MicVelo

WARNING: THIS IS VERY LONG (as usual ) - Read at your own risk or if suffering from insomnia.

-----------------------------------------------------

So, off I embarked in search of a suitable set of wheels with which to test. And with my penchant for running "premium", genuine wheels, this proved to be one of the toughest parts of this endeavor. But fun at the same time.

To Recap: my main goal in this test is to use a sticky, ultra high performance tire on a wheel that, based on its low purchase price, seemingly indicates it may or may not be able to handle such a tire without the possibility of breakage or at the least, present me with problems leading to handling issues at speed.


Yeah, yeah, I know it's dirty.... adds realism to the test.

Using these diametrically opposed aspects, I figured that I should be able to push the wheels pretty hard even at relatively low speeds. The tires, given their ability to generate seriously high lateral loading, should enable me to test whether or not there is any noticeable deflection of the wheel that might throw me off my driving line.

And of course, looking for any signs of failures due to leakage, breakage (hope not) or deformation. No, I won't be magnafluxing them along the way but hopefully will be able to tell through my hands and feet if there's any noticeable degradation of performance.

I will be driving these tires and wheels in all conditions; wet/dry, normal duty on the streets of the Silicon Valley to more extreme duty up in the hills (see disclaimer below.) And, will be actively looking for "test objects", like big pot holes to test them on.


Yes, this is the damm "sinkhole-in-its-infancy" that I hit the other day with my Volvo causing destruction of it's tire and possibly bending the wheel. So, it might be that the possibly terminal fate of the Volvo's near indestructible wheel will add data to this test, corroborating someone's mention that "the same road hazard that destroys a replica will also destroy a known 'good' wheel".

Disclaimer (please read and take heed): I do not condone unsafe behavior from myself nor do I encourage it from anyone here.

I run a set of roads that I am extremely familiar with, meaning that I intimately know the characteristics of 85% of the 38 mile out-and-back that will be used for the "mountain run" testing. "Knowledge of the course" is as or more critical on public roads than on a race track due to the presence of others.

The amount of visibility, knowing the turn radius (and amount of "ooops run-off room"), degree of camber/off-camber, etc. is paramount. The 15% I don't know (or just don't trust), are run at the modest speed limits. If I even get a sixth sense hunch that there might be something unsafe - blind corner, other cars, the possibility of pedestrians, cyclists, questionable road conditions, I shut it down. Yes, part of this I learned at driving school (laff) but mostly just common sense and common courtesy to keep others safe. It's one thing to endanger myself, a whole 'nother story to involve others.

Point is, I will not be engaging in any activities that put anyone, including myself, in any true danger. Even aiming for potholes because I certainly don't want to risk myself or my car for the sake of this. Hahahaha.

Purchasing

Even though I was looking for cheap wheels, I found it wasn't quite as simple as calling up EBay on my computer and pointing and clicking with credit card ready.

And, despite my just doing this for fun, the wheels had to meet some very specific criteria. And I advise others buying any wheels to do the same.

Structural Soundness In A Cheap Wheel - Wait, what?

As I mentioned, I'm using super sticky, almost DOT-Legal "race" tires (or DOT-R" as David mentioned) on supposedly "cheaply built wheels". But despite the fact that this is a "sacrificial type test", I still wanted to do the same type of safety due diligence anyone would/should do and that means, they still had to be "safe".

That presented me with something of an oxymoronic dilemma. How do I choose a "safe" wheel when, by sheer virtue of the terms "cheap replica" indicating something less safe than a genuine, high end wheel - at least based on what everyone says?

JWL/VIA Construction Standards and "Certification"

Of course, all manufacturers claim to build strong wheels at every price point. Some of these "lower end wheel manufacturers" offer lifetime damage warranties on their products, which I found very interesting and confidence inspiring. Well, sort of.

Many wheel manufacturers even cast the JWL logo right onto the wheel rim or spoke to illustrate that they've built these wheels to the "Japan Light Alloy Wheel standards". Many others add, in addition to the JWL logo, the "VIA" logo next to the JWL casting indicating that they've actually been randomly tested to the JWL standard by Japan's Vehicle Inspection Association (VIA).



This is a key point to consider because anyone can claim JWL build quality but to achieve VIA approval, the wheel must actually be tested to be granted a passing grade by VIA.

OK, yes, I'm positive that there are companies out there that are unscrupulous enough to claim VIA certification without actually having been tested, because honestly, who's going to check this claim on wheels sold outside of Japan where the JWL/VIA is the only place it's really applicable and enforceable? I mean, after all, they already copied someone else's design, right? What's one more "infraction" where the almighty US dollar is at stake?

Anyhow, this presented me with another minor dilemma because after deciding that I needed a set of wheels that carried JWL/VIA at least, how was I to choose a wheel that possibly had construction flaws leading to breakage?

Simple, I based it on their purchase price. I considered "Is it really possible and feasible to produce a wheel that meets these requirements and still cost only $150?"

Well, if one is to believe the casting marks on my new wheels, yes, apparently so. Anyhow, so long as they had the certification, I proceeded to try and find the lowest cost wheels that fit, along with all of the other criteria I had. See next...

Budget

After looking around at Tire Rack, Discount Tire, vendors here on my350z.com, then finally on to EBay (where more reps live than genuine "name wheels") decided that the budget for the wheels alone - including all applicable costs to get them running on the car - like shipping, tax, mounting, balancing, lugs/spacers if needed - was to be set at < $1000 for a full set of NEW wheels in my hands and ready to run on the car.

OK, so some out there are thinking, "Wait, $1,000 isn't exactly cheap... I can buy a set of XYZ FRP1s for $500." Indeed you can. But, those $500 sets didn't meet my qualifications mostly due to the fact that availability of the correct sizes just didn't exist. See "Sizes", below.

Now, there's also a misnomer that if they're replicas, they're all at the same level of "cheap". Shop around a bit and you'll find that the "top tier replica" wheels - like those from Varrstoen and Rota - aren't so cheap anymore. Example: Varrstoen ES222s (TE37 reps) are over a grand per set in Z-applicable sizes - that being just the basic cost of wheels without getting them to your house and mounting rubber on them.

Appearances

Since I'm going to be driving on these for at least a few months between breaking them in and doing full-on testing, they had to LOOK decent, at least to me.

Before this endeavor, I knew the types of wheels I liked from Nissan, Volk, Enkei, Advan, etc. Everything else was superfluous to me. But once I started looking around at all the inexpensive copy wheels, the number of styles seemed endless.

So, to preserve my sanity and not get myself stuck in an infinite loop of analysis-paralysis, I narrowed down the selection to a few style types - most of which I did not own originals of just for variety:

- Volk TE37 reps - always a winner, style wise.


- BBS LM or Work VSXX reps (basically same basket weave style) - likewise, one of my all time favorite styles.


- Enkei RPF1 copies

And yes, that's especially silly since RPF1s are the least expensive of the "good originals" for a Z, but, they're still more (~$1,400+) than I wanted to spend to mount up these tires for the sake of this endeavor.

Sizing

Yet another issue I wasn't expecting.

I'd found a number of wheels meeting all of the major criteria but soon found that I couldn't always find a wheel style that offered both 18" and 19" diameters being that I was engaging in a "Cinderella and her glass slipper" search for wheels to fit the Nismo sized tires.

And when I did find a manufacturer that did offer both diameters, they were unavailable with the right PCD (pitch circle diameter or the "bolt pattern size") despite our 5x114.3 being perhaps the most ubiquitous bolt pattern size around for Japanese made cars, e.g., Honda, Lexus, Nissan, Subaru, Mitsubishi, etc.

But the most dismaying thing was non-availability of the critical sizing number, OFFSET.

Some had insufficient offset (< +15mm) given my suspension set-up and as I've not previously done any fender work to accommodate fitting proper rolling stock, I'm certainly NOT about to do so now to accommodate a decidedly temporary setup!

Note: If offset is a foreign concept to you (most are familiar, I know), a quick primer here: https://my350z.com/forum/wheels-and-...t-novices.html (Wait, what do you mean it's bad form to plug my own article?? )

On the other end of things, I found more wheels with way too much offset and many of those were combined with insufficient wheel width, e.g. 7.5", 8.0", because said wheels also fit less aggressive fitment cars like Honda Accords and the like. This would necessitate spacers to bring them back in line with what I needed: that is, something very close to the fitment I use on all of my other wheels.

The benchmark wheel set up:

For reference: 370Z S-Tune/LMZ5 forged wheels: 19x9 +47 (less 20mm spacer for effective offset +27) Front, 19x10 +30 Rear

To accomplish this, I did have to finally compromise and yank a set of spacers out of my toolbox.

After days of searching frustration (and yes, boredom), I was just about to pull the trigger on a set of BBS-LM reps just to get on with things. But then, I took one last look around the web (yeah, EBay... ) and happened upon a set of Vordoven Forme 6 wheels that really hit my sweet spot for some reason. I remembered that someone posted here about them a while back so they were not totally unknown to me.


After going back and forth with both Vordoven and one of their resellers to verify fit, conformance with JWL/VIA and so forth, I dropped my coin on a set of them in 18x9.5 +34 Front and 19x10.5 +22 Rear.

They appear to be an "almost replica" of a Yokohama/Advan RG-II wheel. (First page of this thread shows a picture of a genuine RG-II)

Cost for the set, including shipping and subsequent mounting and balancing: $800.



Now, the rear offsets were perfect as is, no spacers required. But the fronts, well, I could have just used them as-is; they being within 4mm of stock Nissan wheel offsets and being wider, they would sit OK. But for the sake of this experiment, I wanted them to be at least as or a little more aggressive than either of the wheel sets presently used on my '03 Z.

So, out came a set of 15mm wheel spacers that I used for a previous set of 19x10s to bring them down to a nice fitting +19 and swapped out the +20s I had on for the LMZ5 wheels.

Subjective Opinion

Do I like them on the car? Welllllll, they're "OK" in my eyes. But just based on appearance, they're the least favorite of the four sets I now own, the Volk SFWs, the S-Tunes, these Vordovens, and a set of these Z34Ns:


Yes, both of my no-longer-owned cars. Sniff sniff. (But maybe one day, my daughter will give the white one back to me.... hahahaha.)

I should note that fitment is good but I think the dark color of the wheels make them get a little "lost" on my car. But no matter, purpose here is to test how well they work - or don't work as we'll find out.


To recap: A Quick Note on Fitment

18x9.5 +19 effective wheel offset (+34mm actual offset less 15mm spacer = +19mm effective) with 245/40-18 Yokohama AD08 Front

19x10.5 +22 with 265/35-19 Yokohama AD08 Rear

Car is static lowered 22mm.

There is NO fender nor suspension/brake interference at full lock or over any bumps with this set up.

-------------------------------------------------


NEXT: Initial Observations - Early Trouble in Paradise?

MicVelo

I should note that I'm totally chuckling over the responses to my insanity.

I do have pre-conceived notions on how this will go and it should be interesting to compare these pre-conceptions with the actual "results".

It should also be stated that I am not actually trying to break them; as yes, that would be very expensive to me, my car, my ego. Laff.... Don't worry, I'm not going to do anything, uhh, particularly stupid.

Just enough to say, "Well, they're OK for light use to go to the market." Or.... "Are you f'n kidding me, don't ever buy these pieces of sh.....!"

HRMoneyPit

Plan on tracking on them?

MicVelo

No current plans to do so. Will see post-summer after I get back from abroad. Traveling to attend two Formula 1 races so I can check those off my bucket list.

Considering AX though. That ought to be entertaining... that is, for observers. Autocross isn't my forte and haven't raced the cones n' clock in 30+ years. "Oh, excuse me, Mister Cone...... Oh dang, another one?? Oh damm, how many seconds per cone? Wait, whatdya mean 2 minutes of penalties?"

SPM350Z

iTrader: (1)

Whoa... Not to get off topic here but WHICH 2 F1 races are you attending??

travlee

iTrader: (8)

minor thread derail.. i went to the rolex grand am series couple years back,.... was awesome

terrasmak

iTrader: (8)

A have a weird feeling that the wheels will be just fine. Plenty of heavy cast wheels are strong as hell.

HRMoneyPit

So in the end of the day we are paying thousands extra for 2 lbs?

terrasmak

iTrader: (8)

Many ways to look at it , but it's typically about 7 pounds.

A strong cast can typically take a good hit and bend , but if the hit is huge they really come apart. Forged just bends

List goes on and on.

I didn't look up the pricing on these, but there are many price points available for many budgets

turboed350z

Thats not even close....

You pay an extra 1.5k for better metal used, higher quality, lighter wheels, better quality control, passed inspection, peace of mind knowing your wheels werent rush out the door.

HRMoneyPit

Like I said I track and daily a 500 set of ambit without a problem. Do I get worried? Yeah cause people like in this thread lol


But off personal experience I've never had problems on any car. Either way I'm getting RPF1s so I can sleep at night though so I still loose

armt350z

iTrader: (6)

This.

I had a pretty significant hit on a wheel last season on a rumble strip that had a hole worn in the dirt just before the strip started. It was on a forged Wedsport and I only found it after the race. the rim ended up being bent but as big as the hit was, it likely would have been the end of a cast wheel.





That's under extreme circumstances though. OP is going to be fine with how he is using them assuming there were no pre existing faults in the metal that QC didn't catch.

MicVelo

ANOTHER WARNING: Yet one more LONNNNG documentation of my wheel test (or "insanity" if you prefer) ahead. Proceed with caution.
__________________________________________________

Today I cover some initial observations of these "cheap wheels".



Weight

There's a lot of talk about the weight of wheels and it's for good reason. Weight is the enemy when it comes to performance. Wheels and tires are unsprung weight which negatively influence the suspension's ability to do it's job. Less unsprung weight (weight not directly supported by the suspension), means that the suspension has to labor far less to do its job and can do so more efficiently, closer to the way it was designed.

Now, when I chose these Vordoven wheels, I wasn't exactly expecting lightness, particularly since this is a cast wheel. (And probably not even low pressure cast, more like basic gravity cast - but I don't know for sure.)


Not a terrible LOOKING wheel, IMO.

It turns out I was pleasantly surprised to find that the wheels were actually respectably "un-heavy". I won't say they're light but at 20.5lbs for the front 18s and a modest 22.0lbs for the rear 19s, that's not too bad.

For comparison:

Nissan Track 1s come in at around 18lbs per wheel


19" 370Z LMZ5 S-Tunes are about 20lbs and change


Touring 1 wheels are a fair bit over 24lbs


And much to my surprise, the much vaunted forged Rays Grand Touring and Nismo V3 wheels are respectable at 20.5lbs for the front 18x9s but the rear 19x10s are a whopping 29 lbs!


So, all in all, at 21lb average per wheel, I'm OK with the weight of the test wheels. (But I'll point out some interesting weight observations in the next installment covering first road tests.)
__________________________________________________

Installation Observations

Mounting Pad - The first thing I noticed about the wheels were that the mounting pads (the inside hub face) didn't seem nearly as robust as any of my other wheels. This came to my attention when I put them on for the first time.



The "dirty part" on the brake disc/hub area indicates where the LMZ5s sat. There's a good 9-10mm less diameter on the Vordoven hub mounting face.



Also, when you compare the above picture with the one below, of my LMZ5 wheels, the face just didn't look right to me. It appears that there's a lack of structural support between the bolt holes.



I might be splitting hairs here and these factors may actually be inconsequential but it was noticeable on visual examination. I have not compared this to any of my other "known quality" wheels. In any event, this is definitely an area that I'll be paying close attention to on regular wheels-off examinations.

Wheel Balance

This was brought up earlier in this thread by Dat (turboed350z). He noticed the number of weights on the wheel. And so did I. When I got the wheels home from the shop, I looked at the array of tape weights in semi-horrified amazement!



Not only the fact that there were 14 - 28 gram (1/4oz) weights (as shown above) but there were also another two 28g weights on the opposite side of the wheel - something I rarely see.

And to top it off, all FOUR wheels required an inordinate number of such weights - although this one pictured was the most extreme of the four.

Summoning up my immense math skills, that there is 4 OUNCES - a quarter of a POUND - of wheel weights! I don't think I've ever owned a wheel in my life that required THAT MUCH balance weight.

In contrast, all of my other wheels required - at most per wheel - only two (and up to four) 1/4 oz weights.

Sure, a portion of this could be attributed to the tires. But I doubt that the tires could throw weight off that much. Tire construction/manufacture, while not perfect, usually isn't this far off. And this is especially true of a big name/big company produced Extreme Performance tire.

But, I'll roll with it, pun only partly intended, and see if performance seems off due to any imbalance issues.

__________________________________________________

Driver Error (Wait, what?! Did I just say that?)

OK, yeah, I said it.

The concave design of these wheels are particularly troubling to me because of the reduction in wheel-to-stationary objects clearance.

Read: "Curbs and other wheel-unfriendly objects." Oh lawdy.

Yes, I'll admit it..... the day I mounted these, I backed my car into the garage and due to the lower offset than I normally run and the convex (or "concave" depending on which angle you're viewing them...Laff!) design of the wheel face (spokes), I scuffed the face of a spoke against my garage support post.



I backed the car in as normal using my usual reference points (the post in my side mirror) and maintained my usual few inches of body clearance from the post... but the wheels still made contact with the post's metal u-brace protruding bolt ends. Doy.

Then, to make matters more personally insulting, later that day, I parked the car out in front of my house for the first time and even though I was totally conscious of the wheel clearance issue whilst parking, I STILL made curb contact.

Oy..... RUFKM?! Man, lousy driver!! (Imagine your favorite ethnic joke here but if yer gonna say it, do it in PM, hahahahaha... I'm OK with it.)

Ah well, is what it is I suppose. Touched up the wheel with some graphite wheel paint and it's barely noticeable now. But yeah, felt pretty lame.

But I do mention this as a warning about choosing such a wheel and size because it's real world danger.

Yeah yeah, I can hear the wags already..... "Hey Mic, maybe you should go back to driving school!" OK, good suggestion guys, but I don't think that "parking properly" is something taught in the advanced driving techniques curriculum. Obviously it wasn't in my classes.... sigh. Hahahahahahahahaha!

Note: Anyone see that I didn't post pics of my "handiwork"? Hey, it's bad enough to admit to this but to leave photographic proof?? Uhhhh, don't think so.

That's it for today! And you read the whole thing??

Wow.

__________________________________________________

NEXT: Finally On The Road

turboed350z

Quater poubder belongs on mcdonald menu not on wheels....


Anyways, ive notice that for some reason, could be the casting process, but even with "name brand" wheels, gravity cast tends to require more weight to balance. Could be that due to the wheel being heavier, the weight effect is less hence why we need more.

Like said, when i went from my gravity cast wheels to my pressure cast by rays, i lost nearly 2oz of wheel weight per corner. On 2 of my wheels i didnt even need weights. And these were woth the SAME tires.

On my volks, i need an average of 1/2 oz weight per wheel. But on the gramlights (cast wheels) i need around a full oz of weight. Again, could be quality, could be weight of the wheel, or could be the casting process. Either way, i do notice a difference on the 6 sets of wheels ive ran on the Z.

On the subject of the mounting holes/hub. Seems like it smaller on purpose to shave off weights. That what ive notice with "fly by" "knock offs" wheels. The shave weights by cutting the hub/ hollowing out the area around the hub. To me, its dangerous. Since they do ZERO research on whether they should shave weights in those area and the negativr outcome it can possess.

Companies such as rays, works, ssr, enkei, konig actually do research as to where they can shave weight. I remember one of these company also went as far as hollowing out the spokes. While on paper it sould damgerous, they actually developed a way to hollow out the spokes WHILE making the spoke stronger. If one of these ebay company were to try that practice, i would have no doubt that they would only make it weaker.

The most important reason as to why i support these "name brand" companies is the amount of R&D they put into making the wheels light and at the same time STRONGER than previous models.

The new CE28SL (double espresso) shave 400gram off the weight and STILL as strong as the original ce28. The RT version is actually 6% more rigid, but STILL weights the same. Thats progress and thats the reason i support quality wheels.

Anyone can take a cheap cast wheels and start randomly shave off weights. But to do so while improving the strength of the wheels takes patience, alot of research, tons of testings, resources, things that ebay company arent willing to spend on.

MicVelo

Hence my curiosity and desire to test. (And testing I've been doing. )

If they can take the light punishment I give my wheels in the hills - which is nowhere near the punishment track or AX subjects them to; but certainly more than the average driver - I won't have any problems making comments on posts on any of the boards I read regarding replicas.

To know them personally is to speak intelligently about any subject matter.

Would I run these day-to-day or if/when I put the car on a track? Ehhhhh, prolly not due to my own pre-disposition and understanding of the science of wheel construction. But looking to experiment.

turboed350z

I get what you mean, but for me, its always a "proceed with caution" thing. Oem are better, no doubt about that. And if you ABSOLUTELY have to HAVE after market wheels/RimZ, ssr, works, enkei, konig, rays all offer flow form wheels for roughly 1kish. Same price as rotas and varrstoen, but better quality.

As ive stated before, there really isnt a need for knock offs other than the same reason fake prada, gucci, and rolex exists, to ball on a budget.

HRMoneyPit

They could have moved the tire to off balance the wheel

MicVelo

All true, T'bo but c'mon, you gonna take away an old retahred guy's fun?

But yeah, I don't drive a Z to be a baller. To me, that's just stupid.... If I wanna flash, I'll go get my wife that Tesla she's been wanting. Heck, I'm even self conscious driving with these out-of-style graphite flushies. Hahahahahaha!

And yes, I've considered a Tesla but until they improve the distance/charge and reduce charging time, ehhhh. Amazing cars though. Starting to see more of the Tesla "SUV" things around. Interesting.

Highway Riding

iTrader: (6)

Nice writeup so far! Love the honesty.. I seem to curb all my effin wheels no matter what i do and or try. The wheel weights are disturbing..

Blurvision

iTrader: (4)

Minus blunt force hits, Its really the heat cycling from track abuse that you see most of the failures on cheap wheels. The meat breaks down over time and fails.