booger

iTrader: (6)

Not wanting to get in it with you either . I think its Sentry that is taking this way off topic . I mentioned the BZM and GTM's battle as just a example of ethical questions being raised against GTM . I made no mention of Joedirt and had even forgotten who's motor it was .

sentry65

iTrader: (11)

well, it swings both ways - how do you know those were his "true colors" were you there? did you see the engine? Were you there listening in on everything?

what happened happened. But I don't believe JoeDirt wasn't in control of what was going on with his engine. Maybe there were some influences, but they probably came from all sides. In the end he went with his gut and we can't fault that because we weren't in his situation in the middle of it all.

The reason I quoted Sam and not Todd was weren't you wanting to ask Sam about the issue? He already has his view and posted it months ago. Seems doubtful he'd say anything different

Call up Sam if you have some real things to address. Otherwise I'd think GTM would do better to not respond online to you because you already know you'll probably just escalate the drama and I'm guessing they have better things to do than beat a dead horse that none of us really know the details on for any of these cases

booger

iTrader: (6)

By true colors ...I meant he bashed BZM's , showed no respect for another shop , and nfluenced the customer into breaking a warranty . All to get the customers buisness . Thats what I saw unfold on this site.


so back to reason for my posts

I have seen nothing but great built cars come out of GTM and I sure they do nothing but quality work . And from what I hear and pic's Ive seen , they have tons of cars coming in and out of thier shop .
So why do ethical questions keep coming up in my opinion ? I mean they shouldnt be hurting for buisness and look to be doing great . And I'll be the first to say , I do hold some bad feelings for Sam because of questions that were not answered about some of his builds . And with this thread....more questions go un answered . So lets look back at , some of I might not get the story exactly right and both sides of the stories were never told . But what I precieve from what Ive read by all the parties that posted on this site and in the threads that lead me to believe what I believe.

[1] Sam comes on this site and says he has a customer that came in with a bad motor that was built by BZM's .
[2] Customer [ for some reason ] lets GTM tear down the motor instead of sending it back to BZM . Which is ethical question #1
[3] Sam bashes BZM's motos builds and came up with a bunch of reasons why the motor failed and all being the builders fault . WHich is ethical question #2
[4]Sam bills the customer 13 grand for a rebuild . Ethical question #3
[5]It has come to light that GTM built a motor for a member of this site and that motor blew . It basicly has been swept under the rug as to hide it from the public eye and members of this site . Ethical question #4
[6] This thread was posted a few months ago but I never really paid attention to it because it was just another ....LOOK AT WHAT WE DID....self promotional thread . The customer never even posts in the thread .
So some one bumps it up with a post and I start to read it . Let me say.....that the end results of this build are great . Looks like the customer got a great car back .
[7] Right off the bat some thing dont look right with what was used as a before dyno . Peak trq was at 3400rpm's on a AT5 . This dyno looks to be a MT6 dyno . Ethical question #5
[8] Sam says this was a SP built motor with SP cams .
[9] The tune [ if actually this car ] is just plain terrible . And should have not been able to leave the original shop .WHo tuned it ?
[10] Sam says customer said he wanted at least what his plate said [ 545whp ]
[11] WHy wasnt the SP motor good enough to get the customer what he wanted ? Ethical question #6
[12] Ethical question #7 Does GTM [ Sam ] see a blank check walk in the door and take full advantage of them when they do . Seems this customer could have been taken advantage of wanting good WHP . Seems his goal could have been easily obtained with the motor he had . A tranny build and a few other alterations could have gotten him there . WHy was a total rebuild stroker motor done ?
Im sure Im not the only one that wants to ask these questions . But it looks like Im the only one crazy enough to ask . Gtm is a sponsor of this site and has a lot of nuthuggers here ready to defend them to the death..lol . So Im sure I'll hear it from all sides . I may even be band for it .
Every shop on this site has had bad builds and they try to sweep them under the rug . But I dont think ethical questions should be . I dont think buisnesses with bad ethical buisness tactics should be let alone to take customers for thier hard earned money . I think the hard questions need to be asked and gotten out in the open so every one can discuss them and the truth be known . When peoples questions are ingnored , even more ethical questions arise , Thats my reason for this post .

sentry65

iTrader: (11)

lol OMG a shop tried to influence a customer!!!!!

how unmoral

booger

iTrader: (6)

UMMM...When he influences a customer into breaking a warranty from another shop and sponsor [ I think ] on this site ?

YESSSSSSS very UNMORAL !!!!!!!!

It was $13,000.00 Sam was going to.....and did make on the deal you know .

Gman2004

iTrader: (8)

+1. It seems the only people worried about what GTM charges its customers are the non-customers. I haven't seen any actual GTM customers posting about how GTM made them buy parts they didn't want.

sentry65

iTrader: (11)

OMG all these shops trying to get people to go FI and thus breaking their nissan/infiniti warrenty

OMG all the CA shops that put non-CARB legal FI parts on a CA car!!

OMG the horror!!!!

they must all be threatening their customers at gunpoint

booger

iTrader: (6)

LOL...when all else fails.....resort to making fun of it !!!!
funny chit man...funny chit!!!!!

sentry65

iTrader: (11)

sorry, but it's just insulting to JoeDirt for you to think GTM has some sort of jedi mind trick thing going on to force him to use their services.

Remember all he did was go there for a tune and minor things initially. He didn't have to do anything else, but did what he felt was the best way to go at that time

booger

iTrader: (6)

So Gman...whats your opinion on SGP ????

Gman2004

iTrader: (8)

They suck, but I have experience with them, so my opinion has some weight to it. Whether you want to believe my experience with them or not, that is up to you. When you pay a shop to install and tune a $3K plus EMS you expect it to be done correctly. They did not deliver that as well as a slew of other things they did a ghetto job on.

I believe they (SGP) fuked you on your first build and they only did good on it because you posted it on this forum. Yeah sure they handle the situation, but you had to pay for your motor to be uninstalled, shipped (both ways), and then reinstalled again didn't you? Whether they fixed your motor or not for free, YOU STILL GOT FUKED!

sentry65

iTrader: (11)

If I recall, Gman had Sam come over to texas and he fixed all SGP's mistakes

Gman2004

iTrader: (8)

Sam was at FP and I took my car there for him to fix Mark's jigga rig.

Gman2004

iTrader: (8)

I wish I would have took a picture of how my FCON was intalled. You know that clamping plastic thing that locks in the wires on the ECU? Well Mark ran a few wires through the clamp the wrong way and it wasn't able to fully clamp it down or you would splice those wires. You think you took the time to disconnect and rewire them correctly? *** no, he left it just that like. A fanstastic Ghetto install! Not the short of thing I would expect or want after spending more than $20K with him.

deisel

salesma what can you say. people just wanna sell u bull chit. even if they now u just spent 8k and its going to blow. we need to start looking at a company called ERL.they do engine builds. these guys from what I've heard and seen are good at what they do.

sentry65

iTrader: (11)

deisel, what ever happened with your engine? did you talk with GTM and have them tear it down?

IIQuickSilverII

iTrader: (13)

istn ERL (ftw) pretty much DARTON on the eastside

r0mey

iTrader: (35)

how about we keep joedirt's motor drama out of this thread. His motor has nothing to do with this car only relationship is the shop not the own or what the post was intended for.

To booger if you're questions are not answered to the level you feel is right why not pm the OP.

Sam@GTM

iTrader: (7)

Seems like someone was lonely over the holidays, lots of extra time to be on the forums? I am not trying to avoid any of your questions, I as simply out of the country. I briefly viewed the thread when I was away, but did not have time to respond until now, I also instructed George not to respond until I returned so I can address it myself. I know that makes you think we are hiding something, but some of us were spending time with family and friends over the holidays, didn't have time for the typical forum BS you seem to create. On another note sometimes I don't answer your questions because I don't think they are worth answering. For example look at the questions you have brought up in this thread. You are all over the place, bringing up old threads that have been completely forgotten.


You bring up BZM issue, JETPILOT issue, are you just bored or out to get us? For the record, I don't have any problem answering these questions for the simple fact that we are honest, love what we do, and have nothing to hide. I always took heated debates on the forum as good publicity. Here is why, if its something we did wrong, we will go far and beyond to make it right and take care of it. Which will only make is look better, because it shows that we do stand behind out work and what we do here, and if someone like yourself is always on the attack, bringing up false accusations, I am sure after our current customer and future customers read our response they will gain more respect for us and will continue/want to do business with us.

JoeDirtPharmD Engine Issue:

First off, I never came onto the forum and said that there was a bad engine built my BZM. That is your first assumption and you are wrong. I sent my findings to Don, with my detailed invoice on the cost of the repairs. I HAD NOT IDEA HE WAS GOING TO POST. That is something he decided to do on his own and there is nothing I could have done to stop that. I did not influence Don to do anything he did not want to do.

As far as the teardown inspection, everybody including BZM and Don knew the engine was going to be torn down and inspected by us. No gun was put to anyone’s head to do so. No one, including Todd, opposed this. What is unethical about this?

What you call "bashing" was us standing behind our findings. Don posted the results, people had questions, and we answered them. Regardless of how you interpret them.

As far as what we billed the customer, I don't see why you care about what other people pay to have quality work done. We offered Don a complete clean slate, he could have taken his car with ZERO owed to us. We did the following to the car and offered Don to take the care with no charge:

1-Tune the car, more than a full day due to problems with the car.
2-Remove the engine
3-Preform complete teardown inspection
4-Spend hours upon hours debating this whole fiasco on the internet.

And yet we offered Don a ZERO COST out of the situation if he felt he was mislead in any shape or form. Guess what? He still has his car here and we are finishing the project for him and are glad to do so. As a matter a fact he posted stating that he does not feel that we (GTM) have mislead him in any way and all charges were fair in his opinion. So it seems you know what’s going on, what’s ethical, fair or not, better than the owner of the car? I’m sorry we don't all live in some parts of the country where we can survive charging $50/hr. If the customer is 100% happy, why do you care?


JETPILOT Issue:

My friend, it seems you are wrong yet again. What engine that we built has blown? I can only assume you are talking about JETPILOTs engine which did NOT blow to our build; we have irrefutable evidence proving so by a third party. This engine was damaged due to a tuning issue on somebody's part, that is all I can say unless JETPILOT authorizes me to post more. But then if we post more information we would just be considered bashing in your eyes.


The car at hand:

The before and after dyno is the same car, whether you want to believe it or not. That car was so screwed up from Scotts Performance when it came in; here is some of the back-story with this car.

Customer spent over $30k at Scotts Performance for a built engine, aps twin turbo, installation and tuning. He was told his car made 545rwhp on their Dastek dyno. He was given a dynograph and invoice showing over 540rwhp, Carrillo Rods, SP Camshafts, CP Pistons, etc. the works.

Car came in because the customer felt that the car did not perform as expected. First thing we did was a preliminary inspection we showed no problems with the installation so we continued to put the car on the Dyno to see what it was actually making as far as power. What you see is what we got, regardless of what you may think, that is what the car did on our dyno before we touched ANYTHING on the car, plain and simple.

As far as your dyno analysis, which doesn't make sense, here are some points for you to consider:

First dynograph car was running on unichip (tuned by Scotts Performance) it was spiking to 15psi and tapering down to 11-12psi. APS stock actuators were used on the car, SP's method of increasing boost was to literally put the actuators in a vice, and pinch it, so it would make the spring stiffer and create more boost, very unstable. No Trans upgrades were done, this was a stock transmission. Also this dynograph was started at a different time that they later dynograph posted, there is no reason for this, just how things turned out.

Second dynograph car has a HKS FCon VPro (tuned by GTM) HKS EVC boost controller, Stage 3 heads, GTM Turbo cams, 4.2L GTM Stroker engine, Forge actuators, GTM Stage 3 A/T Trans build, and you expect the dyno graph to look the same? Come on...


Why did the customer need a 4.24L Stroker kit to make 600rwhp?

How many 5AT cars do you know making 600rwhp on 91 octane? None I would guess. This customer wanted a reliable 600rwhp that could make this power on pump gas. If you have a 6MT and a basic build, could you push it and make 600rwhp? Sure you could. The key is reliability and repeatability. It is more difficult to make 600rwhp on a 5AT than a 6MT, I think everyone on this forum at least knows that much.

The customer wanted a reliable car that would make 600rwhp all day, every day, no problem. If that is what you want then YES you do need a 4.2L stroker kit. Invest more into the engine so you can run less boost, have a car with amazing torque, and overall better feel.

Besides the facts mentioned above as to why we felt a 4.2L stroker was needed, when we tore down the SP engine, it had ealge rods (customer paid for carrillo) seems like another VRT. It is funny you are so eager to compare us to VRT and SP, shops that are now out of business for their unethical business practices.

These shops charged people for parts that they did not install, and you call us unethical because we sell our products that we believe in? Give me a break...


You really like to assume Booger, I don't. You think I should have told this customer that we could make 600rwhp on his 5AT Z, with a built engine that we had no idea how it was assembled, what components to use, etc. What if it didn't happen or something went wrong, what do I tell the customer? "Sorry I assumed it would be ok" People like this specific customer, are successful hardworking people, they work hard and play hard. They expect the best and they get the best from us.

This has taken enough of my time, and with that said I will no longer be responding to any of your questions Booger, they are not genuine and you are always trying to take a stab at us. I can assure you that we will be posting more and building more cars, we are proud of what we do here and again, have nothing to hide, without our customers we could have never gotten here in the first place.

Sam
GT Motorsports

booger

iTrader: (6)

George..Thanks for the PM

Sam
Thank you to for finally taking 5 minutes to respond to my questions . In the past Ive asked questions of you about SC builds of yours and was ignored . You answered other peoples questions at the same time . Seems you never have time to respond and always have to much on your plate when its convenient to use it .
But always have time to spend an hour or what ever it takes to post threads like this , to post up cars that you have built .
As far as this car . I still have a hard time believing the before dyno was a AT5 . Ive had mine on the dyno enough to know I cant get to WOT that fast with out it down shifting . And the trq. converter doesnt lock up till 4100rppm's
As far as why the motor was rebuilt with a stroker kit . I kow it would be something that you and the customer would only know . My comments on it were basicly to get you to respond . As were the ones about the motor that you built that blew .
On the other hand . From what I read in the thread where you basicly bashing BZM's , where you were not [ IMPO] being profesional at all . You looked to be doing nothing but trying increase your profits by making another shop look bad . remember , you just got done saying every one makes mistakes , but seems you didnt think so at the time that thread was active and you were pointing out every little mistake YOU THOUGHT BZM;s made on that motor .