GhostFace

iTrader: (1)

Electrical engineers should make enough money to be able to afford a reflash and not f*ck with it anyways

350zfred5283

Yo 11,

Here's an update...

I've been working on this and I 1st wanted to get a ballpark of what other companies have, charge, etc...

FYI...I found out that Technosquare would sell their hardware/software (MIGHTY MAP Ver.3/MT-2000 and FLASH ECU REPROGRAMMING SYSTEM) that only reads the binary code (I'm sure with a little work, this code could easily be deciphered) and will reflash the ECU for just around $5000. I think they are very high on the quote...

Therefore, my quest continues...I'm working with my EE guys to develop something cheap and easy to use so that everyone can get at the ECU. It's amazing how the Subaru guys have all that software, share maps, etc...and all of it's free...when compared to the 350Z community...it's like night and day.

More to come...

Late,
Nick

vwpowa

good deal. keep us updated. If you need anything please postup. I will try to help if i can. I am sure others are willing as well.

Wired 24/7

iTrader: (2)

If you want my N/A map I'll share it with you

I don't think most people would share an F/I map because no one wants to be held accountable for motors going BOOM

350zfred5283

Wired,

I/we'll take any of your maps...just post them or PM them to me and I hold on to it...

Thanks,
Nick

Wired 24/7

iTrader: (2)

Shoot me a PM about it later, I'm not on the comptuer that has the map right now. By the way this is for emanage ultimate.

orions empire

iTrader: (1)

any news on this. I am a computer geek. I can help, all my expertise is in Assembly Code for Intel and Motorola chipsets. also I have been programming for the last 10 years.

tell me in what I can help.

OE

Ziggyrama

iTrader: (15)

Well, I think the forst step would be to figure out what chipset we're dealing with here. I tried to do some digging to figure out what instruction set we'd need to crack but this info isn't really easily available. What I did find out is that VQ30 engines did use the Hitachi H8/536 chipset. Chances are that VQ35 is probably using a newer version of a Hitachi processor. Any experience with those chips?

Once we figure out what chipset it is, then it's a question of being able to download the ROM from the chip and having access to a disassembler like IDA Pro to crack the instruction set. I do have access to IDA but my assemby is very rusty and my experience has been limited to x86 architecture. Without knowing what instruction set it is, we can't really make progress.

failsafe306

iTrader: (38)

Keep trying, my fellow nerds!

orions empire

iTrader: (1)

My experience is mostly in x86 architecture. But once you start looking at the disassembled code from the saved flash, we can start to figure out the instructions set and the cmd's for the mappings.

I am in all the way. Willing to try. Just wondering the J-tag pads sequence for the soldering in the board of the ecu.

BTW, how IDa works, I have work with ASM32, any good expierience with IDA?

Thnx

OE

Ziggyrama

iTrader: (15)

I just saw this post in the thread and I want to comment.

I've tuned cars before by myself and found that I could do significantly better than a tuner shop that I bought a map from. More power, better drivability, and superior compensations for environmental changes. Heck, my own stage2 map for a WRX (when I tuned Subarus) made extra 20whp and 30 ft.lbs. of torque than what Cobb could come up with. And people pay almost $700 for Accessport now. My map was free. I posted it online and provided the notes explaining what I did and why. Am I really that smart? No. I just tried harder I've seen maps that people purchased from shops that I was very disappointed with after I had a chance to analyze the changes done. I've found that generally people put a lot of faith in these "professional" tuners but the quality is not always there. Don't get me wrong, there are places that do very good work and tune very effectively however the person that buys these reflashes is really ill-equiped to scrutinize the work other than the good ole butt dyno. Does not sound like a good environment for the consumers, doesn't it? Also, if the competition is limited, the consumers suffer because of it.

Here's something to think about. How many revs of the reflash did technosquare or any other tuner go through since the reflash was developed? My guess is, not many. Are you telling me that they haven't found new things that could be improved over the years? How many updates and upgrades does any typical software solution go through after it is initally released? I think you get my point. The answer is, they don't care because they can afford to. It's good enough and you don't have the tools to evaluate it. I don't like that picture personally. There's no checks and balances in this equation.

That's why efforts like this are key. It keeps the pro tuners in line and benefits the people that may not even consider going with that kind of solution. After open source started to gain traction in Subaru community, Cobb all over sudden got innovative again and came up with some good offerings again. It's not about affordability only. I personally believe in value. I don't mind spending money but it has to be justified.

350zfred5283

Ziggyrama,

You got that right...h8bumps just went through tuning his car...let me tell you...not very difficult if you put some effort and thought into it. Granted, we are very high paid engineers and all , but if you take your time and work carefully, you should be able to tune much better than a shop. The only concern I have is the target AFR --> where would you get that from? I think the only way to figure that out is from a dyno or from experience from other members on the forum --> that is why I'm trying to calculate HP from Cipher data...see link below:

https://my350z.com/forum/engine-and-drivetrain/263892-how-do-you-calculate-hp-from-data-logs.html

Also, take a look @ h8bumps' results...Maps included. AFR target of around 13.

h8bumps' modifications include: JWT Popcharger, Borla TD Exhaust, Motordyne 5/16" Spacer, Crawford HF Cats, Cipher 2° Timing Advance

Lastly, look at these GUI's that work with UTEC...pretty cool (not sure if they totally work or not), but, then back to the initial question, why can't we do this ourselves with software alone??

http://www.jeffsoftware.com/software.php?product=UTI
http://mpsav.com/MPSUTECLogger/MPS_U...r_Download.htm

Late,
Nick

Ziggyrama

iTrader: (15)

Nick, thanks for those links. Some interesting stuff in there. I also read the thread you posted. I am not a ME so my math is rusty. I would have to sit down and go through those equations to really make sense of that stuff. I'm a CS so computer programming is my specialty

As to your AFR question, when I start tuning, I usually know what target I should be aiming for. Generally, it is well known that AFR of ~13.0 makes max torque. On a NA car, that is a good goal to aim for. If you're FI, your engine will go boom long before you even come close to that AFR at high loads. Dyno helps but it's a fine balance between fueling and timing. In some instances, it may be beneficial to go slightly richer to gain a few degrees of timing. Going leaner, you may loose a few degrees but your fueling may be more optimal. So, what will the dyno show in these instances? I bet ya you'll be within 5whp between these small changes. When you set your fueling and see how your timing reacts, you'll know when you hit the sweet spot. You really don't need the dyno to do that. Dyno is nice at the end to tell you exactly how well you did though.

Chebosto

iTrader: (43)

I really dont want to come off as someone who wants to deter you, but there is a reason why AAM and Technosquare have been doing reflashes and are still doing reflashes since the first 03 ecu was cracked. They are the ones that know exactly what needs to be changed in the firmware and what it will result to.

From first hand accounts, Technosquarehas been constantly finding new things about each generation ECU that is released by Nissan and finding ways to tweak the factory maps. Its definately alot harder than Evos/Scoobys.. nissan ecu map structure is totally different. and worlds apart from Domestic tuning boxes for mustangs or whatever..

one thing you have to understand is that there are Base, Performance, Enthusiast, Touring, Grand Touring, Track and not to mention Revup, Non-Rev up, Auto and Stick variants. Then Nissan decided to change the physical chip sets and memory allocations in various years, so whatever you find out for your specific trim and year might not work for the same trim level, two years newer due to the changes in hardware.

The tools Techno uses to evaluate their work is a load-based dyno machine which they use on their testers -- so its not just blind guesses or butt dynos which people may think it is. Then you have to realize the increased "driveability" factors. Its not just Peak HP gains-- better throttle response, higher rev limits, scaling injectors, idle changes, timing map swtich overs. etc...

If you can make more power than a pro tuner, then good for you. Pro Shops have other considerations to think about: liability on their work, trade offs on good power gains vs engine longevity, and a bunch of other things i'm probably not thinking of.

failsafe306

iTrader: (38)

^^Well put.

KPierson

iTrader: (1)

I remember when I was first getting in to FI back in '04 I wanted a TS reflash. TS wasn't sure if they could flash my car because some 04s were different then others. Luckily, mine was a ULEV-I so they could do it, but the later 04s were ULEV-II.

What I'm getting at is that even ECUs in the same year can be completely different.

Ziggyrama

iTrader: (15)

Yup, yup, yup. You're not telling me anything I am not aware of Every model year of the WRX I tuned in the past, 02-07 had a different rev of the ROM. So, that's 6 different revs just for WRXs. STIs add another few to the mix. That means every rev has the maps in different ROM addresses

I really doubt that each trim of a Z for a given model year has a different ROM version. That would be insanely expensive to manufacture. They most likely have the same ROM which is capabable of working with different hardware options available on the car.

From what I've seen, finding the maps is actually pretty straighforward in the ROM. They are usually easy to spot since the ECU usually does a pretty obvious instruction set to access them. The hard part is figuring out how all the logic works along with the numbers in the maps. Another piece is figuring out the exact representation of the numbers and conversion formulas. For example, timing map will not store the degrees of timing in exact numbers that are human readable. There's usually a conversion formula to interpret the numbers so you or I can read them. Basic adjustments like timing or fueling are relatively easy to alter since the usage of the map is straightforward. It's all the other nasty little maps that are criptic that tend to be a pain to work with like open/closed loop transitions, knock detection ranges, compensation maps, etc. Those are a pain to figure out.

Technosquare is most likely staying busy disassembling the new model year ROMs and remapping everything for the new years. I really doubt that they keep going back to older year versions and redoing things. Every reflash company that I have seen prety much operates this way. They really don't spend the time to go back to older ROMs and redo things. I am willing to bet all the work now is happening on 07 ROMs.

I know it's a lot of work. I know it's hard. But hey, people have done this already on other cars. We have to aim high and hopefulyl with enough bright people willing to help, we can perhaps get something going. I'm sure Technosquare didn't get their reflash perfect either. The things that Cobb did wrong were just plain old out of laziness. For example, the maps weren't rescaled to higher than stock loads which were guaranteed on modified cars. The end result was like running on a half map with insufficient map ranges to cover the load values. Lame. Same went for knock detection ranges. In higher loads, the ECU would just stop listening for detonation because the "tuner" never got around to raising stock knock thresholds. That's just bad.

Maybe I am tainted after my experiences with tuners and the quality of the work. I just have a hard time buying into a product that a single place that makes it tells me is good and works awesome. I'd like to make that determination myself I guess. So it may take several years If anything, it will be lots of fun.

cturnbull802

subscribed.
about all i can do is solder and de-solder. since i am not an electronic bench tech any more i have no access to any real test equipment

nfsp g35

iTrader: (2)

Necrobump x4 years.

So, four years have passed, and the tuning solutions for the 350z are the same (if not less)

That's just pathetic. The OEM ECU tuning options for almost every other car (Mustang, GM, and for SURE subaru/mitsu) blow our options out of the water.
I mean sure, we have Osiris, sure they're tunes are good, but that's just about the only option.

Ziggyrama, I was glad to see when I checked your profile, that you're still active on the forum. So, how about resurrecting this project?
There's a little more information on G35Driver about this (a site search of OpenECU leads to most of it) and apparently somebody got a ROM dump.
If we could come up with a decent method of dumping roms, an event like Zdayz could generate TONS of base data to use.

Info on 'Driver: http://g35driver.com/forums/v36-engi...e-version.html (Check out linked threads too)

cturnbull802

it would be awesome to have what the subie guys do :/