The Potential Cost of going N/A?
07-24-2008, 09:31 AM
#1
The Potential Cost of going N/A?
It seems no one mentions the actual cost associated with a built n/a motor or the potential parts list cost, is it really that scary, lol. I realize everyone's build, goals and desires are different and maybe thats the reason. So I thought I would throw a couple scenarios out there just to help others who may be considering it. Such as myself, a Z owner who want to keep his 2004.5 (Z) with 90k approaching alive. I've been burning oil for about 20k now (nothing serious) and feel a built n/a motor would bring her back to life. My dream build is about 15k away... I figure most parts will be pretty worn out by then, so why not re-build with more performance in mind.
I don’t want this thread to go too deep into the build (cost of polishing a bolt) or misc. accessories, but would like to keep the discussion centered primarily on the engine and what it takes to build a reliable high compression VQ motor.
BTW, I'm a noob to this area so be polite
We could start off with some of Adam's(Z1's) build...
Internals: Final Compression checked in at 11.3:1
Weisco Pistons (.020 over stock)
Eagle rods
$1225 – combo from Z1
ARP rod bolts
$190
Fully balanced and blueprinted - not only balanced as individual components, but also balanced as a rotating assembly
$?
OE Nissan bearings
$10?
Full Ported and polished heads
$?
5 angle valve job (stock Nissan valves)
$?
Tomei 268 cams (268 duration, 10.5mm lift)
$710
NISMO valvesprings
$290
NISMO headgaskets
$362
Lots of time spent porting stock, non rev up lower plenum -we logged over 100 hours between the heads and plenum, going off recommendations from MCR Japan, as well as things we found on our own.
$?
Motordyne 1/4 inch spacer
$250
Unorthodox underdriven crank pulley
$235
New: water pump, rev up oil pump, idler pullies (OEM)
$83, $207, $180?
Just to give an idea, this is the cost of only the priced parts! (Z1) feel free to add or change the $ list at whim...
$3742
Zquicksilver
ps I'll follow up with my (desired... probably off $ by a lot) build and parts list soon!
I don’t want this thread to go too deep into the build (cost of polishing a bolt) or misc. accessories, but would like to keep the discussion centered primarily on the engine and what it takes to build a reliable high compression VQ motor.
BTW, I'm a noob to this area so be polite
We could start off with some of Adam's(Z1's) build...
Internals: Final Compression checked in at 11.3:1
Weisco Pistons (.020 over stock)
Eagle rods
$1225 – combo from Z1
ARP rod bolts
$190
Fully balanced and blueprinted - not only balanced as individual components, but also balanced as a rotating assembly
$?
OE Nissan bearings
$10?
Full Ported and polished heads
$?
5 angle valve job (stock Nissan valves)
$?
Tomei 268 cams (268 duration, 10.5mm lift)
$710
NISMO valvesprings
$290
NISMO headgaskets
$362
Lots of time spent porting stock, non rev up lower plenum -we logged over 100 hours between the heads and plenum, going off recommendations from MCR Japan, as well as things we found on our own.
$?
Motordyne 1/4 inch spacer
$250
Unorthodox underdriven crank pulley
$235
New: water pump, rev up oil pump, idler pullies (OEM)
$83, $207, $180?
Just to give an idea, this is the cost of only the priced parts! (Z1) feel free to add or change the $ list at whim...
$3742
Zquicksilver
ps I'll follow up with my (desired... probably off $ by a lot) build and parts list soon!
Last edited by Zquicksilver; 07-24-2008 at 11:48 AM.
07-24-2008, 01:24 PM
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Most rod kits should come with ARP or some kind of rod bolts, sometimes it isn't even the stock style. So you don't really need that unless it specifically says you do.
Underdrive pulleys have mixed reviews. I personally wouldn't recommend it if you have a build high reving engine.
You might want to research which head gasket you use. The OEM HR looks promising. Again there are different opinions on each.
I don't know if you need the belt idler pulleys unless there is something wrong with your original ones. If you are talking about the timing chain tensioners then yes I would replace those.
The labor, machining, and balancing are a big question mark. Especially if you are not building it yourself, which in that case you should be asking the shops more than likely.
Underdrive pulleys have mixed reviews. I personally wouldn't recommend it if you have a build high reving engine.
You might want to research which head gasket you use. The OEM HR looks promising. Again there are different opinions on each.
I don't know if you need the belt idler pulleys unless there is something wrong with your original ones. If you are talking about the timing chain tensioners then yes I would replace those.
The labor, machining, and balancing are a big question mark. Especially if you are not building it yourself, which in that case you should be asking the shops more than likely.
07-24-2008, 01:37 PM
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idlers are wear items..if you're going through the expense of building a motor, I'd just assume do everything new (water pump, oil pump, tensioners, idlers, etc), but that's just me. This is not a great engine to work on in the car, so I wanted to just do everything from the get go
as far as costs, it costs just as much to build a proper NA motor as it does to buy a twin turbo kit with supporting mods (for use on stock engine)
Couple corrections to your list (the above will make sense afterwards)
$10 for OE Nissan bearings? Where can you get that price, I'll take 1000!
Tomei 268 are not made anymore, but still, all their cams are the same price. Tomei cams are not $710...that is for 2 cams, not a set of 4. We list them per pair on our site for those who want to stagger them, and we have them listed as a set of 4 as well.
All told, after machining costs are factored in, and various misc items, it's about a $10k project, not including clutch, flywheel, ems, install, headers, intake, tuning, etc.
as far as costs, it costs just as much to build a proper NA motor as it does to buy a twin turbo kit with supporting mods (for use on stock engine)
Couple corrections to your list (the above will make sense afterwards)
$10 for OE Nissan bearings? Where can you get that price, I'll take 1000!
Tomei 268 are not made anymore, but still, all their cams are the same price. Tomei cams are not $710...that is for 2 cams, not a set of 4. We list them per pair on our site for those who want to stagger them, and we have them listed as a set of 4 as well.
All told, after machining costs are factored in, and various misc items, it's about a $10k project, not including clutch, flywheel, ems, install, headers, intake, tuning, etc.
Last edited by Z1 Performance; 07-24-2008 at 01:52 PM.
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07-24-2008, 04:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Nexx
keep in mind, they'll never have any sort of torque even when they hit 300whp.
07-25-2008, 05:38 AM
#10
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Originally Posted by 06dieselZ
Wy is it so hard for us to hit 300 whp?
Yet the honda guys hit 300 fwhp no problem.
Yet the honda guys hit 300 fwhp no problem.
07-25-2008, 10:02 AM
#11
Originally Posted by Z1 Performance
idlers are wear items..if you're going through the expense of building a motor, I'd just assume do everything new (water pump, oil pump, tensioners, idlers, etc), but that's just me. This is not a great engine to work on in the car, so I wanted to just do everything from the get go
as far as costs, it costs just as much to build a proper NA motor as it does to buy a twin turbo kit with supporting mods (for use on stock engine)
Couple corrections to your list (the above will make sense afterwards)
$10 for OE Nissan bearings? Where can you get that price, I'll take 1000!
Tomei 268 are not made anymore, but still, all their cams are the same price. Tomei cams are not $710...that is for 2 cams, not a set of 4. We list them per pair on our site for those who want to stagger them, and we have them listed as a set of 4 as well.
All told, after machining costs are factored in, and various misc items, it's about a $10k project, not including clutch, flywheel, ems, install, headers, intake, tuning, etc.
as far as costs, it costs just as much to build a proper NA motor as it does to buy a twin turbo kit with supporting mods (for use on stock engine)
Couple corrections to your list (the above will make sense afterwards)
$10 for OE Nissan bearings? Where can you get that price, I'll take 1000!
Tomei 268 are not made anymore, but still, all their cams are the same price. Tomei cams are not $710...that is for 2 cams, not a set of 4. We list them per pair on our site for those who want to stagger them, and we have them listed as a set of 4 as well.
All told, after machining costs are factored in, and various misc items, it's about a $10k project, not including clutch, flywheel, ems, install, headers, intake, tuning, etc.
Z1 So I can add more $ to that parts list of yours... I just saw the bearing $ and figured it was a single bearing. Not sure how many were required. And the cams, well I guess put two on the tab
I was pulling OEM parts from here...http://www.trademotion.com/partlocat...=25&model=350z
So $10k... thats still cheaper than buying an 08 Z! Even if you bought a new one and tuned it in stock form the 07+ engine wouldn't even come close. Based on what we've seen here in this n/a subforum.
Something to think about! I'm still putting my dream parts list together, lol. BTW, my current parts list would only require upgrades to the fuel pump (high-flow Walbro), injectors (380cc?), Pathfinder cooling upgrade and probably a few minor things, but not much.
Zquicksilver
Last edited by Zquicksilver; 07-25-2008 at 10:25 AM.
07-25-2008, 12:55 PM
#12
Please go FI. I don;t want to read the thread after you build, complaining
about your whp/cost. That said, in a few months you should be able
to find a high mile (40k) HR for about $20k. Maybe less. Let;s see if
gas cracks the $5/gallon mark.
Heh . . . Ewww
about your whp/cost. That said, in a few months you should be able
to find a high mile (40k) HR for about $20k. Maybe less. Let;s see if
gas cracks the $5/gallon mark.
Heh . . . Ewww
07-25-2008, 01:00 PM
#13
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Originally Posted by Zquicksilver
Z1 So I can add more $ to that parts list of yours... I just saw the bearing $ and figured it was a single bearing. Not sure how many were required. And the cams, well I guess put two on the tab
I was pulling OEM parts from here...http://www.trademotion.com/partlocat...=25&model=350z
So $10k... thats still cheaper than buying an 08 Z! Even if you bought a new one and tuned it in stock form the 07+ engine wouldn't even come close. Based on what we've seen here in this n/a subforum.
Something to think about! I'm still putting my dream parts list together, lol. BTW, my current parts list would only require upgrades to the fuel pump (high-flow Walbro), injectors (380cc?), Pathfinder cooling upgrade and probably a few minor things, but not much.
Zquicksilver
07-25-2008, 01:51 PM
#14
Originally Posted by lgear080
Please go FI. I don;t want to read the thread after you build, complaining
about your whp/cost. That said, in a few months you should be able
to find a high mile (40k) HR for about $20k. Maybe less. Let;s see if
gas cracks the $5/gallon mark.
Heh . . . Ewww
about your whp/cost. That said, in a few months you should be able
to find a high mile (40k) HR for about $20k. Maybe less. Let;s see if
gas cracks the $5/gallon mark.
Heh . . . Ewww
Thanks but no thanks... throwing FI on my DD at this point would be kind of crazy... 90k on the OD!? And I've been beating on my car shortly after the break in period, lol!
At this point I still think I could put a high compression motor together yielding 275-280whp with a short list of parts. My particular project justifies new pistons, bearings, valves, springs, etc.....
Besides, I already have supporting mods that push me towards a higher revving n/a motor.
Zquicksilver
07-26-2008, 06:40 PM
#15
I will be posting the answer to this thread dead on. My machinist is trustworthy but slower than death. I am doing a wiseco/eagle lowend with bc 264 cams retainers and springs. My plan is to just eliminate the casting flaws as far as porting goes(spent 3 hours the other days cleaning up the lower plenum). I am aware that people say that is not where the power is but I can be consistent as I am not eliminating much material. I am going to post a full price sheet with all of the mods. As far as power...if its over 290whp and reliable I don't care. Redline 8k or so. An idea of how slow the machinist is.... I dropped off the block and all the new internals for match boring, balancing, and measuring in march. One great thing about na is without that huge fi torque there is a lot more driveline reliability.
07-30-2008, 05:54 AM
#17
Originally Posted by tuko316
what is the pathfinder cooling mod? i have never heard of this. sorry for the noobness.
http://www.thenismoshop.com/ikorb.ph...oduct_id=12353
Zquicksilver
08-03-2008, 07:05 AM
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Think about custom bearings as the newer oem Nissan are lead free and thus sensitive to oil overheats even at 250F. Or a larger sump and extra fan thermocontrolled oil cooler.
Synthetic oil may be great but not if the bearings change on their own.
Synthetic oil may be great but not if the bearings change on their own.