Stack

The way I understand it ... if policy-B (track policy) does not have a no-subrogation clause, then they are able to attempt to recoup monies from a claim from the primary insurance provider. It is my understanding that policies like the one the PCA used to use was like this. And it's my understanding that Lockton-Affinity has this wording.

Just wondering if I'm understanding it correctly

Fooshe

iTrader: (42)

Without reading the actual policy jacket, I really couldn't tell you because I have never seen one like that.

You see, it defeats the purpose of the primary policy. If the primary policy has an exclusion for something, you can't skirt the issue by just having someone else (track policy) pay for it and then just ask to be paid back. That is like doing the damage yourself and then handing your company a bill saying re-pay me. In fact, most companies have a condition in their policy that says they are not obligated to perform on any 3rd party contract you enter in to. This is simply because they are not aware of, nor can they approve or disapprove of, the terms of your other contract and/or it's exposures.

Again, I am still working on this and looking in to a policy that may be available for the general public and not just a group.

z-u-later

iTrader: (43)

Wanted to resurrect this thread since I just came across an HPDE insurance that looks like it's affordable and hassle-free. It allows you to place a value on any modifications to your Z so you can get it covered. The policy will cover the instructor, along with a 2nd driver at no additional charge. Also, it covers you for no additional cost if the HPDE event is held for multiple days (2-3 days).

http://hpdeins.locktonaffinity.com/

PS: Mods, I think we need to consider making this thread a sticky since it has very valuable information, and it'll cut down on research for most of us who track our Zs.

WXSigns

iTrader: (15)

Nice find. Looks like you pick the day your going to attend an event and then apply for coverage.

Only, problem I see is where we hold events on a spur of the moment based on weather. I wonder how they would handle that.

I didn't go through the whole process to see what the deductible was though. If it's 1-5K that would be worth it.

scotts300

iTrader: (46)

Thanks for sharing the new info. I was just corresponding with WSIB for the last 2 weeks, only to find that coverage for my $15k Z33 would be the same as for any car valued and covered for $33k. Both have a $2500 deduct and cost $1150. They don't cover transport of the vehicle until it's at the track, so I'd need to keep my everyday insurance also, which doesn't make sense at this point.

Edit: Just called my auto/home insurance carrier, Ameriprise (through Costco), and they said they would not cover the vehicle in any educational off-road situation. They would, however, cover the vehicles if they were in-tow TO an event. I can imagine it now:

"The car fell off the trailer?"
Yes
"Where were you going?"
Fishing
"With those bald tires?"
Yes, we believe in using the tire depth until the cords show.

mhoward1

Bump since I have merged several insurance threads.

Morris

iTrader: (1)

As I wrote on page the first page of this thread, last winter I had a policy in hand and was about to sign it when I read this this:

"If at the time of the loss or damage there shall be in existence any other Insurance coverng the same property, the Underwriters hereon shall pay only their proporationate share after deduction of the excess."

So, it is important to determine whether your regular insurance coverage applies. Since in I live in NC, this was important as my regular auto policy would cover the car while on track.

I am currently looking into a different policy (annual coverage available to the general public) which supposedly does not coordinate with your regular auto insurance (i.e., it would provide primary and only coverage while on track). I have not seen the policy yet, but will soon.

Fooshe

iTrader: (42)

READ IT CAREFULLY! I have yet to find one that will "disregard" your primary policy. It would defeat the concept of insurance, or at least be restrictive as to what they apportionment would be. We call that concurrent coverage so both would share coverage.

Fooshe

iTrader: (42)

This is a common one that keeps poping up, but there are some issues that should be considered.

1) They only offer coverage at their "approved" events.
2) READ THE DISCLAIMER!!! This is through a NON-ADMITTED CARRIER that is not subject to the Department of Insurance rules or standards and are not required to show financial solvancy.
3) Check the claims history of the company
4) READ THE FINE PRINT and make sure it is what you think it is.

Morris

iTrader: (1)

I will. Just like I did the last one!

Thanks....

Morris

iTrader: (1)

Aren't most groups providing this kind of coverage "NON-ADMITTED CARRIERS"? The way I understand it, being a non-admitted carrier does not mean the company can't or won't do what they say they will. But, it does mean if you have a dispute with them, you do not have any recourse through the Departement of Insurance or other state regulator.

Is this correct? If so, as your #2 and #3 state, it makes it even more important for the consumer to understand the financial capacity and claims paying history of the company.

325racer

This is Ryan Staub from the HPDE Insurance Program. Short background on me - I've been doing DEs for about 8 years and I've been SCCA club racing for the past 3 years. Currently I'm the Chief Driving Instructor for the Kansas City BMW Club. I totaled my first M3 at a track in 2005 and State Farm covered my claim. In 2006 my renewal included the policy language changed to exclude anything "on a surface used for racing;" many of my friends with different insurers in different states started to notice the same thing. I thought about dropping out of the hobby and many of my friends did as well. Because of all of this, I wanted to start an insurance program designed by enthusiasts and for enthusiasts to solve this problem.

Regarding spur of the moment events, from my experience there aren't many of them. Tracks typically book their entire season by April so there aren't many opportunities to plan a last minute event...unless the event organizer is doing a weekday event. That said, if a group that we've already approved adds an event we can get it loaded on our website in a matter of minutes.

Our deductible is 5% (of the value) or a $1,000 minimum. To give you an idea of the premium for single-event coverage, it typically comes in around $67 per $10,000 of value.

If you have questions about our policy or want to purchase coverage for an event that isn't listed, feel free to e-mail me at rstaub (at) locktonaffinity (dot) com.

325racer

As any FYI, the HPDE Insurance Program does provide primary coverage. Claims you have under our policy will not be reported to your standard auto insurer and your rates will not be effected. We do not subrogate (try to share a claim) with your standard insurer.

From my experience, the majority of people purchasing our coverage are buying our policy because their standard policy doesn't cover them on track. That said, a good number of individuals are buying our policy because they want to "shelter" their standard policy from track claims.

325racer

You are correct, I don't know of a single company providing dedicated track insurance that is writing policies on "admitted" forms. Still, "Fooshe" is giving good advice.

I can tell you that our policy is written through Mt Hawley Insurance Company, part of the RLI Group (out of Peoria, IL). A.M. Best is an organization that rates insurers on their financial stability, and both Mt Hawley and RLI are rated A+ (top rating). If you do some searching online, you should find some feedback on our claims process...every claimant has been pleased with the service. If you have questions about our policy or want to review it, e-mail me and I'll send you a copy ( rstaub (at) locktonaffinity (dot) com).

Regarding our "approved event" structure, we are not willing to provide coverage for open lapping days (unless the organizer confirms participant experience), time trials, or events that we feel lack the structure to have a reasonably low incident ratio. Stacy's events (TZC/THSCC and Asphalt Ventures) are approved and I would imagine most events you feel safe driving at we will cover. As I mentioned above, if you ever want to buy coverage for an event that isn't on our list, contact me and I'll do what I can to get it approved quickly.

Dave 90TT

iTrader: (4)

I participate in NASA HPDE's, and at many of the NASA HPDE/race weekends, the HPDE 4 groups are combined with the Time Trial groups. What does that mean/imply for your policy? Would you still cover the HPDE 4 drivers, would you cover the time trialers as part of the NASA HPDE, or would neither be covered?

WXSigns

iTrader: (15)

325racer great info!

Our spur of the moment involves about a week notice. It was posted on the 21st that a track day is coming up on the 28th of Feb, this weekend. This really only happens from Oct - March as the schedule is pretty much set from there.

PM if you want a contact name that puts on a lot of the track days in our area. He is always asked about insurance carriers for HPDE.

ke0ki2k

iTrader: (2)

they coulda just said "if youre doing anything other than parade laps youre screwed"

325racer

At this point we do not cover HPDE 4 participants. HPDE 1-3 are eligible, and I'm trying to work with NASA so we can make HPDE 4 coverage available. Here are the issues our underwriter has with HPDE 4:
- Time trial is often combined with the HPDE 4 group. We don't want to cover cars that are on the track with others trying to beat the clock.
- Nationally, NASA does not require a point-by for HPDE 4. We're fine with open passing (not just in approved zones), but we require that the organization uses some sort of pass signal (point-by or turn signal are acceptable).

Eventually we hope to provide coverage for time trial participants at a slightly higher rate.

325racer

Getting the first spur of the moment event covered can be an issue, but subsequent ones won't be a problem.

I do a short interview before we approve an event organizer...after that we just need to know the dates of events.

We do cover Proformance events which I think are close to you at Pacific Raceways, but I'll shoot you a PM so I can make sure we cover the event organizer you're speaking of.

Dave 90TT

iTrader: (4)

Interesting, thanks for the answer. Not what I wanted to hear, but maybe sometime in the future.