

4. I showed that many many other Z's have this problem. I presented a portion of the tire feathering thread (1200+ printed pages long), articles from auto week and motorweek saying they had the same issue. So this helps to show that your car is not some fluke and this is a wide spread problem. NOTE: do to the large number of "bad" posts on internet forums that contain wrong is irrelevant information, do not use this as evidence to show explanations for problems. ONLY use this to show that others are having problems over and over again.

5. I presented several articles from tire companies talking about abnormal tire wear and what can cause it. I did not specifically try to explain the cause, but rather present some plausible explanations that the problem is related to suspension and alignment and not something like driving style or the tires, etc.

6. I also brought with me several articles relating to what the various alignment settings mean like toe, caster, camber and the effects this has on tires. The tire company and sellers websites are good for this.

Well that's about it. It took me about 1 hour to present all this info. It was funny as hell when it was the Nissan rep's turn to present he just let out this sigh of disgust and had no real response. I think I just buried him in data that he could not deny.

rnfieldsmith

Thanks for all your help

ironmon75

which articles from autoweek and newsweek did you use?
what month? any help appreciated to collect info. i'm in the midst of building my case against nissan. thanks.

overZealous

These three would be very helpful:

2003 Nissan 350Z: Third-quarter update

Wearing Thin: Tire rumbling has Nissan 350Z owners grumbling

2003 Nissan 350Z: Second-quarter update

D@ActiveTuning

iTrader: (17)

How about posting up your presentation, and people that need it can just use the same information

This is obvioulsy a huge help though for those that plan to use it!