slay2k

Alright,

I'm on a path to learning all about the oval track, autocrossing, and so forth. I'm joining the SCCA and plan on attending many HPDE's and track events..

I've got a Performance Model Z, stock, and have a few things in mind to prepare this car for such a life.

1. StopTech's in front in 13".
2. Rays 18" all around, or maybe TE-37, or maybe just cheaper light wheels, such as Privat Fahren's... I plan on using the stock 18" wheels wrapped in Blizzak LM-22's for winter driving.

What are your thoughts on this ?

Also I plan on keeping the stock rubber for now, and upgrading when I waste it. Also, I'm not even sure if I should bother with the wheels at the moment since everything is so costly.

Most important question I have is.. do I have *any* other alternatives except to put down ~$2,000 or close to it on a StopTech kit ? That much dough, for 2 front brakes and rotors, is a helluva lotta cash. So for my first few HPDE courses, can I just put some really good pads on the stock brakes and get away without frying anything ?

Anyway, all thoughts are welcome.

Caswell

Since all thoughts are welcome, I'll give mine...

If you're going to get serious about road racing, don't do it in a street car. The upfront costs of buying a purpose-built race car for use in SCCA club racing may be very high, but some of them can be run thereafter for very little money. I thought about seriously racing my f-body after I bought it but a few conversations around the T2 pits at the Runoffs had me shocked. Some of those guys are spending over a grand a weekend in consumables such as pads, rotors, and fluids. All things that you would go through just tracking the car.

If club racing is too expensive (it is for me at this point in my young life) there's always karting. Very few sensations in my life compare to going sideways through a tight 90 degree turn at 70+ mph or the awesome feeling of my first true road course pass (set up in earlier turns then outbrake going into a hairpin).

Besides, running solo is fun and all but racing in traffic is where it's at.

Nealoc187

For me its the thrill of modifying a car from its original form to be faster and better. Some people would rather have a race car, while I'd rather race my street car.


Anyhow about your mods, only get the 18" wheels if you have the brakes to justify them. I assume StopTech's kit requires 18" wheels, but if not, I'd go with 17s (for track wheels). They will be lighter and they have less diameter thus the rotating mass is closer to the center, a twofold advantage.

The 350Z brakes are pretty good stock (at least compared to my car). Pads are the most important at the track. You need good pads. Of course you will stop better with a big brake kit, but you will stop pretty well without it too. I'd do some HPDEs before you get the big brake kit and THEN judge whether it's worth the extra $2000 to you. You certainly don't have to have one your first time out on the track.

You didn't mention tires nor suspension. What are your plans for those?

Clyde

1. Attend a driving school such as BMW or AUDI
2. Install a harness system
3. Replace brake fluid with a high temp. such as Super Blue
4. Get a good street/track pad
5. Install adjustable swaybars front and rear.

After doing these steps you'll have less than $1500 invested and if you like it you can continue with other mods. These are the basics

Moroccan_Mole

iTrader: (5)

before spending money on big brakes, go out there with your stock brakes, with race pads (porterfields) and some type of high temp brake fluid (motul, ate, etc).

as far as wheels go ... i would go with a 17" wheel that will clear big brakes. 17" race rubber is MUCH easier to find, and a MUCH MUCH cheaper.

other mods would be suspenion (jic coilovers) and some kind of swaybars (cusco?), or you could go with something like the nismo s-tune kit.

the biggest thing is practice practice practice!

Nealoc187

A harness in a car with no cage is just asking for a broken neck...

other than that I agree with all you said.

negcamber

My first question would be: what is your goal? Are you interested in going out to have fun or are you looking to get serious about motorsport competition? If you are looking to seriously learn about motorsport competition, then I agree with Caswell that karting is the way to go (hey Cas we agree on something ). Karts can run wheel-to-wheel kart courses and road courses, or in SOLO II.

If karting is not your style, then what class of racing do you want to compete in? Once you know that, then you can decided what mods are legal in the class. Even if you just want to have fun, you may want to pick a class to conform to so that at least you can be competitive in the class without bumping yourself into a class that would require a lot more mod money invested for you to keep up.

If you purely just want to have fun and don't care about classes, then get some 17s, since there are a larger variety of r-compound tires available for them. As far as I know there has not been a lot of Z testing of wheel/tire for best fitment, heating and balance for racing yet. But, you might start with 17x8.5 fr and 17x9.5 rr. That would bump you out of a stock SCCA class however.

I wouldn't worry with the StopTechs. At a minimum, you will need high temp brake fluid (Motul 600, ATE SuperBlue, etc) for tracking. The high temp fluid is not really necessary for autox though.

Pads would also be good to reduce fade if you track the car, but may not be necessary for autox either. However, there are some downsides to race pads...those that are best for the track are not always best for the street or for autox. Some of the best for the track are also not kind to rotors and most higher performance pads dust badly. Check Porterfield, Carbotech, Hawk and Pagid for pads that can be a good mix of competition and street pad. Or get a set of hardcore track pads and swap them out at the event site before and after...many folks who specifically track their daily drivers will do that.

Regardless, the best way to go faster is with a driving school. Mods can increase your car's capability, but your ability may not allow you to take full advantage of them. Improving your ability is usually much cheaper than improving the car's capability, plus it is more rewarding.

There are many opinions about whether it is easier for autoxers to become road racers or visa versa. Personally, I think autoxers have an easier time moving to a road course. Autoxing is very good at teaching how to go slow in the slow parts and fast in the fast parts. You are constantly looking for the next change in direction and usually have very little time to react to that next maneuver. Compared to an autox course, a road course is very open giving you more time to plan your next maneuver. However, with an autox it is much less likely that you would end up in the grass or worse--a tire wall-- if you screw up while learning.

slay2k

Thanks for the input. To address some questions..

Karting is out of the question at the moment. I wish to do everything in the Z.

That being said, StopTech's require "at least 17".. so I don't really need 18s. However, I was going to get a set of lightweight & nice-looking rims in 18, so that I don't have to swap them every time I go to the track.. which I was hoping would be quite often.

In reality, I've got a set of 19" GT-7's coming next week.. which I'm considering selling altogether or keeping as daily wheels, depending on my track configuration. I suppose if I can get some good 17" wheels & tires for the track, without spending an arm and a leg, then I could keep the 19" GT-7's as well. In reality though, sounds like it'd be a pain in the *** to swap wheels every single time I track or drag my car.. especially if it's often.

So, the "compromise" 18" solution was and is an option. This way, I don't sacrifice much looks or performance.. and don't have to swap them for the track. The cost is a bit heavier weight and cost of rubber. This is exactly what droideka has done, btw.

On to the brakes... yes, they are very good stock! So good that they're within 3-5 feet stopping distance of the Brembo's on the track model. However, they heat up ALOT more than the Brembo's, since they're only about 11.6". So they climb to about 800 degrees on the track..

With that in mind, are you sure some high-temp brake fluid and pads will be enough for me to attend a few HPDE's and do some track runs without much problem ?

With regards to tires/suspension, I was considering some Eibach springs... nothing like swaybars has entered my mind since I'm not *IN* the scene yet.. and I'm too novice to understand why adjustable swaybars would be useful. Therefore, with regards to that and the rubber, I figured I'd wait till I got used to the track first. The brakes and wheels are more of a priority, it seems.

Negcamber - with regards to my goal, I would like to feel comfortable participating (hopefully frequently) in SCCA Club Races on the oval track, along with autocross events as well.

My *ideal* goal is to gain as much knowledge and experience as possible, without breaking the piggybank, all in my Z. I also don't want to have to swap too many things everytime I track..

That's all for now, thanks again.

D'oh

I've been to 3 AutoX and 2 Track days in my completely stock Z (no race pads, no special brake fluid, I didn't even bleed the brakes).

Here's what I've noticed:

My brakes work fine at the AutoX. You rarely get above 65 mph, and each run is less than 60 seconds. I've done at most two runs back to back, with the first being a warm up. Often, you only get one run at a time. Absolutely no reason to change brakes for the AutoX.

At the track (Laguna Seca) I noticed some slight fade during the second half of each session (about 20 minutes per session). The fade wasn't too bad, but it did lead to me braking a bit earlier than I could have done otherwise. However, it did not affect my times too badly (probably by about .25-.5 seconds per lap at most).

What I've noticed far more than the brakes has been understeer when cornering at the limit. As many have mentioned, the understeer seems strong enough that there doesn't seem to be a good way to get around it once it sets in. On the AutoX, it's somewhat frustrating, but on the track I guess it may not be too bad since it helps prevent you from spinning (although I did manage to spin out once, but luckily avoided the wall).

I probably put about 5000 miles of wear on the tires during the two track days, and needed to replace my rear brake pads afterwards (it was very easy to do myself, and was less than $60 for parts). I'm now at 15,000 miles and will need to replace my front pads and tires before going to another track day.

Since I'm primarily racing for fun and don't care about classes and such, I've decided that I would like to get both the S-Tune suspension and the 13" Stoptech kit, but neither anytime soon. I'm waiting for the S-Tune to hit the US, and then after I save for a while and go to a few more track days, I'd get the stoptechs, mainly for the sake of increased confidence (and they look pretty sweet, too).

To me, the S-Tune would make a more noticable change to the car, and would provide the most immediate benefit.

I think you could definitely go to at least one HPDE event with the car completely stock, but you may need new pads after the event, depending on the amount of track time and how hard you run.

-D'oh!

westpak

iTrader: (19)

I f this is your first try at track events then you do not need race rubber, suspension mods or brake upgrades other than fluid and pads.

I just came from my third track day yesterday at which I had the Carbotech XP's in front and Carbotech + in back, boy they were nice in stopping but agressive with the rotors, although wear was even. I think I will do a few more events with this configuration and until I start getting good where I am running at the times experienced drivers are then I will get a Stoptech upgrade. If you get really good even the Brembos don't seem good enough, my instructor has a Track model and he had changed his front Mrembos to Stoptech and said they were much better.

If you are experienced then you need to get R compund, Stptechs and S tune suspension to be happy. But if you are just starting out just upgrade the brakes (pads/fluid) and upgrade slowly as your talent improves and the equipment is holding you back not your confidence, believe me it is hard to get used to going down a straightaway at 110 and waiting until the last minute to brake or to start on the gas while you still coming out of the turn but wow what a rush, if you have this car and don't go out there you are missing so much that this car has to offer.

slay2k

Thanks for the input again..

So I'm going to locate myself some fluid and pads.. any recommendations where I can get both online ? Or both in a local PepBoys or something ?

I'll probably go somewhere to have them installed properly.

-slay

GaryK

Why do you say this? There is nothing wrong with running a harness without a cage as long as the harness is installed properly. Not having a rollbar/rollcage can make it harder to install a harness properly, but I don't see how this is asking for a broken neck...

westpak

iTrader: (19)

I bought mine from Carbotech, do a search for MaddMatt as an ID, he is from Carbotech and has some good informational posts regarding breaks. That is my extent of experience buying track pads, I also bought thier Bobcats for street, you will get various opinions as to which ones to get but unless you have extensive experience with the different pads it is hard to tell.

Try doing the install of the pads, not only will you save money because after the event you will want to change back to street pads, but in case you go through a set of pads during the event you will be able to change them yourself, it is very easy.

1. Remove wheel
2. Remove upper sliding pin (rear brakes) or lower sliding pin (front brakes)
3. Use clamp to squeeze piston as new pads will be thicker.
4. Swing caliper out of way pull pads off
5. put pads in
6. screw sliding pin back in
7. put wheel back on

The longest time is taking the wheel off. And keep an eye on the brake fluid reservoir so it doesn't overflow as you squeeze calipers, you might want to remove some fluid.

Caswell

Must... control... jealous rage! The Corkscrew is only reason I ever want to visit California.

droideka

At your first track event you should be fine just upgrading the fluid. I came back after day one (Sat) and raved about the stock brakes. Reason? I was a ***** and wasn't pushing as hard as I could have in the braking zone. On day two (Sun) in the last two sessions of the day I didn't have any confidence in the brakes.

I did a total of eight 20 minute sessions over the weekend. 150+ miles. If this had been my second or third event, and I was going ***** out all weekend, I would have been limping home on the stock brakes. I did the StopTech upgrade simply because I know what's going to happen to stock brakes on my local track. There's WAY too much heat being generated in the stock rotor/caliper combo to inspire confidence in two 100+ mile braking zones per lap. I was experiencing pad fade, NOT pedal fade on a pad that was rated to 950 degrees. Like I've mentioned before, everything was incinerated inside the stock calipers when I took them apart a week later.

slay2k

Well I've just talked to the Director of Club Racing over at SCCA national headquarters on the phone for about 30 minutes.

There's good news and bad news it seems, for me.

The bad news is he shattered my expectations. How ? Because in order for me to eventually participate in those "Club Racing" competitions that these guys hold about 300 times a year, it would require that I convert my car into a racing mobile, full with a roll cage, a harness, fire extinguisher, and so forth.

To make it even worse, to even attend an SCCA Racing School, you need all of the above! And as much as I'd like to turn this into a race car, it is my daily driver! So I can't see myself doing that

Now the good news. Thankfully, I've located a place called pdadrivingschool.com, which holds HPDE events at the local tracks in the NorthEast region, for about $180 a pop. I'm scheduling a session for next week.

This is one of those "limited passing, no competition" track events, and as such they don't require anything except a helmet and some working seat-belts to participate. Plus, you get a nice amount of time on the track, as well as classroom instruction.

I'm hoping that if I like it (How can I not?), and don't wreck my car, I'll attend a whole bunch of these.. albeit at $180 a pop they'll add up pretty quick.

Droid - and others.. what kind of racing do you do ? What kind of track time have you put in ? I'm fairly sure that many of you guys don't have rollcages in your cars... so do you just attend these HPDE events, and base that as your primary track activity ?

Anyway, I spoke to Matt over at Carbotech, who's been extremely helpful with everything.. and for my first event I'm gonna go fry my stock pads, and buy some cheap high-temp brake fluid "just in case". Why ? Because I'm going to replace the stock pads with Bobcats anyway... ^_^

By the way, what should I be looking for when I'm at the track ? What does a loss in the brake fluid reservoir mean ? What actually happens to that fluid ? What should I do if I feel the brakes fading ? I'd appreciate some explanation of that as well.

THANKS MUCH TO EVERYONE WHO REPLIED THUS FAR! You've been making a huge difference, and I am much obliged.

-slay

droideka

OK, OK, I hope I don't give the impression I'm some kind of track superstar because I'm NOT. HPDEs are enough for me. I've done one so far. Two days, eight sessions, 150 miles. I'm just getting started. Do I wish there was one every weekend at my local track? Absolutely, but if I really get bitten by the racing bug, I'm going straight to the Spec Maita class due to the low cost of entry and maintanance costs. I wouldn't dream of trying to race the Z door-to-door.

Don't be fooled by the description of the HPDEs as low risk, limited passing. You CAN go ***** out if you've got the *****. You CAN really f**k up and tear your car to pieces if you're not paying attention. You CAN drive the car on the absolute edge of it's adhesion limits and learn more in one day on the track than you ever knew on the street. Take it easy, take it slow. Most importantly, have FUN!

negcamber

LOL...it really isn't that bad. I know several folks that use SOLO I legal cars for the street.

Quote:

By the way, what should I be looking for when I'm at the track ? What does a loss in the brake fluid reservoir mean ? What actually happens to that fluid ? What should I do if I feel the brakes fading ? I'd appreciate some explanation of that as well.

There are actually a few different kinds of brake fade:

1) Hydraulic fade. The brake fluid actually boils. The brake pedal will become very soft and mushy when that happens...it will literally feel like you have no brakes. After it happens the fix is to bleed the brakes, which is not a big deal. To prevent this, get good high temp fluid...I'm not sure there is such a thing as cheap high temp fluid. I use the Motul and it costs about $10-15 for a bottle...it will at least take two bottles to completely flush the system of the oem fluid and I'd buy 3 to be safe.

2) So called "green fade". Especially with new pads that have not been heated often, gasses will escape and form a barrier between the pad and the rotor...kind of like an air hockey effect. The pedal will feel hard, but the car will not stop. The fix is to let off the brakes and apply more gently and modulate. Hopefully, your ABS will do that for you, but the effect will still be that the car will not stop nearly as well. The best way to prevent this is to properly bed the pads...your Bobcats should come with bedding instructions. Usually, making progressively faster stops from higher and higher speeds to heat the pads up and force the gasses out.

3) Pad fade. The roughness of the pad surface is couched as a number called the coefficient of friction. The pad's coefficient of friction peaks at a certain temperature range...for example on the Bobcats the coefficient of friction peaks between ambient air temp and 900F. If you exceed that temp, the pad's coefficient of friction become worse...usually a lot worse. This is partly from the pad material melting (or usually the bonding epoxy). Obviously, a liquid has a much lower (worse) coefficient of friction than a solid. The pedal will feel somewhat more mushy and the car will not slow as quickly. The fix is to slow down and let the pads cool...however, you may need to replace the pads after this happens, especially if you get them way too hot. What can happen is that as the surface of the pad cools and re-solidifies will have a very smooth glaze, which is not conducive to good braking. A light glaze can be warn away by normal driving, but if you really over do it, then new pads will be the best thing to do (although I have seen some folks take a file or sandpaper to the pad to get rid of the glaze...but I'd rather not)

Kayaalp

Just a thought from someone who has done 20-30 rack days over the last couple of seasons. Once you do a handful of HPDE's, you'll want track rubber. Even the best street tires suck compared to r-compounds on the track. Keep a set of wheels for the street and pick up a set of 17 inch lightweight wheels for the track. Believe me, you'll want to "swap them every time you go to the treack." Buy a $35 hydraulic jack and it'll take less then 1/2 an hour to change wheels before a trackday. Besides, you'll want to switch from street pads to race compounds, so the wheels need to come off anyway.

Of course. The SCCA is a race sanctioning body! You can't realistically expect to run a street car at their events. Besides, the SCCA doesn't exactly frown upon contact. I wouldn't risk my street car in a setting like that. Besides, you should stick to HPDE's before you get into club racing. By the time you're ready for wheel-to-wheel racing, I think you'll find that it makes sense to invest in a dedicated race car. Look into the BMW CCA and the local PCA.

Emre

slay2k

What a wealth of information.

Thank you everyone for contributing.. hopefully I'll keep you posted on my track experiences

Got my first HPDE scheduled for next week at the Poconos track Feel free to join me

-slay