Z1 Performance

iTrader: (564)

speedracer - I understand what he is asking...I think he's asking more about out and out tuning experience, and not what cars have you owned before. Its got nothing to do with how much money you have spent on a car either, but rather practical hands on history tuning cars.


I agree with what Vandy said (I may not have read it correctly if GQ posted something similar) but piggyback tuning is far from ideal on these cars and I also believe will lead to more issues down the road at the boost levels people are talking about. It seems rather than maximize the operating efficiency of the setup with GReddy's 5.5 psi boost level, people already wonder how they can run 10 psi....when in actuality, 5.5 psi is not "safe" on an out of the box GReddy kit IMHO.

That being said, a motor with $2500 in forged internals and $2500 in assembly costs is not the answer people are looking for either IMHO. Forged motors are stornger yes, but not indestructable. They will give you a stornger margin for error, but they cannot and will not overcome inadequate tuning methods, or incorrect tuning practices.

Best advice I can give, is take the time to learn what you guys are putting into your cars before you put it in. There is a slogan by a relatively well known retailer here in the Tri State area that says "An educated consumer is our best customer" - these are very true words! Take the time to learn all sides of your intended power adder. Speak to people that have it, speak to people who's opinions you trust in terms of assembling it. And don't be afrad to have the box with the shiny turbos sitting there for an extra few weeks as you assemble the remaining essentials the car needs. On the tuning side, take the time to learn how tuning an FI setup is different than NA....and to research the tuning options you have. The time you spend on the homework will make the test go much easier for you

adam

Sharif@Forged

iTrader: (92)

Z1, as usually..we tend to disagree. Respectfully disagree.

But two things we CAN agree on...I hope.

1) Even at stock boost...this engine can be severely damaged if not tuned correctly

2) The stock cast internals cannot ever reliably handle the 15-20psi of boost many of us are looking to run....regardless of how expert a tune job is done. (500-600whp) 95% of the people that did the group buy with me want to run well over 500whp...and that is not possible...reliably...with stock cast internals.

3) Forged pistons are roughly 4-5 times stronger than a typical cast piston, and a forged rod are roughly twice as strong...i got this from my manufacturers...and this gives you a HUGE margin for error in tuning. And we are HUMAN's...and subject to laws of nature, bad gas, a bad day..whatever.

I guess that's what I mean when I say that forged internals are really benificial if your goals are not just power...but LONG term, SAFE, and reliable power...coupled with excellent tuning.

And if you dont believe me, I still revert back to the several examples of Vortech and TT's running 11:1 AF or lower, AND ignition timing retard, that are still blowing rings and snapping rods at stock boost. I just dont see how you could "tune" that out. Safer means less HP...and these guys were running very safe.

Sharif@Forged

iTrader: (92)

PM me for Pauter forged rods and Arias pistons. These are the best rods and pistons for the 350Z. The Group Buy price was roughly $1580 with shipping and fees. If anyone needs a set, the price would be slightly higher, since I wont be ordering 20 sets again...

Z1 Performance

iTrader: (564)

GQ - actually we agree...I jsut think that the Z, with the proper tuning, can easily take a mildly boosted setup...if the user is willing to invest to make it 100% correct. Only 2 kits satisfy that need out of the box (Power's and Ultimate Racing)

adam

Speedracer

jrotaryb is more than entitled to his opinion, however he does not have to be an *******. And no, I am not a professional tuner, but I have do have a reasonable amount of knowledge and a fair amount of personal experience with tuned cars. I'll be the first to admit when I don't know something and I ask just as many questions as I give advice. With regards to how much of a power build-up the Z motor can reliably tolerate, the jury is still out. There just aren't enough of a quantity of higher hp build-ups out there yet that have a significant number of miles on them. Still, it does appear from what is out there, there are a significant number of engine failures. Tuning is the key to everything...I couldn't agree more. I have been very quick to point this out often on the FI forum. However, if the tuning has to be so perfect, the tolerances so tight to get it all working properly, you have no margin of safety to insure longevity.

Oh and by the way....The Fast and the Furious was a kick-*** movie!!!

jrotaryb

See, to me this is just an example of a lack of experience. You don't tune a street car to run right on the edge of maximum power all the time. Your tune does NOT have to be so perfect and I'm not sure what you mean by "tolerances" since you're adjusting engine management, not assembling a custom piston/rod/bore. Any decent tuner I've ever met has shot for a set of values that has the car running well but still leaves a safety margin in tact. A conservative tune is very important for a street car in terms of seemingly unavoidable circumstances...a bad tank of gas, change in air temp etc... For a street car, it SHOULD be able to run well on a 95 degree day with the A/C on running pump gas. Then again, you can't just pick an A/F ratio and a timing table that is presumably "safe" and call it a day. A dyno is also not the end all be all of tuning, it does NOT represent how your car will drive on the street. How many of the FI people here are running a full standalone? Sure, the motor won't withstand 15-20 psi of boost on the turbo's supplied w/ their kit, but as a general rule of thumb a mild 5-7 psi should be SAFELY attainable for most motors.

jrotaryb

I just saw a post in the F/I section about "how a knock sensor works" and the poster has a GReddy TT kit in his sig. That is very very very scary.

Sharif@Forged

iTrader: (92)

That thread is months old...what is your point? Every modern car is a knock sensor as a failsafe device.

jrotaryb

My point is, if you don't know how a knock sensor works you have no business playing with a twin turbo conversion 350Z. It's an example of the inexperience I mentioned.

I'm really not trying to knock anyone, but I hate to see people throw parts and $ at their car and end up w/ a blown motor b/c they don't know what they are doing.

jreiter

iTrader: (6)

Here's a somewhat philisophical consideration regarding tuning.

I think something not being mentioned here is that a large number of people getting TT kits are *not* doing their own tuning. I'm betting that most people who buy these kits have the install and tuning done by a professional shop.

If this is the case (I'm just assuming it is), then why does it matter if the owner of the car knows exactly *how* knock sensors work, or exactly *why* lean a/f ratios can break things? Isn't it enough that they understand the generalities, and let the pros handle the details?

I'm not certainly not trying to promote ignorance! I'm personally a huge fan of understanding every last detail of things when possible, whether it's cars, computers, reef tanks, or any other hobby I'm working on. But that's not for everyone. Many people have money to spend, and they rely on professionals to take care of them. Shouldn't this be a viable solution for people who want that?

jreiter

iTrader: (6)

I think Speedracer might've had a slightly different meaning. I don't think he was saying that tuning should always be done up to maximum power. I think we can all agree that a certain level of safety and headroom is necessary for a street car. I think he might've just been suggesting that, if running even mild boost such as 5 psi *still* requires precise tuning and strict tolerances with little room for error, then it just seems too risky at all. I don't think any of us know for sure yet whether that's the case, but it's a valid consideration. However, if time tells us that the Z *can* handle mild boost and still have the necessary safety headroom, then fantastic!

Sharif@Forged

iTrader: (92)

Jrotary, you are obviosly trying to stir the pot. I, along with a handul of other people on this board have LOTS of experience installing, running, and tuning the 350Z TT....multiple 350ZTT's. I dont need a lecture from you on that. I am always willing to help anyone that asks...publicly or privately.

Now, if you read my post...and didnt just skim it....you'll see that I know how a knock sensor works. I was trying to understand how much timing the stock knock sensor could take out, and how quickly it does this. And like I said...that post was SEVERAL months old, and I dont even think I had the turbo installed at the time...can't really remember.

And I'll be the first to admit I am still learning.....and not perfect....that's why I am here. None of us are perfect, and the more we share the knowledge, the safer and happier all of us will be.

Z1 Performance

iTrader: (564)

Part of the issue I see in the aftermarket as a whole is that these kits are being marketed as an out of the box solution. Many often times the shops installing them and tuning them dont know any better either, so it goes in, car goes boom, bad day for all. The most important consideration as a customer IMHO is a full understanding of what is entailed to do a job like to the point where the car runs well. Does this require a full on standalone? No - does it require a mail in reflash - I would also caution against that as the only means of tuning as well. The piggybacks can be made to work reasonably well on a lower boosted setup as well, provided the user understands how it's doing what it's doing, how the ecu is interpretting it's changes, and what other factors are being affected when you tell your piggyback to run 5% richer, or take out 2 degrees of timing.

Speedracer

Yes, this is exactly what I meant. And to add to some other comments that have been made, I do agree that most people who do even higher level mods, are not themselves, professional tuners. Infact I'm willing to bet that the vast majority of people who want to tune their Z to 400hp fall into the same category as me. We have some experience and a reasonable amount of knowledge, but are definitely not pros. Stand alone management, for instance, takes a lot of work to get right, and I guarantee that if power upgrades were sold as hardware only, leaving the entire management system to the consumer to completely tune from scratch, they wouldn't sell many.

The people who have the knowledge and resources to go stand-alone in terms of management probably also have more than enough knowledge and resouces to custom fabricate an entire system, from the turbo/blower/custom cam down to custom piping, etc., but that isn't me.

"Kits" should work completely and safely out of the box with out of the box tuning. Any additional tuning should only need to be done to optimize power. They safety margin should be there out of the box, however. With the CURRENT LEVEL OF TUNING KNOWLEDGE built into commercially available "kits", I feel that the safety margin can not be provided without internal upgrades. Maybe this will be different 2 years from now, but not at present.

Z BOY

iTrader: (41)

What, is nos the ugly step-child on this site?
Looks to me like the only viable go-fast option, considering all that has been said about f/i in this thread.

jreiter

iTrader: (6)

This is something that's been nagging at my brain since I got my Z. I came from the Audi/VW car crowd prior to this. I had quite a few mods including an upgraded turbo kit which included an uprated fuel delivery system. With that turbo kit, all I ever used was the out-of-the-box tuning that came with the turbo kit. It was basically a reflash of the stock ECU. (No piggie back unit.) This is how all the turbo kits for the 1.8t engine worked. You bought a kit and it came with new programming for the stock ECU. That's it. No dyno tuning or any other tuning needed. It worked flawlessly. Virtually no one I know of ever did any custom tuning. Sure, there were a few folks that did, but that was just because they were doing something excessively custom, or just wanted to squeak a few more horses out of a kit.

Which leads me to this question: why is it that with so many of the Z mods (and apparently many Japanese car mods in general), the tuning has to be done by the consumer? Why is it that the manufacturers of these kits can't seem to make nice, conservative tuning that is safe out of the box, with no need for consumer-done custom tuning? Sure, custom tuning can often get more power, but why can't the default tuning included with the kit be safe?

Is there just something intrinsicly different between the Japanese approach and the German approach to tuning? Is it something about the cars themselves? Something else? Am I just off my rocker here?

Sharif@Forged

iTrader: (92)

Most of the German car aftermarket turbo kits seem pretty mild compared to what Greddy, PE, and APS are putting together for the 350Z. I'm not super-updated on what's out there for the VW, but I recall flipping through mags, that the kits for those cars increase HP about 20-40%. If you look at the Greddy kit, for instance, I went from 225whp to 360whp at 6psi. That is a 60% increase....I dont think the German car kits are putting out those type of increases. (correct me if I am wrong).

My guess is that the Japanese performance market is soooo competitive, that the manufacters of their parts release a product in a more aggressive fashion, than the American or German counterparts. Of course this is just speculation.....


It's unfortunate that Greddy continues to market their kit as totally safe out of the box...becuase I dont think it is on 91 octane gas. At least tell the consumer that a professional tuning job is recommended...or at least a dyno run to confirm AF.

jrotaryb

I don't disagree (though I still don't know what a tolerance is with regard to tuning. Usually this refers to engine assembly and a range of measurement that is "in spec"). Even a mild amount of positive boost such as 5 psi will require a good tune for THAT car alone as every engine will react differently even with the exact same mods on the exact same car. But, with the amount of adjustability in the piggyback market and the massive amount of adjustability with a standalone you should be more than able to set a good tune and leave a nice amount of headroom before engine damage can occur from things like air temp, fuel quality etc...

I don't like those ready made engine re-flashes even if they claim to be made for a turbo conversion. The changes made might be good for the car in theory (pulling timing, bumping duty cycle, etc...), but every single car is different and will respond differently to changes in engine management. This is not to say that the right values are in an extremely narrow range for every car, just that each car will need a different tune even if the model/mods are identical. This why you hear that some people can just throw on the GReddy TT kit complete and have zero problems and others do the same and throw a rod. What works for one car may not work for another.

Speedracer

Actually, my last car was an Audi S4 on which I did a turbo upgrade "kit". Worked perfectly out of the box. No issues whatsoever. Went from stock 8psi boost upto 21 psi boost. HP went from 250 stock to 410 on 93 octane. I did do some custom tuning myself after the fact to get to 25 psi boost and 440hp but that was not for safety reasons. The Europeans are far ahead of the Japanese, it seems, in terms of offering comprehensive upgrade packages for their cars. No piggyback computer involved either. The additional programming was all incorporated into a chip was was physically soldered to the primary ECU board. And...there were 7-8 solid companies that offered such quality ECU retunes with thier packages. Don't know what's up with the Z, at least in the U.S.

jrotaryb

Different ECU's, plain and simple. I know the 350Z ECU, like many in Japanese cars today (STi as well) are extremely complex and have a lot of learning capability that enables changes from pieces like an SAFC to be over-run and set back to default maps. These advances in ECU technology make a stock car run more efficiently but can be a pain for the aftermarket , hence all the ECU re-flashes which can work ok but you are limited to what kind of changes can be made as well as the fact that every new mod will need a new flash. Audi turbo motors are great w/ ECU chips and have been for many years. The 2.7 TT and the 1.8T can make HUGE power gains from and intake/exhaust/chip mainly because the motors are so detuned from the factory.