Thanks, guys! I had allready corresponded with Dave B, after getting Gary's PM. He said, based on my experience, and what I told him was my level of comfort with passing, that I was more than suited for Group 3. If, after driving for a while in group 3, and I feel uncomfortable, he will gladly move me to group 2.

On another note, are any of you staying down there Saturday night? If so, what hotel?

 

Glad to hear it - you'll have a good time in that group.

The wife and I are staying at the Wingate Inn on Friday and Saturday night. It's one block north of the Highway 50 West exit at I-25, and a 5 - 10 minute drive from the track.

 

I'm not signed up for it...that's not to say that I won't get inspired at the last minute to go for even more track time, but I'm not planning on it. You?

 

I'm in the same situation - not signed up for it, but may opt to do the night session once I'm there. It's a unique opportunity that I don't want to miss, but with all the expenses I've incurred for this event I'll be lucky if I have enough left in the budget for gas!

 

Well, I have to leave a bit early on Sunday (around 2 o'clock), so depending on how I feel on Saturday, I might sign up for the Saturday night thing.

 

So, Joel, I see me and you in the HPDE3, and Gary in HPDE 4, and I see the following in HPDE2


I wonder if James is anyone on the boards, and if not, can we get him involved in the Nissan Sport HPDE's or not.

 

James has attended several NASA HPDE's, and I believe that he also attended the free event at Sandia a few months ago that was sponsored by the local Infiniti dealership and Nissan Sport. I'm not sure if he's on the board or not.

I am surprised that, given the interest in the September Z/G event that RobertK is coordinating, there aren't more Z/G guys coming to the NASA event.

 

Yeah, I recall seeing a Blue Z at the first Pueblo event - we didn't connect with him back then. Edit: I guess Gary does know him.

Actually, Gary is in the TT program which runs consecutively with Group 4. There are pros and cons to each group (3 and 4) depending on what your goals and motives are. We can talk about this in more detail when we're down there, but the core difference (as far as fun-factor) is that Group 4 is mixed with TT people interested in fast lap times, while Group 3 has the ability to do side-by-side rolling starts, and awkward flag tests/exercises (things that would tick-off somebody in the middle of a competitive hot-lap).

Joel

Another Edit: Also, Group 3 has more than ample passing zone available. I don't anticipate that I will move to Group 4 unless I get serious about competing in the Time Trials.

 

As am I. After the comments from the last Nissan Sport HPDE, I was expecting more folks to be out racing.

Oh well.

 

I agree with Joel that there are plenty of allowed passing zones in group 3 to allow for a problem-free experience…assuming that the car in front is willing to give the point-by that is required prior to making a pass. FWIW, the biggest differences that I've noticed between groups 3 and 4 are:

- The participants in group 4 seem to have less attitude about proving their speed…in other words, you don't find much of the 'I don't want to let that Z/Evo/Sti/whatever pass me, so I'm not going to point him by'. In fact, it's just the opposite, as I've found that the participants in group 4 are more likely to give an immediate point-by to anyone that pulls up behind them, even though a point-by is not required in order to make a pass in group 4. Also, you can feel free to let another car by without being subjected to merciless chest-pounding in the paddock about how so-and-so in his Neon passed the big bad Z06 or whatever. By the time people reach group 4, they've moved beyond the point of being surprised at seeing supposedly 'slower' cars lap much faster than supposedly 'faster' ones. I'm not saying that everyone in group 3 has that attitude - far from it - but there always seems to be a couple of folks like that at every track event.

- Time Trial cars are gridded at the front of the group 4/TT run group by lap time, with the group 4 cars lined up behind them in the order they get to the grid. So this (theoretically) gives the TT guys a bit more open space on track before experiencing traffic. It also puts them on track, at least for the start of a session, around other guys who are cognizant of the importance of putting in a fast lap, and are thus more likely to aware of other cars on a hot lap.

- The open passing in group 4 allows anyone to take a slow lap to cool down the car/driver/tires/etc in the middle of a session, and just let the overtaking cars go by whenever they catch up, without having to worry about starting a freight train between passing zones.

- The post-session download sessions in group 4 are much more laid back, which can have pros and cons. The downside is that there's less structured discussion (though no less exchange of ideas/comments/suggestion/etc)…the upside is that there isn't as much stress on attending and getting the window sticker that you'll need to get on track in the next session (in fact they don't seem to bother with these much in the group 4 sessions, as they assume that everyone knows what they're doing and shouldn't need proof of having attended a session to be allowed back on track next time).

- With open passing you can work a little more on some more advanced skills, such as timing and setting up a pass, or trying to influence where on track a faster car catches and passes you in a way that has the least amount of impact on both of your lap times. For example, there's a big difference at Pueblo of being passed on the entrance to 5 and on the exit of 5/entrance to 6. One is a safe, easy way to pass or be passed, and the other is just plain dangerous. Other examples are turn 8 (bad) and turn 9 (good), or turn 9 (good) and turn 10 (bad). This isn't something you have to be concerned with in NASA group 3, given the well-defined passing zones that wouldn't allow an attempt in unsafe areas, but if you find yourself on an open track day surrounded by faster cars, it can be handy to have had some experience with this.

- Group 3 gets to do some of the cool things that Joel mentioned that we don't do in group 4, like side-by-side starts once or twice during the weekend, and the random flag drills. You can learn a LOT about your fellow drivers by seeing which ones react appropriately to the flags.

- The well-defined passing zones and point-by rules in Group 3 mean that you don't ever have to worry about being dive-bombed going in to a corner like you do in group 4. I've never seen this happen, but I've heard of it a couple of times. That's a big worry when you're on track in your daily driver.

I think that most people share Joel's attitude about spending time in group 3, and it was the exact attitude that I had before I made the switch. The thing that made me decide to move to 4 was an encounter I had with a Porsche in group 3 that just refused to give me a point-by. I could have made a pass in half a dozen spots during the 3 laps that he held me up, but couldn't based on the lack of a point-by. Ordinarily I would have come through the pits to re-stage at a cleaner spot on the track, but in this scenario that wasn't a practical alternative. I decided that I wanted to be in a group that gave me the opportunity to pass freely, if that situation ever came up again. If you never find yourself in that situation, and you don't want to run TT, then there's probably no reason to run in 4.

And speaking of that, my decision to run in Time Trials this year was based solely on the fact that I was already planning on running in Group 4, so I figured that I might as well go ahead and carry a transponder to see how my times stack up. I don't have some grand vision of being regional or national champion, although I'm considering going to the NASA national championships at Mid-Ohio in the Fall, just to have a chance to drive on that track and see how some of the other time trial cars in my class, nationally, are set up.

 

So, whats the solution to something like that? Obviously, you don't break the rules and pass him, and if you can't pit in to get a different track spot, do you just stay on his butt for the entire time and hope the guy gets a clue?

And then afterwards, in the paddock, is it worth bringing it up politely (or maybe even me, putting on my intimidating USMC attitude and putting the smack down on him...)?

Dave

 

You're right - you definitely don't want to break the rules and pass him in a non-designated passing zone (or even in a designated zone without a point-by), as NASA officials watch very intently for things like this, and they can go so far as to end your day in a hurry if they don't like what they see.

9 times out of 10 you can solve this problem by simply coming down the pits and re-staging. But if you find yourself in this situation, and re-staging isn't possible, some other on-track options are:

- back off a bit to give yourself some space (this assumes that there are no cars right behind you)

- if there is somebody else right behind you, you can let them pass you, and see if the car in front will finally take notice of the new car in his mirrors and start letting people by

- you can get RIGHT UP on the guy and stay in his mirrors, although this of course assumes that you can trust his driving skills to not do something stupid that causes an accident, as any contact in that case will always be construed as being the fault of the trailing driver

- you can try to signal the corner workers to show the blue flag to the car in front

- you can flash your headlights, although this is likely to get you a lecture (though probably nothing more) from the chief instructor

- if you're really brave, have much higher horsepower than the other car, and your head is about to explode from frustration (though it should never reach this point), you COULD just go ahead and pull out in a designated passing zone and go by anyway, and THINK that you saw him point you by (although you didn't hear that from me, and it's not really a good idea)

Off track, your best option is to bring it up in the post-session download meeting, in a politically-friendly, non-finger-pointing way, where the topic will be discussed in detail by the other drivers in your group and the group leader. I've found that people are much more willing to respond positively to something like this when there's a little peer pressure involved.

You could always talk to the guy in private (i.e. outside of the meeting), but my experience has been that you're more likely to get positive results by bringing it up in front of the group. I'm not usually a big fan of peer pressure, but this is one scenario where it works wonders.

 

I don't think this one came across with the intended amount of sarcasm. If you ever find yourself seriously considering this option, it's a sure sign that it's time to pull in and end the session.

 

Don't worry, I understood what you meant.

 

Ouch! Current weather forecast for Pueblo for next weekend has a high of 91!!! Sunny, which is good, only 10% chance of rain, but thats awful warm.

 

Wow. 91 degrees will probably feel like 100+ out there. That heat is going to be brutal on tires, at a track that is already plenty hard on tires to begin with. It'll pay to take constant notice of temperature gauges and tire pressures and wear throughout the weekend.

The wife and I will try to bring plenty of water in the cooler for everyone, and we'll see about bringing along our canopy to provide some shade for the group, too (although that can be an adventure with some of the winds they get down there...I once saw a Miata that was being used a tie-down for a canopy get dragged a few feet across the paddock by a strong gust).

 

Yeah, but Miata's weigh all of about 20 pounds or so....

On a serious note, the heat will be a problem. At the Nissan Sport HPDE, my oil temp was getting up to about 260 or so. I'm sure it will get hotter with this heat. It is Mobil 1 fully synthetic (although they recently changed their formula, and aren't a class IV synthetic anymore...), and was changed about 1000 miles ago.

It will be interesting to see how this works out.

I'll be bringing sunscreen, thats for sure!

 

Dave- I'd also suggest trying some Redline water wetter in your radiator (if you haven't already). It's affordable ($7) and readily available at a lot of local parts stores. It's not a miracle cure for overheating, but every little thing helps!

 

yep, been running WW ever since I got my G

 

Well, just treated my G to an oil change, with Royal Purple, and put the race pads on, Hawk DTC-60's in the rear, and and PF-01's for the front.

Should be a fun weekend!