Oceanside

Hi all,

So I'm a little late to the party on this one.

Recently I came across Alex Kelsey's MC2 car on Matt Farah's YouTube channel (link), I fell in love with the engine sound (here and here) that his crazy fantastic rally car makes. I started looking for some details on it and found out that it's an old Formula Renault (FR) 3.5L V6. More to my surprise is that it's based on a factory motor (albeit a super peppy version) the Nissan's VQ35. I started looking around for details on this motor like who built the thing and what is inside it to make it sound so wonderrrrrful. However I'm coming up semi-empty handed.

Ultimately I would like to see if I could recreate something that sounds like this for an upcoming project. At this point I am more interested in making something that a) sounds great b) easy-ish it maintain and c) doesn't have to make gobs of power, but it if ends up doing that, I'd be pretty okay with that side effect.

Here's what I know so far:
-The motor in FR trim makes 425hp @ 8500rpm (source) with a redline of 9500 rpm. I'm going to say that is engine hp. (source)
-Alex's MC2 is a little more conservative with engine speed and hp of 8500 rpm and 450-460hp respectively. (source- starts when talking about engine)
-Sasha (post list here) from OnPointDyno has managed to make 400hp (!!!) with his 350, but doesn't (to my ears anyway) seem to scream quite like the FR engine. Sasha's running a full long tube exhaust system (source) whereas Alex is running headers, Burns Stainless resonators, a bendy bit, another bendy bit and then out.

My ideas:
-lighter/stronger aftermarket pistons, rods, fasteners (CP-Carillo, JE)
-more aggressive cams with correct springs and retainers (JWT seems to be the common choice here)
-lighter valves (Ferrera)
-lighter flywheel
-shorty exhaust system- headers, collector, and collector extension
-upgraded oil pump
-oh yeah and tuning....kinda important

Basically I'm looking for ideas on how to get THAT sound and have the engine live around 8500 rpm without beating the valvetrain to death.

Thoughts?

Thanks!

Oceanside

HRMoneyPit

Renault owns bug part of Nissan and the engine is a Renault but if I'm not mistaking

terrasmak

iTrader: (8)

At 8500 rpm, I would worry most about the oil pump.

MB037

iTrader: (1)

From what I've done in some racing sims, it was an 8500rpm limit, while the replacement Zytek/Nissan/Renault V8 is 530hp at >9000rpm.

Also check out the Megane Trophy 3.5 series that Renault run, again they use a VQ unit, not as hot as the WSR unit though IIRC.

Oceanside

Hi all,

Think I found the folks that built this motor. Looks like it's based on a VQ35 and revs to 9500 and makes 500bhp.

terrasmak- Looks like this build is dry sumped so you were right about the oiling.

http://solutionf.fr/component/content/article/142

Conway_160

iTrader: (1)

Crazy modified vq, i dont see vvt, cam postion sensors, the entire front timing cover is different.

MB037

iTrader: (1)

I'd surely say the Renault racing division have had their hands on that unit haha. Who better, with all their years in f1 engines

bealljk

iTrader: (13)

tread lightly ... that sounds comes at un-godly high RPMs and with a dry sump oil systems you are looking at thousands of dollars...check out Jeremiah's modified VQ oil pump (TotalD / sucker punch motorsports) if you're serious about spinning the motor that high ... also get good at rebuilding the engine yourself...

I take **** for this but I ran test pipes along with a stillen true dual exhaust and at 5500 - 6500 rpm it had a raspy / spitty tone that I thought was sexy as hell...

MB037

iTrader: (1)

Yes exactly, but probably more like tens of thousands of dollars. Sasha got 370-380 hp out of his machine? With a 3.7l increase too iirc.

9k rpm out of 1.8 Honda? It's very impressive for a stock engine. But >9200rpm out of a 3.5 that isn't very oversquare in its bore/stroke? It will take a lot of work to do it right.

There's a big cost in tuning NA engines, but I also see it as a big cost in terms of use of the engine and the maintenance. I'm more into motorbikes, and that is where you have very highly tuned, high reving engines. The engineers get some incredible power figures out of small engines, but you can see how peaky the engines end up by looking at the dyno sheets, especially as there is no variable valve timing on bikes yet (at least a reliable and good implementation). That's one thing that race VQ looks to have cut, probably for reliability and simplicity, especially with the engine not straying far from its upper rev band

Getting to the point where you are bringing in titanium conrods, valves, super big cams, big compression, to get the extra rpm to make the power, you can seriously cut down the life of the engine. The WSBK race life of the engine in my bike is 1000-2000kms. Iirc, crank replaced at 1000kms, rods, valves, pistons, head, cases, pretty much everything else is junked at 2000kms. That was to get an extra 30 odd hp with another 1500 odd rpm (from 13,500 to 15,000).

Of course it depends on how it's run, but we also don't know the internals of that engine either. I would love to see what it's like inside.
It's always why I'm so impressed by well developed NA engines, it can take a lot of work in lots of areas to extract the power. I love FI too, and it certainly can be a far more practical way to get great power gains, while keeping much of the usability

Oceanside

Hi all,

So a little more info on part selection with the goal of getting revs out of that motor.

Found this and this over at EngineLabs.com. I have to say a big wow to Shane T and the McGregor's for getting 2000hp out of a teensy 3.5L V6. That's pretty impressive all while spinning 9500rpm.

According to the article here are some of the parts
-factory steel sleeved block
-forged Nismo crank- this is a little odd becuase looking at the Nismo catalogue here, I don't see a crank. Am I missing something?
-factory heads, but I'm going to guess that they have been ported and polished pretty extensively

-JE pistons (link)- I'm going to guess they are using the FSR +0.5mm over 8.5:1 at the bare minimum if not some custom ones
-aluminum rods- anyone know who makes aluminum rods for this motor? All the rods I can find including the Cosworth ones are steel. Maybe a custom job?
-Petersen dry sump- can't figure out which one in the photos. Maybe you guys can?

-Ferrea titanium intake valves- don't see a listing for VQ35 titanium valves (either solid or hollow) so I'm going to go with a custom set.
-Ferrea Inconel exhaust valves- Looks like Ferrea's Super Alloy line is Inconel (link). Looks like they are an actual part number and +1mm over!! (link)
-Ferrea springs- In the catalogue you get your choice of single or double (link). For the rev happy motor I'm researching here, I would go with the double ones. Cosworth's ultra high rev springs (link) are the ones I would imagine go into their CNC Ported Big Valve Heads that apparently will live up to 10500rpm (link).
-Web cams- doesn't look like they make a cam for the VQ35 motor. Interesting note, they DO make a set of cams for military Pinzgauer 710 M troop transport. #funfactoftheday. I think that a call to Jim Wolfe might be in order as they seem to be a pretty defacto choice for this motor and reading in other NA build threads everyone has been impressed with his knowledge on the subject backed up by the performance of his cams.

-the other stuff is for the turbo setup and the methanol EFI. Interesting for sure, but not something I will ever get into on this build.

-MoTec M800 ECU- Don't know too much about this ECU, but Sasha released a MoTec M130 PnP piggyback box (I think?) for this motor. Interesting note- you can buy the map from him that put down the 420rwhp for his Kels 350Z.
-Injectors- I don't know, but I might take a look at some aftermarket injectors. I have not idea if this is true, but something to research further is if stock injectors can cycle (and accurately) enough at higher revs. It would really suck to suddenly have a wacky lean condition at the top end of the rev range. Anyone have any ideas about this?

Other things that HAVEN'T been mentioned with this is the lack of variable valve components both here and in the Solution F motor as Conway_180 and MB037 pointed out.

bealljk- As it comes to rebuilds- I know this is going to be a fact of life. I've been thinking about how to get this motor in and out easily for this exact reason.

bealljk & MB037- I know this won't be a cheap conponent, but keep this thing in a good supply of oil is worth the cost. Both the McGregor's and Soultion F have gone this way. Also, with a dry sump, I have more choice as to where I mount the oil reservoir.....maybe even make it easy to drain....that would be kinda cool.

Once again I'll state that I'm not really looking for huge power (which sounds goofy), but revs and reliability. If I build this motor correctly and get cams and heads that can rev without their flow curve falling apart, I'm sure I will be happy with the level of power, especially in a light car.

Thanks for all your input!!

Ocean

Oceanside

Hi all,

Just thinking today while making taco beef, anyone have any experience removing the VVT unit from the VQ? Anyone running a VQ with no VVT?

Anyone like taco beef?

Ocean

BluestreamDE

What a wonderful exhaust note! Surprised to see it was a VQ, but i bet it costed waay too much money to get it to where it is now.

rocks

iTrader: (1)

If you want to do this cheaper use stock rods with arp bolts, have it balanced with your flywheel, get a nismo or similar oil pump. Revup pump will do short bursts of 7500-7700 rpms with no problem. Shifted a built motor daily at 8000 rpms for three years. I wouldnt go bigger than a c8 jim wolf cam on the street. You will at least a 05-06 revup engine for the exhaust vvt. 12.0:1 compression to run pump gas.

My last engine, with jim wolf s7 and cam tuning made nice power from 5500-7500 rpms. Lots of trial and error. With bigger cams it will also idle worse to make the power you want you would need the idle set at something like 1700+rpms . Not really good for the street like that.

Oceanside

Hi all,

Thanks for the comments. I'll address some of them a little further below. Sorry for the lack of updates, but I had to move in 3 days with 2 days notice. Kinda wiped me out for a while.

I'm aware that this is going to be a hard and somewhat expensive build.....however I'm never one to do the easy/straightforward thing.

Where to begin?? During all those trips to and from the new house, I was thinking about my goals for this project and perhaps modifying them. I wrote earlier that:
-a) sounds great
-b) easy-ish it maintain and
-c) doesn't have to make gobs of power, but it if ends up doing that, I'd be pretty okay with that side effect.

Here's the revised ones:
a) sounds great
b) easy-ish to maintain
c) try to make blow ups/boo boos/rebuilds/maintenance as cheap as I can reasonably make them
d) still not really looking for big power numbers, BUT I want to it to make power at the top end
e) create something that is more fun than serious to drive

I'll get into this a little further.
a) No change. Sounds fantastic.
b) I kind of want to drive this car as much as I can, and having to get a bunch of stuff out of the way to do periodic maintenance is plain annoying.
c) So I was thinking about all those gleaming Cosworth/NISMO heads and how seductive they look with their Cosworth/NISMO bespoke springs and valves. Now I am comparing that pleasant thought with the reality of "This is a race motor and I will probably break things." In order to meet goal b), maybe that might not be a hot idea to go with some super niche/borderline unobtainium (albeit mega mega cool) parts, especially if I have to repair/replace them. As it regards the heads, I think it's worth looking at seeing if it would be cheaper and/or faster to have have a fellow port factory heads so they flow when spun waaaay high. Apparently this is the route Sasha took with the Kels build.

If they can flow the air just as well (or close to it) that the Cosworth/NISMO ones can, I can also feel good about supporting a man in a shop and his livelihood and his family. Also if I need replacements, the turnaround might be faster when a boo boo happens. I'm figuring that Cosworth might have to make these things to order, whereas a factory head can be eBay'ed, dropped off at the machinists, and assembled using off the shelf (or off the shelf-ish) parts. What do you think?
d) Uhh, see e)
e) Seeing as the motor gives the car a lot of it's character, I was thinking that I should factor that into my goals. Reading what MB037 was saying about the motor in his WSBK.... well.... it got me thinking, "Am I building a car to win races or to win smiles?"

Thinking about all the vehicles I've driven, the ones that make me smile the most weren't the super fast, hardcore superleggera types, but the ones that looked and sounded super powerful, but sorta weren't. The old adage about "a slow bike ridden fast" comes to mind. Also seeing the guy in his mildly modified Miata smoking the other guy in his 911RS2 or every single one of the Ninja 300 class routinely beating the bottom third of the Supersport 600 class comes to mind. Maybe that's why I'm not too concerned about power numbers, but rather behaviour as subconsciously (well now consciously) I want to build something outrageous and shouty, but not too serious. I'll let you amateur psychiatrists comment on that last statement below.....

So philosophy aside, here are some new facts I've learned.
Fontana Nissan has got some pretty good build info on their 350z car. I won't go over everything, but just hit the stuff that I found relevant to this build.

-Valve springs- Originally, the motor was build with double valve springs, but after running the car and breaking some parts they ended up getting going to a beehive spring which made the motor run smoother and overall "better". This makes sense to me as a single spring will offer less resistance to a parts that is trying to move very, very quickly. The folks over at EngineLabs.com seem to agree....and add a whole bunch more info.
-Oiling- This like the FR Solution F motors, this motor is running a dry sump system to handle oiling duties- more specifically a Daily one (link and link).

bealljk- you're right. A dry sump system for the VQ35 is pretty pricey.

-Variable cams- Like Conway_160 noted about the FR engine, the Fontana Nissan had it's cam phasing deleted. I emailed them about this, but have not gotten a response. Larger photos here, here, and here.

rocks- Any idea if a C8 would breath up at 9000rpm. I'm okay with a fast idle.

BluestreamDE- Probably, but new crate Chevy LS (or like the delicious Steve Morris or Mast motorsports ones) aren't cheap either.

I have to give a big shout out to the folks on the Facebook group Engine Building 101 (Technical Discussion Board) for giving me some guidance (speedy replies too!) with this research.

Ocean

INTIMAZY

iTrader: (15)

So what exactly is missing from a build like Sash's compared to one of these monsters?

http://solutionf.fr/component/content/article/142

It seems like Sash's build was already very highly stretched to the limit. Any idea what kind of heads these Renault motors were running? Are the cams that much more aggressive than the JWT C10+s?
So many questions! Sash was an incredible boost to the NA US (and Canada, eh) VQ build information but I wish someone with intimate knowledge of these Renault Formula motors would click join.

They appear to lack VVT which is not terribly uncommon for full race builds since it just limits how extreme of a cam you can run. Keep in mind, VVT was originally designed with economy in mind in an era of EGR. Marketing and enthusiasts have made it "performance"

Oceanside

Hi all,

Just got a research/goals update post mod approved!! While I was waiting for that, INTIMAZY asked a pretty great question that has me thinking a bunch-

"So what exactly is missing from a build like Sash's compared to one of these monsters?"

I'm still learning about these motors and not an expert (well...not yet anyway...trying though!!) here are some thoughts I've have.

-Intake- Sasha’s car is running a verrrry slick CNC ported Jenvey ITB setup that he designed, built, and tuned (article links and video link). The FR cars are adding to this a tuned airbox (Sasha did experiment with this). However there is more going on with an FR style airbox that would allow it to flow more air into the engine.

One of the goals that an FR airbox aims to achieve is to use Bernoulli’s Principle to increase pressure, by slowing the air down by forcing it into an expansion chamber. You can increase this effect even more if you put the airbox on an already high pressure area (like the high pressure zone of an airfoil), and/or locate it a small distance from a parallel surface to avoid the low pressure boundary layer air. Once you get going really fast, (>150km/h) you do get a bit of a ram air effect increasing pressure as well. Another advantage of this airbox design is that the incoming air is cooler compared to the hot air under Sasha’s hood. Denser air = more oxygen = more fuel = more power. If you want to see some cool testing on this, Marty and Moog from Mighty Car Mods tested this out with Tuning Fork at the Haltech Dyno. Finally, this airbox design allows the engine to be fed air that is less turbulent aka "cleaner" or more laminar in nature (link and link).

-Exhaust- Kels the 350z is running a full exhaust system whereas the FR motor is running only short-ish open headers (here on Alex Kelsey’s car) which should allow less resistance to expelling the exhaust gases. I found an interesting video of (if you believe the title) a warmup of an FR car in some fellow’s shop. WOW does that thing rev up AND down fast. If you pause the video at 0:58, you can see there are 3 exhaust headers- so the right engine. More interestingly, the merge point of the collector is further back than the tubes on Alex’s MC2. I’m guessing that this is to tune the advantages of pressure wave tuning (scavenging) to a specific RPM. It appears that Sasha was doing some testing in this area too, but didn’t come to a solid conclusion. Also if anyone can translate German, I would be interested to hear what he has to say….and who the heck that guy is anyway- I got questions for him!!

-Valve Springs- Another area of difference could be the valve springs. It seems that the ultra high revving valve springs from Cosworth or from Ferrea are both dual spring designs. While dual springs are great at making springs behave at high rpm, they do increase the seat pressure and stress on the valvetrain...oh yeah and they’re heavier which doesn’t seem to be a property that is particularly desired at 9500rpm. So what’s the solution? The Fontana Nissan 350z wrestled with this issue (after breaking a cam (!!) and a few other things) and found a solution using beehive springs. Once installed, the motor was smoother and ran better. I’m okay with that outcome.

So who makes them? Well a Google search turns up a company called GSC Power-Division which I haven’t heard of before, but my interest in import V6’s is somewhat new. I emailed Supertech to find out if they can make custom beehives for the VQ35 or even better- a full valve kit, but just waiting for a response (Update- they don’t).

As JWT seems to be the de facto choice for cams, the stipulation is that you have to use his springs and retainers. It would be worth finding out if you could use Supertech beehives with the JWT cams. If not, any ideas on whose cams could be used? The Fontana Nissan page doesn’t spec a cam...interesting. Here’s a bigger picture if the front of the motor with the cover off. Can any eagle eyed readers figure out who makes this intake cam with the stamp "RE"?

Another option is pneumatic springs as suggested by a fellow on the Facebook Engine Building 101. I’m going to toss out the pneumatic ones as the tech is super cool, but I’m not cool (or rich) enough to warrant that tech, so beehives it is. Here is a good article on beehives.

Besides oversized valves, 5 angle valve seat cuts, hyper balancing everything, and the port and polish on the heads, that is kind of all the big stuff I was thinking about. The only other thing that might be occurring is that claims of 500hp and 9500rpm could have been oversold a little….’cuz no racer has ever done that…..

Thoughts?

Ocean

PS- Here’s some great photos of the Fontana Nissan 350z engine bay.

marsboy999

If you consider the fact that this engine is 500 at the crank and Sasha's 400+ at the wheels they are almost identical.

Oceanside

Hi all,


Sorry for the long delay.

Just got a research/goals update post mod approved!! While I was waiting for that, INTIMAZY asked a pretty great question that has me thinking a bunch-

"So what exactly is missing from a build like Sash's compared to one of these monsters?"

I'm still learning about these motors and not an expert (well...not yet anyway...trying though!!) here are some thoughts I've have.

-Intake- Sasha’s car is running a verrrry slick CNC ported Jenvey ITB setup that he designed, built, and tuned (article links and video link). The FR cars are adding to this a tuned airbox (Sasha did experiment with this). However there is more going on with an FR style airbox that would allow it to flow more air into the engine.

One of the goals that an FR airbox aims to achieve is to use Bernoulli’s Principle to increase pressure, by slowing the air down by forcing it into an expansion chamber. You can increase this effect even more if you put the airbox on an already high pressure area (like the high pressure zone of an airfoil), and/or locate it a small distance from a parallel surface to avoid the low pressure boundary layer air. Once you get going really fast, (>150km/h) you do get a bit of a ram air effect increasing pressure as well. Another advantage of this airbox design is that the incoming air is cooler compared to the hot air under Sasha’s hood. Denser air = more oxygen = more fuel = more power. If you want to see some cool testing on this, Marty and Moog from Mighty Car Mods tested this out with Tuning Fork at the Haltech Dyno. Finally, this airbox design allows the engine to be fed air that is less turbulent aka "cleaner" or more laminar in nature (link and link).

-Exhaust- Kels the 350z is running a full exhaust system whereas the FR motor is running only short-ish open headers (here on Alex Kelsey’s car) which should allow less resistance to expelling the exhaust gases. I found an interesting video of (if you believe the title) a warmup of an FR car in some fellow’s shop. WOW does that thing rev up AND down fast. If you pause the video at 0:58, you can see there are 3 exhaust headers- so the right engine. More interestingly, the merge point of the collector is further back than the tubes on Alex’s MC2. I’m guessing that this is to tune the advantages of pressure wave tuning (scavenging) to a specific RPM. It appears that Sasha was doing some testing in this area too, but didn’t come to a solid conclusion. Also if anyone can translate German, I would be interested to hear what he has to say….and who the heck that guy is anyway- I got questions for him!!

-Valve Springs- Another area of difference could be the valve springs. It seems that the ultra high revving valve springs from Cosworth or from Ferrea are both dual spring designs. While dual springs are great at making springs behave at high rpm, they do increase the seat pressure and stress on the valvetrain...oh yeah and they’re heavier which doesn’t seem to be a property that is particularly desired at 9500rpm. So what’s the solution? The Fontana Nissan 350z wrestled with this issue (after breaking a cam (!!) and a few other things) and found a solution using beehive springs. Once installed, the motor was smoother and ran better. I’m okay with that outcome.

So who makes them? Well a Google search turns up a company called GSC Power-Division which I haven’t heard of before, but my interest in import V6’s is somewhat new. I emailed Supertech to find out if they can make custom beehives for the VQ35 or even better- a full valve kit, but just waiting for a response (Update- they don’t).

As JWT seems to be the de facto choice for cams, the stipulation is that you have to use his springs and retainers. It would be worth finding out if you could use Supertech beehives with the JWT cams. If not, any ideas on whose cams could be used? The Fontana Nissan page doesn’t spec a cam...interesting. Here’s a bigger picture if the front of the motor with the cover off. Can any eagle eyed readers figure out who makes this intake cam with the stamp "RE"?

Another option is pneumatic springs as suggested by a fellow on the Facebook Engine Building 101. I’m going to toss out the pneumatic ones as the tech is super cool, but I’m not cool (or rich) enough to warrant that tech, so beehives it is. Here is a good article on beehives.

Besides oversized valves, 5 angle valve seat cuts, hyper balancing everything, and the port and polish on the heads, that is kind of all the big stuff I was thinking about. The only other thing that might be occurring is that claims of 500hp and 9500rpm could have been oversold a little….’cuz no racer has ever done that…..

Ocean

PS- Here’s some great photos of the Fontana Nissan 350z engine bay.

ZMoneyPIT

iTrader: (1)

Great thread! Have you had a chance to peer over at the GT300 yet? https://youtu.be/LSIOSVvpZ8w
BEAUTIFUL car that makes 480rwhp* unrestricted with the VQ35DE.
*Claims by someone I know who has worked on many racing teams in JP and often deals with these cars/engines so I trust it to be 100% true.
I really just wanted to post the beautiful exhaust noises this thing makes. If you want some more info about it let me know. I can try to find some more articles/attempt to get it from a source .

ZMoneyPIT

iTrader: (1)

Here's a good article on it. http://www.speedhunters.com/2015/08/second-life-a-nismo-super-gt-in-norway/ I would take this or the V8 that comes in the GT500 anyday. S3x on wheels.