HRE/Kinesis issue?
Originally Posted by Jeff@Evolution
Its all the MTV crib shows raising the price of these wheels. Every celebrity are all rocking HRE or Giovanna these days. The DUB generation. People like to Race on 20's.
Nothing against bling... but if someone thinks that something is "better" because it's "more expensive" = delusional ignorant. If someone is conscious about performance, than he can't care less about price. Kosei wheels are a track favourites, they are far from expensive.
Last edited by Nano; Jun 13, 2005 at 01:48 PM.
I dont find this surprising...it can happen with any wheel, at any price point. I bet more than 9 people (assuming that number is true) blew a Bilstein shock this weekend, with potentially the same results......
as long as the fir is willing to work with the customer to resolve the issue and get to the bottom of why it happened, this is all you can honestly expect
as long as the fir is willing to work with the customer to resolve the issue and get to the bottom of why it happened, this is all you can honestly expect
as for Kinesis, their wheels are used extensively in motorsport....it very well be a bad batch. I am sure they will work to get to the bottom of it and not leave a customer out to dry (I have no vested interest as we dont sell either)
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Jump over to this link. I think you will find a more informative discussion regarding Kinesis & HRE wheels, specifically in long term track conditions.
http://www.6speedonline.com/forums/s...5&pagenumber=4
http://www.6speedonline.com/forums/s...5&pagenumber=4
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For those not willing to take the time to go to the link, here is one of the posts:
Here’s my .02 which I’m sure some won’t agree or like it but, it’s just my point of view from being around the race track more than twenty years.
If PCA is actually considering Banning HRE wheels I’d really like to see the reason. Would it be from this one incident? I think the bench mark for racing wheels is likely BBS and I can’t begin to count the number of those I’ve seen cracked and broken over the years. In fact I believe BBS is even no longer offering their racing centers in the Aluminum/Magnesium blend the used for years do to the fact they’ve had so many problems with their wheels cracking with so few hours of racing. In 87 or 88 when I was driving at 24 hours of Daytona I had a left rear Ronal completely break like the wheel in the photo, it actually came off in a right hand turn in the infield and went under the car and I bounced over it with no warning but, that got my attention. The Ronal’s were 3 piece German made and only about 6 races old. When we got back to the pits we checked all the others and found 5 more of our 16 wheels were starting to crack! We learned the hard way to check our wheels every day at the race track from that point on. Don’t think for a minute that BBS, Fikse, OZ’s or any others you can think of don’t break because they all will at some point unless we do what NASCAR does and all go to Steel wheels (wouldn’t that be swell).
The wheel in the photo is a Kinesis but, I can tell you first hand they are a very serious Company when it comes to the strength and safety of their wheels. This is one of the reasons you don’t see them producing 50 different looking centers. When they design a wheel it is first done on CAD/CAM/CAE software which has the ability to do FEA (finite element analysis) which is complete stress analysis for the particular material. Then they physically build the design and send it to a wheel testing facility that does fatigue testing which cycles the wheel and stresses it until it actually breaks. Then a complete analysis is written on the results. This is not only time consuming but rather expensive. Most all of the larger wheel manufactures do testing similar to this so, the data and the research has been done. I don’t know what happened on the wheel in the photo and it’s really a shame but if nothing else I think everyone reading this thread should learn something rather than pointing fingers. If you like going to the track hopefully you’ll check your wheels for cracking more often now. Because it does and will eventually happen to all of us if we aren’t paying attention.
I can tell you that after 911 Design in Claremont had more than 25 BBS centers crack in less than a year and a half he now for the past 5 years only recommends Kinesis wheels to his customers. He had told me that he now almost NEVER sees wheels crack anymore. They service more than 50 track cars and usually take from 8 to 15 cars to each event. From that one example I think you can say Kinesis last longer than BBS … and I’m a huge fan of BBS … just look at my picture next to my name (that’s my street car)
What I’m trying to say is don’t draw conclusions too quickly without doing the homework. I think it’s not the norm for a wheel to break that quickly and you can bet Kinesis is all over this but, these wheels are clearly not junk!
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Cary
Here’s my .02 which I’m sure some won’t agree or like it but, it’s just my point of view from being around the race track more than twenty years.
If PCA is actually considering Banning HRE wheels I’d really like to see the reason. Would it be from this one incident? I think the bench mark for racing wheels is likely BBS and I can’t begin to count the number of those I’ve seen cracked and broken over the years. In fact I believe BBS is even no longer offering their racing centers in the Aluminum/Magnesium blend the used for years do to the fact they’ve had so many problems with their wheels cracking with so few hours of racing. In 87 or 88 when I was driving at 24 hours of Daytona I had a left rear Ronal completely break like the wheel in the photo, it actually came off in a right hand turn in the infield and went under the car and I bounced over it with no warning but, that got my attention. The Ronal’s were 3 piece German made and only about 6 races old. When we got back to the pits we checked all the others and found 5 more of our 16 wheels were starting to crack! We learned the hard way to check our wheels every day at the race track from that point on. Don’t think for a minute that BBS, Fikse, OZ’s or any others you can think of don’t break because they all will at some point unless we do what NASCAR does and all go to Steel wheels (wouldn’t that be swell).
The wheel in the photo is a Kinesis but, I can tell you first hand they are a very serious Company when it comes to the strength and safety of their wheels. This is one of the reasons you don’t see them producing 50 different looking centers. When they design a wheel it is first done on CAD/CAM/CAE software which has the ability to do FEA (finite element analysis) which is complete stress analysis for the particular material. Then they physically build the design and send it to a wheel testing facility that does fatigue testing which cycles the wheel and stresses it until it actually breaks. Then a complete analysis is written on the results. This is not only time consuming but rather expensive. Most all of the larger wheel manufactures do testing similar to this so, the data and the research has been done. I don’t know what happened on the wheel in the photo and it’s really a shame but if nothing else I think everyone reading this thread should learn something rather than pointing fingers. If you like going to the track hopefully you’ll check your wheels for cracking more often now. Because it does and will eventually happen to all of us if we aren’t paying attention.
I can tell you that after 911 Design in Claremont had more than 25 BBS centers crack in less than a year and a half he now for the past 5 years only recommends Kinesis wheels to his customers. He had told me that he now almost NEVER sees wheels crack anymore. They service more than 50 track cars and usually take from 8 to 15 cars to each event. From that one example I think you can say Kinesis last longer than BBS … and I’m a huge fan of BBS … just look at my picture next to my name (that’s my street car)
What I’m trying to say is don’t draw conclusions too quickly without doing the homework. I think it’s not the norm for a wheel to break that quickly and you can bet Kinesis is all over this but, these wheels are clearly not junk!
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Here is another informative post (later in the thread) on the subject:
That was a great post. I would like to share and expert thought from our Clublexus forum.
That was a great post. I would like to share and expert thought from our Clublexus forum.
Originally Posted by SoCalSC4
ANY wheel can fail under the right conditions. OE wheels fail. Even the almighty BBS wheels fail. Obviously, we are seeing an extreme case with the Kinesis wheel in the picture. We don't know the facts of what happened with this wheel- was it involved in an impact or accident at some point in the past? How old is it? Why was a race wheel powder coated in the first place?
Hopefully, further examination will lead to a factual conclusion about this failure. Also, it should be noted that racing voids the warranty on almost all aftermarket wheels-certainly all that I know about.
On real race wheels (BBS Magnesium, for example), X-rays are performed after EACH race to inspect for cracks. Race wheels DO have a finite life cycle- they are not meant to be raced on for years and years. Typically, if a set of wheels lasts one race season, you're getting your money's worth... I suspect the wheels in question were not EVER X-rayed, and even a pre-race visual inspection would not reveal a crack due to the opaque powder coat finish.
Also in question would be finish- you would typically NOT want to powder coat or chrome a race wheel, for two reasons: 1) the heat introduced into the wheel center section can be high enough to alter the temper of the aluminum 2) an opaque coating does not allow for visual inspection. Ideally, race wheels should be shot peened & anodized- shot peening relieves stresses and anodizing is not an opaque finish. A few wheel manufacturers offer this finish as an option, but it is not a "pretty" finish, and anodizing is typically not very UV or chemical tolerant.
I believe too many people (particularly in the Viper and Porsche Owner's Clubs) ask their aftermarket wheels to do double duty. They want "pretty" wheels to drive on the street, and they ask this same set of wheels to run five seasons at the track, too. And racers in this category are notoriously cheap (I don't mean to lump ALL of them into this stereotype) - many want the wheels for free (in exchange for running a 3" sticker on the car) and expect them to last several seasons. Like tires, race wheels are expendable.
I can say with certainty that all HRE wheel styles & diameters are subjected to vigorous finite-element analysis and radial & cornering load testing that is twice what the DOT recommends. I'm not sure the "johnny come lately" three-piece wheel manufacturers all do any analysis or testing at all... they are not required to by any law, after all, and the software and testing facilities are expensive. Many of these other three-piece wheel companies do not even have an engineer on staff- their wheels are designed by graphic artists or draftsmen!
There are many elements of a wheel design that must be juxtaposed to make a strong and roadworthy wheel- spoke profile, spoke cross-section, spoke width, etc.. Get just one of these variables wrong and you have a wheel that will fail. Yes, wheels the centers are forged- but it's the total DESIGN of the wheel that will affect its' strength and longevity. It's easy to make a beautiful wheel- it is difficult to make one that's beautiful AND strong.
As far as Damon at the Tire Rack commenting about a 5-spoke wheel not being as strong as a mesh wheel "more spoke = more strength," he is absolutely wrong about this. I would take a well-designed 5-spoke over a poorly-designed mesh wheel any day. The load paths are different, but in many cases a fat 5-spoke wheel is better than a mesh wheel. The strength attributes of different styles are different and can't easily be easily compared directly. He should not have commented about things he has no concept of.
As far as the tires "spinning on the rim," several wheel manufacturers use rims from the same supplier that HRE does, so IF this really is an issue,basically ALL American made three-piece wheels will have it. Most instances of this phenomenon are cause by freshly mounted tires on rims that may have been lubricated by soap or Euro Paste. A car with tons of torque and sticky tires can also create this. Even 4-cylinder front wheel drive drag Civics can do this on slicks...
Thus far, I have not actually seen any recent published evidence of other specifc HRE or Kinesis wheel failures, and these respective racing organizations do not make any mention of any wheel ban. This is why I hate the internet- it's so easy to spread propaganda and panic.
For you street guys- no worry, your wheels are fine- HRE and Kinesis are already overkill for the street, built with HUGE strength/safety margins.. Let's let the wheel manufacturers in question respond before jumping to further conclusions.
Hopefully, further examination will lead to a factual conclusion about this failure. Also, it should be noted that racing voids the warranty on almost all aftermarket wheels-certainly all that I know about.
On real race wheels (BBS Magnesium, for example), X-rays are performed after EACH race to inspect for cracks. Race wheels DO have a finite life cycle- they are not meant to be raced on for years and years. Typically, if a set of wheels lasts one race season, you're getting your money's worth... I suspect the wheels in question were not EVER X-rayed, and even a pre-race visual inspection would not reveal a crack due to the opaque powder coat finish.
Also in question would be finish- you would typically NOT want to powder coat or chrome a race wheel, for two reasons: 1) the heat introduced into the wheel center section can be high enough to alter the temper of the aluminum 2) an opaque coating does not allow for visual inspection. Ideally, race wheels should be shot peened & anodized- shot peening relieves stresses and anodizing is not an opaque finish. A few wheel manufacturers offer this finish as an option, but it is not a "pretty" finish, and anodizing is typically not very UV or chemical tolerant.
I believe too many people (particularly in the Viper and Porsche Owner's Clubs) ask their aftermarket wheels to do double duty. They want "pretty" wheels to drive on the street, and they ask this same set of wheels to run five seasons at the track, too. And racers in this category are notoriously cheap (I don't mean to lump ALL of them into this stereotype) - many want the wheels for free (in exchange for running a 3" sticker on the car) and expect them to last several seasons. Like tires, race wheels are expendable.
I can say with certainty that all HRE wheel styles & diameters are subjected to vigorous finite-element analysis and radial & cornering load testing that is twice what the DOT recommends. I'm not sure the "johnny come lately" three-piece wheel manufacturers all do any analysis or testing at all... they are not required to by any law, after all, and the software and testing facilities are expensive. Many of these other three-piece wheel companies do not even have an engineer on staff- their wheels are designed by graphic artists or draftsmen!
There are many elements of a wheel design that must be juxtaposed to make a strong and roadworthy wheel- spoke profile, spoke cross-section, spoke width, etc.. Get just one of these variables wrong and you have a wheel that will fail. Yes, wheels the centers are forged- but it's the total DESIGN of the wheel that will affect its' strength and longevity. It's easy to make a beautiful wheel- it is difficult to make one that's beautiful AND strong.
As far as Damon at the Tire Rack commenting about a 5-spoke wheel not being as strong as a mesh wheel "more spoke = more strength," he is absolutely wrong about this. I would take a well-designed 5-spoke over a poorly-designed mesh wheel any day. The load paths are different, but in many cases a fat 5-spoke wheel is better than a mesh wheel. The strength attributes of different styles are different and can't easily be easily compared directly. He should not have commented about things he has no concept of.
As far as the tires "spinning on the rim," several wheel manufacturers use rims from the same supplier that HRE does, so IF this really is an issue,basically ALL American made three-piece wheels will have it. Most instances of this phenomenon are cause by freshly mounted tires on rims that may have been lubricated by soap or Euro Paste. A car with tons of torque and sticky tires can also create this. Even 4-cylinder front wheel drive drag Civics can do this on slicks...
Thus far, I have not actually seen any recent published evidence of other specifc HRE or Kinesis wheel failures, and these respective racing organizations do not make any mention of any wheel ban. This is why I hate the internet- it's so easy to spread propaganda and panic.
For you street guys- no worry, your wheels are fine- HRE and Kinesis are already overkill for the street, built with HUGE strength/safety margins.. Let's let the wheel manufacturers in question respond before jumping to further conclusions.
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Another post...
Highly informative and practical, educated posts 1SICKLEX and Cary Eisenlohr. Thanks for explaining the physics and insights so that we can draw better, well-informed conclusions.
I wanted to state that the title of this thread is truly misleading and unfounded without facts or supportive conclusions. Unfortunately this thread didn't start out as a sincere FYI, rather an irresponsible headline. Sadly, I'm seeing people in other threads here who most likely read the title and nothing more (maybe the first page only), now intimidated by aftermarket brands/wheel purchases, in general.
Making these unsubstantiated conclusions that HRE wheels, infact Kinesis wheels from the actual picture, are not track-worthy to the point of being "banned" could apply to most any wheel. So, does that mean if I post ONE stock 996TT wheel that has fractured completely irrespective of the event or condition/cyclical stress which produced that failure on the track, I can blatantly state that "Stock Porsche Wheels May Be Banned From All Future Track Events Around the US?" Please, lets find out more about the circumstances, more details from the owner (powder-coating re-processing, etc), along with maybe SOME? recurring evidence before making invalid conclusions that unjustifiably tarnishes a wheel manufacturer/business. Don't forget, this type of headline creates a sense of of general insecurity about specific brands just like crying wolf. I wouldn't like someone posting my fractured wheels on the Internet forums to highlight it as conclusive evidence for some Unilateral BAN or brand-inferred inferiority, especially without my permission. Just as importantly, I'm certain that the mis-labled and depicted wheel manufacturers wouldn't enjoy their business spotlighted as an unfounded icon of catastrophic quality failure either.
Highly informative and practical, educated posts 1SICKLEX and Cary Eisenlohr. Thanks for explaining the physics and insights so that we can draw better, well-informed conclusions.
I wanted to state that the title of this thread is truly misleading and unfounded without facts or supportive conclusions. Unfortunately this thread didn't start out as a sincere FYI, rather an irresponsible headline. Sadly, I'm seeing people in other threads here who most likely read the title and nothing more (maybe the first page only), now intimidated by aftermarket brands/wheel purchases, in general.
Making these unsubstantiated conclusions that HRE wheels, infact Kinesis wheels from the actual picture, are not track-worthy to the point of being "banned" could apply to most any wheel. So, does that mean if I post ONE stock 996TT wheel that has fractured completely irrespective of the event or condition/cyclical stress which produced that failure on the track, I can blatantly state that "Stock Porsche Wheels May Be Banned From All Future Track Events Around the US?" Please, lets find out more about the circumstances, more details from the owner (powder-coating re-processing, etc), along with maybe SOME? recurring evidence before making invalid conclusions that unjustifiably tarnishes a wheel manufacturer/business. Don't forget, this type of headline creates a sense of of general insecurity about specific brands just like crying wolf. I wouldn't like someone posting my fractured wheels on the Internet forums to highlight it as conclusive evidence for some Unilateral BAN or brand-inferred inferiority, especially without my permission. Just as importantly, I'm certain that the mis-labled and depicted wheel manufacturers wouldn't enjoy their business spotlighted as an unfounded icon of catastrophic quality failure either.
Thanks for the post ZLand. From what I gather, Kinesis is doing everything they can to:
1. Figure out what happened and why.
2. Make sure there are no issues moving forward.
3. Make sure their customer is handled with an appropriate level of service
IMO, that's all anyone can really ask. If you ever saw the manufacturing process for any 'hard goods' in the automotive industry...whether it's OEM or Aftermarket, you would be dumbfounded with the complexity of producing a seemingly simple part. The first time I walked into a Toyota facility, I was stunned by the complexity and scale of what was going on around me.
The reality is that there are countless things that can go wrong in any process, and that occasionally something does go wrong. I have no idea what happened in this case, and I wouldn't speculate unless I spoke directly with the source. That said, automobile manufacturers have in the past shipped vehicles to customers that were so flawed, that they literally ran the risk of exploding or catching fire every time they were driven! Did they do this on purpose...of course not. Did it still happen...yes. As perfect as we all try to be, things can and do go wrong.
That's definitely not an excuse for being lazy and accepting of these issues. The goal is continuous improvement. Look at these Kaizen Business Tenets:
1) Not a single day should pass without any kind of improvement anywhere in the company.
2) Improvement strategies must be driven by customer requirements and satisfaction.
3) Quality must always take a higher priority over profits.
4) Employees must be encouraged to recognize problems and suggest improvements to address these problems.
5) Problems must be solved by a collaborative and systematic approach through cross-functional teams.
6) Process-oriented thinking (as opposed to results-oriented thinking) must be practiced by everyone, so that every process gets continuously improved from time to time.
Nowhere in that list do you see anything stating that errors or problems cannot occur, or that the company or its employees should be crucified if something does go wrong. The goal is to improve, move forward, make the customer happy, and by doing so, make yourself and your coworkers happy as a natural result. That's a win, win, win situation. From my experience in the automotive industry over the last couple of years, most top-notch companies are where they are because they are following these practices, or some similar overarching philosophy.
I just wanted to give a little perspective from the other side of the fence. The internet is full of critics, but the full scope of the story can never really be gathered through these online conversations we have. Take what you read with a grain of salt, and realize that many of the people in the automotive business are in this business because they were once a passionate automobile enthusiast that wanted to turn 'cars' into their life's work. I believe this is even more true in the aftermarket.
1. Figure out what happened and why.
2. Make sure there are no issues moving forward.
3. Make sure their customer is handled with an appropriate level of service
IMO, that's all anyone can really ask. If you ever saw the manufacturing process for any 'hard goods' in the automotive industry...whether it's OEM or Aftermarket, you would be dumbfounded with the complexity of producing a seemingly simple part. The first time I walked into a Toyota facility, I was stunned by the complexity and scale of what was going on around me.
The reality is that there are countless things that can go wrong in any process, and that occasionally something does go wrong. I have no idea what happened in this case, and I wouldn't speculate unless I spoke directly with the source. That said, automobile manufacturers have in the past shipped vehicles to customers that were so flawed, that they literally ran the risk of exploding or catching fire every time they were driven! Did they do this on purpose...of course not. Did it still happen...yes. As perfect as we all try to be, things can and do go wrong.
That's definitely not an excuse for being lazy and accepting of these issues. The goal is continuous improvement. Look at these Kaizen Business Tenets:
1) Not a single day should pass without any kind of improvement anywhere in the company.
2) Improvement strategies must be driven by customer requirements and satisfaction.
3) Quality must always take a higher priority over profits.
4) Employees must be encouraged to recognize problems and suggest improvements to address these problems.
5) Problems must be solved by a collaborative and systematic approach through cross-functional teams.
6) Process-oriented thinking (as opposed to results-oriented thinking) must be practiced by everyone, so that every process gets continuously improved from time to time.
Nowhere in that list do you see anything stating that errors or problems cannot occur, or that the company or its employees should be crucified if something does go wrong. The goal is to improve, move forward, make the customer happy, and by doing so, make yourself and your coworkers happy as a natural result. That's a win, win, win situation. From my experience in the automotive industry over the last couple of years, most top-notch companies are where they are because they are following these practices, or some similar overarching philosophy.
I just wanted to give a little perspective from the other side of the fence. The internet is full of critics, but the full scope of the story can never really be gathered through these online conversations we have. Take what you read with a grain of salt, and realize that many of the people in the automotive business are in this business because they were once a passionate automobile enthusiast that wanted to turn 'cars' into their life's work. I believe this is even more true in the aftermarket.
There was a similar post on one of the other 350z sites. No official proclamation by any racing entity that the wheels were banned; no post with personal experience of an HRE failure......the post was based purely on a post from an Audi owner website.
Isn't the internet grand? Is this CBS News?
Isn't the internet grand? Is this CBS News?
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