The Ignition Timing thread
04-04-2010, 06:19 PM
#1
The Ignition Timing thread
I want this to hopefully become a sticky.
Can we share discuss how and what our timing maps look like and how much we are running to give other self tuners a place to start and safe limits to look at.
I myself am debating on how much timing to add to my setup. Currently I am running 11-12 degrees at 18psi above 5250rpm which is very conservative compared to other motors but what about on the VQ?
Can we share discuss how and what our timing maps look like and how much we are running to give other self tuners a place to start and safe limits to look at.
I myself am debating on how much timing to add to my setup. Currently I am running 11-12 degrees at 18psi above 5250rpm which is very conservative compared to other motors but what about on the VQ?
04-04-2010, 06:47 PM
#2
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I've been on other forums were there is even a database for people to upload their tunes so that others can mess with them and on this forum people rarely even talk about their tunes with detail...too bad.
I've been on other forums were there is even a database for people to upload their tunes so that others can mess with them and on this forum people rarely even talk about their tunes with detail...too bad.
04-08-2010, 05:41 AM
#7
Just PM Hal@IP, and he will send you one.
I think it will remain this way until people that don't have much money start buying these cars. These people will want to modify, but on a budget and will do most of the work themselves. This includes tuning, and at that point the information will be out there.
98% of these cars get tuned by professionals, and they will not share the secrets for obvious reasons. Not to mention that every build is different.
98% of these cars get tuned by professionals, and they will not share the secrets for obvious reasons. Not to mention that every build is different.
Last edited by Boosted Performance; 04-08-2010 at 05:45 AM.
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04-08-2010, 03:51 PM
#9
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Just PM Hal@IP, and he will send you one.
I think it will remain this way until people that don't have much money start buying these cars. These people will want to modify, but on a budget and will do most of the work themselves. This includes tuning, and at that point the information will be out there.
98% of these cars get tuned by professionals, and they will not share the secrets for obvious reasons. Not to mention that every build is different.
I think it will remain this way until people that don't have much money start buying these cars. These people will want to modify, but on a budget and will do most of the work themselves. This includes tuning, and at that point the information will be out there.
98% of these cars get tuned by professionals, and they will not share the secrets for obvious reasons. Not to mention that every build is different.
04-09-2010, 07:32 AM
#10
The best way to learn is to ask to sit in on a professional tune that you pay for. It's a great experience if you can arrange it. Once you do, you'll realize that every car is different and the only way to find out what safely maximizes performance for your car is to put your car on the dyno. I've done this and while it was a great learning experience, it also made me appreciate the effort professional tuners go to. I realized that a pro can tune a car more quickly than I ever could. I would spend just as much money (if not more) renting out a dyno instead of just paying an expert tuner a flat fee. Now if I had a dyno to play with at my leisure that I wasn't paying for by the hour and if I had time to spare, it might be a different story. I don't have any of those though. 
I've tried tuning myself on a dyno twice now. It is exhilirating and nerve wracking at the same time. You end up going really slow for fear of making a mistake. I know I was mentally exhausted at the end of each session and each time I forgot a bunch of stuff I wanted to test. Oh yes, I found a bunch of ways to lose power over the tune I already had. In the end, I think I improved some compensation maps, improved fuel economy in cruise a little, and set up some nifty boost control maps, but I never got any more power out of the car over the pro tune. I guess that is to be expected though...
My personal opinion is that sharing timing maps is a recipe for disaster with FI. It's just the wrong way to dial it in - wrong tool for the job. You really want to do it right, get the right tools, get it on a dyno, put the knock headphones on, and go at it nice and slow. It's not about pro tuners protecting secrets. It's about tuning a car the right way.
I've tried tuning myself on a dyno twice now. It is exhilirating and nerve wracking at the same time. You end up going really slow for fear of making a mistake. I know I was mentally exhausted at the end of each session and each time I forgot a bunch of stuff I wanted to test. Oh yes, I found a bunch of ways to lose power over the tune I already had. In the end, I think I improved some compensation maps, improved fuel economy in cruise a little, and set up some nifty boost control maps, but I never got any more power out of the car over the pro tune. I guess that is to be expected though...My personal opinion is that sharing timing maps is a recipe for disaster with FI. It's just the wrong way to dial it in - wrong tool for the job. You really want to do it right, get the right tools, get it on a dyno, put the knock headphones on, and go at it nice and slow. It's not about pro tuners protecting secrets. It's about tuning a car the right way.
Last edited by rcdash; 04-09-2010 at 10:29 AM.
04-09-2010, 11:29 AM
#11
^^^ Could not agree more.
I did take some time, payed for the dyno and played with the numbers. If you understand what you are doing, changes can be made. I started at 385whp on the dyno and worked my way up to over 400whp by playing with timing alone (my a/f ratios did not change so no adjustments were made)
It is very nerve wrecking for someone that does not have the experience, but well worth it. Once the car is off the dyno it's like a huge weight has been lifted from your shoulders, the ahhhhhh factor.
The great thing about tuning the car on a dyno vs street is that you can see how your changes make a difference in your over all power curve. I know I made 20 more whp and torque in my lower RPM range from start to finish. I did not have any knock monitoring, but only incresed timing by .5 deg at a time keeping a close eye on the Pyro and comparing the graph to the last run. Once I was happy with the results I shut it down.
I did take some time, payed for the dyno and played with the numbers. If you understand what you are doing, changes can be made. I started at 385whp on the dyno and worked my way up to over 400whp by playing with timing alone (my a/f ratios did not change so no adjustments were made)
It is very nerve wrecking for someone that does not have the experience, but well worth it. Once the car is off the dyno it's like a huge weight has been lifted from your shoulders, the ahhhhhh factor.
The great thing about tuning the car on a dyno vs street is that you can see how your changes make a difference in your over all power curve. I know I made 20 more whp and torque in my lower RPM range from start to finish. I did not have any knock monitoring, but only incresed timing by .5 deg at a time keeping a close eye on the Pyro and comparing the graph to the last run. Once I was happy with the results I shut it down.
Last edited by Boosted Performance; 04-09-2010 at 11:30 AM.
04-09-2010, 06:13 PM
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I just buy every gauge needed to monitor engine activity and work with them. I am by no means an expert, but I have tuned a few cars already and they have all come out great with the exception of my very first car which I blew the engine trying to tune it...funny thing is that the only engine I've blown did not have any of the gauges I rely on now.
It's a great feeling knowing you did it all yourself.
It's a great feeling knowing you did it all yourself.
04-10-2010, 07:56 AM
#14
^ You are missing the point - just hear me out. In my opinion, the process referred to in the above posts for developing a timing map is more important than any single map provided as an example or reference. Understanding the process means realizing that multiple factors come into play besides just boost. For example altitude, rpm, fuel octane, engine compression, plug types, and air, exhaust, oil and coolant temps. Once you understand how these might be affected by changes in timing or visa versa, you're ready to take the car onto the dyno and go looking for either maximum brake torque or the knock threshold, whichever comes first depending on all those other variables.
You want folks to just spit out numbers to find what you think are "safe" numbers at a given PSI? That seems to reflect a lack of appreciation for the right way to develop a timing map. Wouldn't it be more useful to know how to go about developing one for yourself the right way (for example, to realize that as the piston moves faster through the combustion cycle at faster rpms, you need to marginally advance timing to compensate?)
But perhaps you can get some useful starting points with just raw data... You may want to have folks specify their engine compression and rpm as well as boost since those would be major factors if you still think this is worthwhile. I am not at liberty to divulge raw data but I am happy to contribute all I know about the process. Let me start with this nice diagram I have often referred to myself. Once you start understanding the combustion cycle tuning other maps, like the intake and exhaust cams becomes more intuitive also:
I think this thread has the potential to be very helpful to those willing to go the distance to learn how to dial in timing but if that's not the direction you want to go and want me to stay out of your thread, I'm happy to do so - just let me know.
You want folks to just spit out numbers to find what you think are "safe" numbers at a given PSI? That seems to reflect a lack of appreciation for the right way to develop a timing map. Wouldn't it be more useful to know how to go about developing one for yourself the right way (for example, to realize that as the piston moves faster through the combustion cycle at faster rpms, you need to marginally advance timing to compensate?)
But perhaps you can get some useful starting points with just raw data... You may want to have folks specify their engine compression and rpm as well as boost since those would be major factors if you still think this is worthwhile. I am not at liberty to divulge raw data but I am happy to contribute all I know about the process. Let me start with this nice diagram I have often referred to myself. Once you start understanding the combustion cycle tuning other maps, like the intake and exhaust cams becomes more intuitive also:
I think this thread has the potential to be very helpful to those willing to go the distance to learn how to dial in timing but if that's not the direction you want to go and want me to stay out of your thread, I'm happy to do so - just let me know.
Last edited by rcdash; 04-10-2010 at 08:08 AM.
10-23-2010, 03:24 AM
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I want this to hopefully become a sticky.
Can we share discuss how and what our timing maps look like and how much we are running to give other self tuners a place to start and safe limits to look at.
I myself am debating on how much timing to add to my setup. Currently I am running 11-12 degrees at 18psi above 5250rpm which is very conservative compared to other motors but what about on the VQ?
Can we share discuss how and what our timing maps look like and how much we are running to give other self tuners a place to start and safe limits to look at.
I myself am debating on how much timing to add to my setup. Currently I am running 11-12 degrees at 18psi above 5250rpm which is very conservative compared to other motors but what about on the VQ?
What's your current timing?
I am OK at 5000rpm 12-13 at 18psi but raising up to 15 at 7000rpm.
Not problem so far.
