evo77

The bottom line is that labeling the SSR Competition as a cast wheel would be an incorrect statement.

JETPILOT

iTrader: (51)

It's not a fine line between anything. Semi Solid FORGED. Third word says it all. SSF is a type of FORGING.

Forged: To form metal under hydraulic or mechanucal pressure.

The casting process does not use pressure.

People could argue weather the sky were blue, or azure.

Respect (for SSR FORGED wheels)
JET

Z1 Performance

iTrader: (564)

actually that is not true - some casting techniques do not use pressure, others do (there is high pressure cast and low pressure cast techniques used in wheel manufacturing, as well as the gravity cast process (which uses no pressure at all)

SSF is a process by which the metal (a different blend from purely forged or cast wheels) is heat up to a liquid state, then injected into the mold quickly, where it cools. Purely forged wheels differ as a solid piece of billet is pressurized between forging dies.

The SSF process is not technically a forging process at all - it is a special type of casting process that allows a wheel to be made that approaches the strength, material density, and lightweight of a true forged (billet) wheel, but at a cost that is in the middle of the range between pure casting and pure forging. The machinary used in the SSF process is insanely expensive, but because the raw materials are still less expensive that billet aluminum disks, if done in suitable quantities, it can be very economically feasible.

Enkei's process on some of their wheels is called M.A.T. - this is another casting technique that allows some unique features (hollow spokes for example), where the material is more evenly distributed in the mold, making for a much stronger, wheel, with less imperfections, and less refinishing needed once the mold has cooled. Enkei is a large OEM manufacturer, and produces wheels for several top firms, including Advan.

From a practical standpoint, the better casting technqiues produce wheels that are nearly as well constructed as the purely forged wheels. A lot of the difference lies in the amount of material used during the process, and the amount of material that has to be "finished" after the mold has cooled. The cheaper processes tend to leave alot of excess material and "flashing". These wheels tend to have less complex designs, thicker spokes, etc. As you increase the cost of the process the quality of the wheel improves dramatically, and the amount of finishing the wheels needs after its been pressed from the mold is reduced. On some very cheap wheels, I have actually nicked my skin from the flashing on the backside of spokes. On the more expensive casting techniques, the weight and strength of the wheel approaches that of a forged wheel, yet the cost can be significantly reduced.

Hope that helps some

Hybrid90

who cares!

JETPILOT

iTrader: (51)

This is not what is printed on the SSR website. The billet is heated to a "semi solid" state about the consisterncey of soft butter as described by SSR. It is put into a mold, and then forged into shape under pressure. It sounds like you are equating the enkei process to SSR's which is not acurate at all. Yo uare descibing low pressure casting.

It clearly states the semi solid orging process on the SSR website !!!

Respect
JET

Z1 Performance

iTrader: (564)

If you want to be technical, any time you pour a liquid metal into a mold, it is, by nature, a casting process, not a forging process. The alloy that SSR uses starts as a billet, but it is not CNC'd into it's final shape as a solid billet, nor is it pressed into it's final shape by dies. It is poured into a mold, which, as I mentioned, is a casting process. So, for marketing purposes (and rightfully so), it is called semi solid forging, but by the very process, it's a casting.

The Enkei process and the SSR process are different, but they achieve similar results -that is a lightweight wheel that can be molded (cast) into complex designs, with thinner spokes, and less flashing, less imperfections, all in a lightweight package that is more affordable than their forged counterparts.

Yes, it is largely semantics, but as I said, on a technical basis, they are not forged. As I also said, it largely does not matter - the net result is very similar to forging, without the high price tag - all comes down to the buyer preference.

Resolute

iTrader: (2)

Whoa.. I'm not tryin' to pee in your pool, man. You want to think they're forged go right ahead. More power to ya. I'm not even going to disagree. But someone asked and I volunteered some info. With a minor in metallurgy and some apprenticeship at Western Forge, I thought I could help clear things up on the difference between these and forged wheels....
Casting can still be under pressure, as typically it is when poured, or injected at a high rate, into a die. And then it cools, and all is well in the world. Except that the grain will not be very dense, and therefore the bonds not as strong with lots of empty and non-uniform edges in bewteen crystal growths. So it tends to break in jagged edges without much yield.
SSF.. same thing, only instead of being injected or poured, it is pushed like playdough into the die "at a very high rate" (per their website). The crystal structure is smashed and thereby denser than what we achieved with a casting, and for not much more processing. And then it cools and all is well in the world. Except that it still doesn't have the grain structure of a monoblock forging, so it will have less yield to it, but more than our cast wheel. It stands a better chance of bending than our less expensive cast wheel, and stronger for the weight.
Then we get a solid hunk of aluminum, heat it and pound it to oblivion, then we heat it some more, and pound it to oblivion. Rather than playdough- through sheer brute force- we pack our die with solid aluminum through various heat cycles. This rids impurities and alows the crystals to constantly bond, and then break, bond-break, and so forth, until the individual grains are rediculously small and dense compared to either of the prior methods. Then this wheel cools and all is well in the world, because the bonds between these individual crystals will allow the wheel to take great strain before breaking and will bend before cracking.
During the JGTC race at California Speedwat, The Endless 350Z used cast Enkei and the wheel broke every spoke on impact, a Supra had Volks and their wheel bent and made it back in to the pits wihtout nearly so much drama. The SSR's are in the middle. My only argument against calling them forged, is they won't- don't- have the strength of a monoblock wheel, but are good wheels for the money.
Will

35oZephyR

iTrader: (4)

On SSR Comp-H's

I've talked to a few wheelshops before and they basically have the same response as Z1 Performance and Resolute.

The wheels are not forged but go through an exceptional casting process, making them a strong and light cast wheel. They do carry a premium pricetag though.

evo77

A lot of good info here but I still disagree. It appears that since the SSF process is unique and is licensed to only SSR for wheel production there is much debate on what method it truely encompasses.

As I stated previously, SSR literature says they are forged. Tire Racks site says they are forged. I'm sorry but you don't include the word "Forging" in your process if its not, regardless of so called "marketing hype". The process clearly outlines a mold forging process. Enkei's MAT process uses techniques that offer benefits similar to forged wheels but do NOT include the the forged word in their terminolgy.

It would be interesting to include a Tire Rack rep to this conversation to clear up this matter.

JETPILOT

iTrader: (51)

It seems to me you never bothered to read the literature on the SSF process on the SSR site.

LIQUID METAL IS NOT POURED INTO A MOLD IN THE SSF PROCESS.

Respect
JET

Zivman

iTrader: (19)

Let it go. At this point, I think everyone is clear about what SSF means in terms of how the wheel is made. I think everyone agrees that SSR puts out a quality wheel.

35oZephyR

iTrader: (4)

+1

If they use it in the JGTC, and they're track proven for us grassroots folks...that's all that matters.

I can give a fug what psuedo-technical terms companies use to market their shiet.

evo77

Nobody ever questioned the quality of SSR wheels. That was never even brought up. Hell we all know how superb and popular SSR wheels are. The debate began when Z1 stated that the Compeition was cast and not forged.

Just healthy conversing...nothing wrong with that.

35oZephyR

iTrader: (4)

Oh and I don't mean to sound stand-of-ish or to provoke anyone.
(I forgot to add the smilies at the end.)

Buy yeah evo77, you're right. You guys can have your debate, I think some of us will state our opinions to dampen a possible pissing match.

ssk0771

iTrader: (5)

Please read. It should clear everything up.

http://www.tirerack.com/wheels/tech/....jsp?techid=90


In forged wheels, computer numerically controlled
(CNC) mills add the cosmetics and the bolt circle to exacting tolerances.
The ultimate in one-piece wheels. Forging is the process of forcing a solid billet of aluminum between the forging dies under an extreme amount of pressure. This creates a finished product that is very dense, very strong and therefore can be very light. The costs of tooling, development, equipment, etc., make this type of wheel very exclusive and usually demand a high price in the aftermarket. Semi-solid forging (SSF) is a process that heats a billet of special alloy to an almost liquid state and then the aluminum is forced into a mold at a very high rate. The finished product offers mechanical properties very similar to a forged wheel without the high production and tooling costs of a forged wheel. When low weight and performance are on your priority list, the SSF technology offers an excellent value. Currently only SSR (Speed Star Racing) from Japan is licensed to use this process for the production of wheels. Read more about semi-solid forging technology.
Multi-Piece Wheels

ssk0771

iTrader: (5)

Comp-H & C-RS are same wheels.

http://www.tirerack.com/wheels/ssr/ssr_track.jsp

JETPILOT

iTrader: (51)

Good find !!!

Respect
JET

rawdeelux

This is the funniest post. I love how it turned into a pissing match. You guys need to relax. Stop taking it too seriously.

Z1 Performance

iTrader: (564)

JET - I've read it many many times over the years, and am familiar with the process. The process is, in it's most basic form, quite simple: A special alloy is formed, it is mixed via a unique process. This process aligns the molecules in a unique way, allowing the alloy to take on a stregnth and consistency not normall found in a cast wheel. From there it is heated, and put into the mold in this liquid form- this is, in and of itself, and by its own definition, a casting process. Whether it's poured, gravity fed, injected, or brought cup by cup by the plant workers, it is still casting. If you feel the need to argue to prove something to yourself, that's fine. I would rather the facts be posted so that people can make a final determination for themselves, that's all. A statement was made, I corrected, and showed why it was incorrect, in a very factual and non combative method - and you chose to argue. Oh well. I stand 100% behind what I said, and if you care to ask someone at SSR for their explanation, or ask the people Tire Rack for their explanation, it will be the same. The site you (and I) are quoting is not an SSR (manufacturer) site at all - it is a Tire Rack site (Tire Rack being the firm to own distribution rights to certain SSR wheels in the US). Another instance where even when you post the facts, you are still chastized for being wrong......ah well, welcome to the internet age.

More interesting reading:

A metals-forming process developed 25 years ago by scientists at Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT) in Cambridge is now giving automobile-component manufacturers a new way to produce highly durable, lightweight precision parts.
Although developed in 1971, the semisolid-forming process was not used widely until 1996, when the auto industry began to demand long-lived, reliable, lightweight parts that cannot be made by traditional die casting. Up until then, the process was used primarily to make aluminum components for high-stress or leak-tight systems such as suspensions and air conditioners.

Formally called rheocasting or flow casting, the semisolid-forming process was developed during the doctoral-thesis work of David Spencer, who was researching the effects of fluid flow during the solidification of metals. Spencer found that agitating molten metal during solidification made it smooth and creamy when it was partly solid--something like ice cream. Researchers immediately saw that this flowable semisolid material could be the basis of a completely new metal-forming process, one that would avoid the high cost of forging and machining but produce parts that would be stronger and more reliable than those made by conventional casting processes.

Basically, small volumes of aluminum are heated until they are partly liquid. Then they are placed in a mold and pressed to shape. Historically, metal shaping has been accomplished when the metal is fully liquid as in casting or fully solid as in forging.

The semisolid-forming process produces near-net-shape parts, saving time and expense. The final components feature lower-mass and higher-strength characteristics, closer tolerances, and improved surface finish. The process, which can also be used on magnesium, can provide energy savings of 35 percent.

"We've discovered a wholly new way to make shapes out of metals that has opened up new possibilities both for the manufacturers and for the users of metal parts such as the automobile industry," said Merton C. Flemings, Toyota Professor in MIT's Department of Materials Science and Engineering.

MIT has licensed the technology to Alumax Inc. in St. Louis, a pioneer in using the process. With magnetohydrodynamic casting apparatus at its Alumax Engineered Metal Processes Inc. subsidiary in Jackson, Tenn., the company is manufacturing suspension-system control arms and steering knuckles for Chrysler Corp.'s 1997 Plymouth Prowler roadster. Several other major aluminum companies such as Alusuisse in Switzerland, auto-parts manufacturers including Stampal SpA. in Italy, and various automakers are using the process.

link to the above: http://www.memagazine.org/backissues...echfocus2.html

When I post an answer to someone's question, or a correction to something someone posted, I am not doing it hear (or see) myself type. I am doing it solely for the basis of trying to spread information that I know to be true, based on my years in the industry and/or personal experience.

We sell SSR wheels, we love SSR wheels, I have owned and used SSR on my own cars in the past (even before we began selling them), and would continue to use them in the future. But to call it something it's not, is a mistake, and that's what I was correcting.

Take care

Adam

JDMFairlady21

iTrader: (9)

this should be stickied! alot of good info