Thats like saying Celsius doesn't measure temperature, Ferenheight does.

 

If you want to magazine race, GMHTP got a 2001 SS into the 12's, I beleive it was 12.89 if I'm not mistaken, and it was BONE stock. Magazines don't show anything. I also find it fishy that you walked a car that generally puts out equal or more RWHP, significantly more torque, weighs almost identical to you, and generally the same, if not better 1/4 mile times/trap speeds. But anything can happen on the street. It's possible he didn't downshift correctly.

 

Thats different. Ferenheight and celcius are both forms of temperature. It would be like comparing 1 hp to 776 Joules, they both measure the same thing, power. HP and tourge are not the same thing. You can say 32F is the same thing to 0c, you can't do that with tq.

 

You're right, but my point was that they are related measurements when factoring acceleration. Torque is the tendency of a force to rotate an object about some axis, while HP is the time rate of doing work. HP and torque can't be equated unless rev/time are accounted for (I'm sure you know the equation).

He said HP doesn't move cars, torque does...thats incorrect. Torque doesn't move anything until revolutions are factored into the equation at which point HP is generated.

For his point to be valid he should've said that an engine with more torque, generally makes more HP at lower RPMS thus accelerating the vehicle from a stop faster(and making sweet burnouts).

Yes the LT1 makes gobs more low rpm torque then the VQ35 and should take it off the line. But from a roll the Z's gearing and aerodynamics should give it an advantage when the low rpm power isn't important. Not bad for a naturally aspirated V6. This is all theoretical of course and it all comes down to the drivers.

None of this matters cause the LT1 is old and the LS1 has the power to walk a Z easily. Nissan needs to make a faster Z to run with the LS1/LS6 and I think they can do it.

 

I dont know about ur friend, but 12.6 with a SC on a LS1 is very bad. SC'd(Procharger, Vortech, powerdyne) LS1's are running between 10.7-11.9 at 118-126.

To answer ur question about what brought me to the Z board is because Í visit around 21 different car forums and i like cars in general. I like to know more about every brand and the best place to learn about a car is to hear what owners have to say about them.

 

I think he meant the S/C on the LT1, at least I hope so. I know of lt1's that run better than that, with no ther mods except the S/C.

 

To have a V6 keep getting compared to a much stronger V8. I sold my FireHiawk for my 350Z and I am glad I did. Great Torque and launch then it's just a bear to drive, heavy, and expensive gas and insurance wise.

Sure does seem to be allot of non 350Z LS1 members here on this board though. Anyone else notice that?

I think they are waiting and watching our mod list in fear

Twin Turbo soon folks! Then we can talk trash. Till then the LS1 will beat the 350Z. But who drives the 1/4 mile everyday?

My Z is a comfortable head turning daily driver and 154mph speed demon at night (Motor Trend verified top speed.)

In all fairness others should be comparing their Camaro and Mustang **V6's** to our V6's but that isn't happening is it now??

 

Yeah....well you just wait till I get a....twin turbo....then I can talk smack again....? Whatever, there are so many things to argue about on this subject, like what I hear all the time"Mustangs have V-8's, but there slowe than our V-8's"..."Thats because you have more CI than we do. At least our Cobra will whoop your a**"..."Yeah well just wait till I get a supercharger, then you'll know whats up"...Thats not fair, it doesn't come with the car stock"..."Neither does the super.....ugh I'm getting sick. Here is what I think, I think it is very impressive to get those kind of HP, and performance, stock, from a V-6, especially an N/A one. Good job Nissan.

 

Not true.
Farenheit and Celcius are ways of measuring a temperature change, Horsepower is a result of work (torque) over time (RPM) horsepower is not generated, it's a mathematical calculation, 1 hp = 550 ft lb/second.
the turning force that pushes your car forward is torque, thats the only force that moves you car, torque at X RPM is just that, the force at a specific RPM.
does adding HP without adding torque ( IE revving higher) cause you to accelerate faster? no. It can let you reach a higher top speed if your car has hit a rev limiter or run out of gear, but that still isnt the work of HP, it's simply letting the engine spin higher to turn the wheels at a higher RPM, still torque.
if HP moves you car, why can't you DIRECTLY measure HP? because it doesn't do any moving, like i said it's just a calculation, i believe you know it.

I dont have a LS1 Fbody, but i assure you i'm not watching your modlists in fear, i'm not afraid of being beaten, not that it matters since i dont have the motor fully bought yet anyway.
Also comparing bone stock performance doesn't tell the whole story, the LS1 has greater power potential in both maximum and pump gas comparisons, it doesnt mean that your engine is designed worlds better stock because you're within a second of it at the strip, it means GM didnt decide to push the motor, they could have the LS6 and be nearly 2 seconds quicker, would that be far enough ahead and STILL have the extra power potential?

 

Actually FYRHWK1, you are pretty much wrong on this. The reason HP is the most useful measurement (HP curve not just peak), is because it takes gearing into account, whereas torque does not.

When most manufacturers designs a car with a high revving, but low torque engine, they gear it so it will still reach just over 60 in second gear. That is why an S2000, even with its 153 lb-ft of torque can keep up with the Z, with 276 lb-ft. The power/weight ratios are very similar. Therefore, adding HP by raising RPM will make you accelerate faster, and that is the way most car companies design (with 0-60 mph, 0-100 kph gearing).

The HP/Torque curve is definitely important, because a peaky engine will not be able to make good power at low RPMs, but as long as the torque curve is pretty flat, then HP definitely wins over torque.

The issue gets confusing when cars use weird gearing, like an NSX that can go about 50 in first gear, but since most cars are geared to get to 62 at the end of the second gear, it is usually best to compare HP to HP.

One thing that makes people think torque is the important factor, is that larger engines with greater torque usually have a flatter torque curve, and are therefore more powerful at low RPM's (like when you are launching the car). It doesn't mean that more torque is better, just that flatter torque is better. In the end, more HP is always better (and if you get more torque too, then excellent).

-D'oh!

 

HP takes gearing into effect? how can it possibly do that? all HP is is a representation of torque over a certain RPM, all gearing does is multiply engine torque by using leverage, which furthers my point, torque is the only force in which pushes your car.
yes, a proper band of torque is needed, a car with a flat torque curve will give the best mix of performance if your motor is constantly changing across the range, if it spends alot of time at one RPM building the motor to make as much torque there is key to being fast.
perhaps i misunderstood, but if i didnt HP takes no gearing into account, the gearing really has the most to do with the cars redline and its nature. a sportscar will have the car run short gears in order to gain the most mechanical advantage, IE produce more RWTQ, that comes at a cost of making you rev higher because a shorter gear ratio needs more RPM input to reach a given speed compared to a taller one, 3:1 compared to 2:1 for example, respectivly. that reduces gas mileage and also makes the engine typically wear out faster, noise can also be a deterrant.
i didnt mean adding HP couldn't make you go fast, i said increasing HP without increasing torque (either by making your engine produce more or by gearing, both result in more RWTQ) will not make you accelerate faster.

 

I guess LS1s have weird gearing also, My 02 Z28 tops first at 49 mph and second at 72 mph

 

You can accelerate faster by gaining peak hp and not gaining peak torque numbers. Its because torque at higher RPMS equal more horsepower, you don't need a higher max torque number to accelerate faster, you can shift that same number to a higher rpm and make more horsepower.

Consider Infiniti's naturally aspirated 3.5 liter V8 used in Indy racing. It makes 320 ft-lbs of max torque (less than an LT1 and its 4.5 liter cousin in the Q45). However it makes that torque at 10,400 rpm, that gives it 650 hp at 10,700rpm and insane acceleration. That is an extreme example of making the most out of the horsepower/torque formula.

 

The 162-165 MPH top speed is not governed, it is drag limited. The only time a governer comes into play is if the Camaro was not equiped with Z rated tires from the factory. Then it is goverened at 155.

 

Just so you know.

162mph IS a electronic limiter.

115mph IS the limiter for non-Z rated tired cars.

 

Correct, but if you get the HPP3 (HyperTech) you can remove all of these limiters. I had the HPP3 on my FireHawk and was able to change my gear ratio to 3.73's after my gear swap and I also raised my rev limiter and set the top speed limiter to 255mph

I wish they had something like this for my Z!

I miss my Hawk, I don't miss the problems.

I launched too hard at Sac Raceway one too many times (Torque Converter, 3.73's, Nitto DR's and Hoosier's, and Nitrous down the track a ways. Left axle busted and metal shavings went into my new gears

I expect my Nissan engine, tranny to outlive the average domestic engine tranny. Micro finished rods pistons etc, carbonfiber coated drive shaft. Engine of the year 9 years and running GO NISSAN!

Both cars are good, I like both, I prefer the Z.

I even like the SVT Cobra's, I'm not a hater drive whatever you want to drive

I just think it's odd when people who don't even own a car that the forum is named after start getting in debates about said car in question that's all. Unless they are waiting for theirs of course. The wait must be torture, I hate waiting!

World Peas for all!

 

I have *never* heard that before. I differ to your greater knowledge.

 

Its true my friend, its is very easily removable with a ton of products out there that exist, like predator that i have

 

I also know this to be true. Don't worry though, you learn something kneweveryday, even if it is on a 350Z forum

 

When I say HP takes gearing into account, it is because I am trying to simplify what HP and Torque mean.

Having torque (at the engine) is basically meaningless unleass you also know the speed at which it makes that torque.

Look at diesel engines for instance, they make insane amounts of torque for their size, but also typically make much lower HP than a gasoline engine. Because they usually don't rev much past 5000, their gearing is by necessity much taller and they are therefore slower than a similar gasoline engine.

On the other end of the spectrum are typical formula type race car engines. They generate enormous power by revving extremely high. They also generate comparatively little torque, but have really short gearing to make up for it.

Here's another example. Make two horses pull on a wheel (like a merry-go-round). Each horse can pull about 1000 lbs, so if they are on a 20' diameter wheel than they are generating about 2000 ft-lbs of torque. The wheel will spin at whatever speed it takes the horse to walk around the 63' path around the wheel. Now put them on a 10' diameter wheel, and they are only making 1000 ft-lbs. On the other hand, they only have to walk half as far so the wheel is turning faster (by 2x). In either case, you have a 2 HP engine, even though one makes more torque than the other. If you tried to lift something with the wheel, you could lift an object twice as heavy with the larger diameter wheel, but it would only rise half as fast as something lifted by the smaller wheel because of the speed of rotation. If you wanted to lift a lighter weight with the high torque "engine", you could overdrive it to make it lift faster, and conversely, you could add a reducer to the low torque "engine" to lift the heavier weight. No matter which route you go though, (the high-torque engine with the overdrive, or the low torque motor with the reducer), the low and high torque motors will lift the same objects at the same rate. The only way to increase the lifting speed of the objects is too add MORE HORSES or reduce the WEIGHT of the object! This is why POWER/WEIGHT ratio is very important (of course with the car there are other factors, like traction, that can make a huge difference).

Finally, gas mileage is primarily governed by a few factors: HP, drag, gearing, and weight. Also, companies will usually do specific things to increase the EPA estimates, since they know exactly what the tests are. Vettes are able to get decent highway gas mileage because they have a very tall highest gear to keep the revs down during highway driving. The S2000, even with its small engine, does not get mileage much better than the Z because at 80 MPH the S is running at 4000+ RPM (don't remember exactly what the number is), while the Z is running at 3000. Both cars, though, are running at just less than 50% of their max RPM.

Anyhow, the reason behind all this jibba-jabba is just to drive home the point that HP is a much better indication of performance than torque (as long as you aren't decieved by a "peaky" engine).

-D'oh!