Kayaalp

Quote:

There is nothing wrong with running a harness without a cage as long as the harness is installed properly. Not having a rollbar/rollcage can make it harder to install a harness properly, but I don't see how this is asking for a broken neck...

Gary,
Actually, those 2" 4-point harnesses that are designed to be used without a cage are very, very risky. Without the 5th belt (the "anti-sub strap") you'll be in big trouble in the event of a frontal impact. Since most of your body weight is up top, your upper body gets pushed up and forward in an accident. With a stock 3-point seatbelt, the belt tightens across your lap as your chest moves forward. This keeps your hips planted in the seat. With a 4-point harness, this doesn't happen. As your upperbody goes up and out, it pulls the lap belt up off your hips. Then you slide under the lap belt (that's why they call it submarining). This will cause major intraabdominal trauma. You can expect major damage and hemorrhaging from your liver, spleen, and intestines. I've seen these kinds of injuries when I was a med student at a major trauma center. No fun.

Further, if you don't have a proper harness bar, the shoulder straps generally will be mounted too low (so they run at a steep angle behind your shoulders). In the event of a big frontal impact, they'll push sharply down on your shoulders. This can lead to spinal compression injuries...including paralysis.

Finally, if you roll you're f-cked. With a 3-point seatbelt you have a chance of surviving a rollover. As the roof comes down, you get pushed to the center of the car. You may be OK. But if you are strapped down at both shoulders, you can't get pushed to the side. As the roof comes down, you're strapped bolt-upright in the seat, so your neck with snap for sure. Your only hope would be for the seatback to collapse. I wouldn't take that chance!

Just a few things to think about. Generally, you're safer with a standard seatbelt than a 4-point belt w/o roll protection. If you decide you need more protection than that, you should wait until you have enough dough to do it properly: roll bar, 3" 5-point harness, fixed seat, and seatback brace. Safety equipment is not the place to cut corners!!!

Emre

GaryK

Emre,
I agree with what you're saying for the most part, my point is that it must be properly mounted, including an anti-sub belt. I see a lot of them mounted wrong, in both street cars and in race cars. Sorry, I always forget about those four point setups, I'm used to thinking about w2w racing (3" 5 point minimum). That's a good point about what could happen in a rollover too....just one of the reasons I don't like being on the track without at least a rollbar. There are other situations where I think a harness would be to your advantage, even without a roll bar, such as a side impact. The rollover possibility is worth considering though.

Gary

GaryK

Your brake fluid level will go down as the pads and rotors wear, and of course if you have a leak. You'll notice the level going down as the brakes wear because this wear means the pistons have to push out of the calipers further which requires more fluid volume out of the reservoir. Unless you see that the level is extremely low, you don't need to add fluid. In fact, if you keep the level at the top, then the next time you put new pads on you might push fluid out the top of the reservoir.

Negcamber posted a good summary of types of fade, but green fade is somewhat rare these days due to the materials used in pads. You'll most likely encounter hydraulic fade or pad fade, depending on what you're running for fluid and pads. In either case, you should take it easy on the brakes to let them cool some.

westpak

iTrader: (19)

Be carefull with using your stock pads, take a spare set with you in case, so you can drive home.

I had my stock rear pads with 5000 street miles on them at my first event and after a day and a half they were down to metal.

It all depends on the curent miles on your pads, the type of track and your driving and how adventurous you get. I was at Sebring with 17 turns with about 5 being from high speed.

Nealoc187

Kalyaap beat me to it. I was talking about the rollover situation.

As far as HPDEs, like was already said they aren't a bunch of guys tooling around on a sunday drive around a road course. You are moving, fast. I guarantee the first time you are out there you will be quite frightened and probably won't go much over 60% in your first session. Being on a race track is an intimidating experience your first time out, but it is an adrenaline rush like you wouldn't believe. That's what brings me back. There's nothing like it. They limit passing to the straightaways to give the most safety possible. 99% of the cars out there are street cars, with no cage, and no safety equipment besides airbags and seatbelts and a helmet. Not to mention there are often green drivers out there (usually separated in groups according to experience). Race car drivers are don't become race car drivers overnight, they learn from years of experience.

Not to scare you, but to show you how serious HPDEs can be, here are a few pics from HPDEs I've been to:

slay2k

Thanks Gary for the clarification on the brakes..

Westpak, it's a one-day event.. so I don't think I'll burn thru them so badly that I won't be able to ride home. And the Bobcats are yet to be ordered.. so they may not arrive on time for an extra set.

Nealoc - thanks, I look forward to it

brackethead

This is one of the best threads I've read here. I wish I would have brought a spare set of pads to BeaveRun last weekend -- I wore the rears out (2nd track event on original pads). Thanks for all the great info!

Kayaalp

Yeah, I learned my lesson the hard way. I did a one-day event at a track that's known to be hard on brakes. I put fresh street pads on my E30 318is. I wore the fronts down so far that the calipers overheated and seized! I had to replace the pads, rotors, and calipers. Cost me a small fortune compared to the price of a set of race compound pads. With Hawk Blues I can do several events at that track with the same set of pads: it's actually cheaper than replacing stock pads each time...and I know I can always get home!

Now I take a set of race pads, a spare set of front rotors, some DOT-4 brake fluid, a brake bleeder, and a bunch of tools to each event (even the single-day ones).

Emre

2003z

iTrader: (7)

Oh yeah, and buy a truck and trailer, cause there aint no way you are fitting 4 race tires and a jack in the car! Seriously, I drive on my R-compunds to and from the auto-x and for the long distance, have to rely on someone else to carry my stuff... (jtree007)

negcamber

You can't put one in the spare well (don't need the spare if you have 4 "spares" with you), one behind the seats in the hatch area, two in the passenger seat and the jack in the passenger floorboard?

2003z

iTrader: (7)

I had 2 unmounted 225/40-18s in the front seat, and couldnt shift into 5th or 6th gear. 4th was tough.

Kayaalp

Yeah, you're right about that. You'd have to change wheels at home than drive on the r-compounds to the track.

Emre

J Ritt

iTrader: (4)

Slay2K,
I'm another Northern NJ person. I used to do HPDE in my Type R. Currently, I'm just autoXing my Z. Here's some input on a number of topics...
1. Another organization to consider running with besides PDA is NASA. www.nasanortheast.org. I know a bunch of the people who run this. They do a number of events each year, and they're generally safe and fun. They do HPDE, and autoX at the Meadowlands. I also do autoX at the meadowlands with the M club... www.themclub.net. THey have quite a few, and use large courses with high speeds. The NNJ PCA region does autoX at the meadowlands as well. Just go to the Porsche club website, and look up NNJ region. For all NJ autoX action, go to www.autoX4u.com. They have a master schedule with all events in the area.
2. Were you at Pocono last Friday. I think PDA was running there. I was instructing for the Mercedes AMG challenge on the South course. I got to beat the **** out of $100k cars on the track while getting paid...oh lord...what a good time. Also a bit scary with some of my students though!
3. As others have said, HPDE's can and are dangerous. I don't know that I've ever been to one that hasn't sent at least one car home damaged in some way. If I were you, I would make sure your insurance covers you for the event you are running. Otherwise, you may fiind yourself telling a lot of lies, jumping through hoops, and generally worrying a whole lot about your $30k car that is in pieces.
4. Karting is the cheapest head to head racing you can do. I was just up at www.ovrp.com 2 weekends ago. It looks like it is a real blast. I'm probably going to take a school up there this summer, and I'm also considering getting into it and may be looking for a partner to go 1/2's with me on a kart. You can actually store the kart at their facilities and have them wrench on it, etc.
Let me know if you have any other Q's.

slay2k

Hi J Ritt,

I just joined the M Club, and no it wasn't me last Friday... I'm going for the 1st time next Thursday to the Poconos Racepark with PDA..

With regards to insurance, my car is on a business policy and there's no way it'll be insured for such an event.

Thanks for the input... send me a PM if you wanna talk more or meet up.

I'm in the middle of a huge dilemma with regards to wheels. I've got a set of 19" GT-7's laying downstairs, brand new.. and I'm trying to decide what I'm going to run for these track events.. and if I'll have to swap wheels every time I go to an autoX or HPDE or Drag Strip...

-slay

Kayaalp

Just keep in mind that your tires will be ruined after a handful of events. 19" rubber is a LOT more expensive than 17" or even 18" and the whole package will weigh a lot more, too. I've been doing driving schools for a few years with BMW and Porsche clubs. I personally have never seen even ONE car running a 19" wheel and tire package. Believe it or not, even 18 inchers are pretty rare (even on Porsches and E46's).

Emre

J Ritt

iTrader: (4)

Slay2k,
I agree about the wheels...if there's one thing I've learned...you can never have too many wheels! I just got a set of semi-bling wheels for the street that I'll be posting more about next week. But for autoX/track driving, just stick with 17's. Someone posted info on a set of 17x9 5 spoke enkei's a while back, that weighed somewhere in the neighborhood of 16-17lbs. They are a simple design, and look pretty good (better than the stock 17's IMO). They are cheap at around $200/wheel I believe. I would get something like that. If you are going to stick with street tires (which I, as some others recommend until you get more experience), then I'd go with Falken azenis. I'd get a pair of their 245/45/17 and mount them on those Enkei's. The tires are cheap ($450 for the whole set)! If you want to go even cheaper, throw those bad boys on your stock 17's, and drive the **** out of them. If I decide not to get full R compound, that's what I"m going to do. At only $450 for those Falkens, you'll be able to keep your bling wheels for the street, and then have your pure business wheels. Don't worry about constantly swapping wheels. After you do it for the 4000th time, you become quite quick at it. The great thing about keeping the Azenis on the stock wheels is, you can still run them on the street with no problems. If you're feeling lazy and don't want to swap back to the bling...just leave them on for another week...no biggie. Check my other thread in the wheel/tire section titled "interesting specs on Kumho ecsta and Toyo t1s" for more details. They are a great street tire that have a ton of grip, wear well, and still break away in a nice manner for learning the limits. Let me know if you want to talk privately. J_Ritt44@yahoo.com. I'm probably going out to the June 8th M club autoX, or the NJ Z car club show at Warnock Nissan in Morristown that same day...haven't decided which yet. Maybe we can get together for one of those events. If we do autoX, I'd be more than happy to give you some pointers if you like, etc.

slay2k

Hey thanks for the input.

My stocks are actually 18", and I plan on selling them if I keep the GT-7's..

With regards to your location and autocrossing, yeah I'd love to meet up so someone with more experience can give me some input.

I've also ordered some Carbotech Bobcats for the fronts, for daily driving... since the stock pads suck ***, give way too much dust, and have faded a bit since my last dragday over at Island Dragway in Great Meadows. My best time, btw, was 14.0 pure stock ;( Couldn't break 13's yet... even though I think it's very possible with a good launch.

Anyway... when you go to PDA events, do you change your tires AND your pads as well ? Cause I fear that's what I'll have to do everytime >_<

Later,

-slay

Kayaalp

For auto-x events you'll be better off with street pads. The brakes never heat up enough for race compounds to do their job. So just swapping wheels/tires will be fine.

For HPDE's, you'll want to swap pads for sure. Under track conditions, street pads will overheat and disappear in no time. Your rotors will also get worn and heated in an irregular way. Rotors are expensive on the Z. Race compound pads will keep together longer and wear evenly, so the rotors will hold up better. Also, you'll be absolutely amazed at their stopping power when hot!

Emre

negcamber

That depends on the pad. The Bobcats that he bought work from ambiant to 900F. I've used Carbotechs for close to 5 years now...I love 'em. Even the Panthers that I have now, which have a operating range starting at 150F, have a much more pronounced grab and better stopping power even when cold. Of course, it does not take long to get to 150F if the ambiant temp is 80-90F.

Kayaalp

Hi Negcamber,

I didn't know that about the Bobcats. I'm not real familiar with the Carbotech line (I've been using Hawk pads). I thought the Bobcats were a race compound similar to the Hawk Blues. Guess I was wrong!

I need to learn more about Carbotech. Hawks are getting too expensive. Also, I'm tired of how corrosive the dust from the Blues is. It eats away at everything!

Emre