censorship thread.
08-26-2003, 08:34 PM
#5
post it up then, seriously, I was deleting a post, my own post, that I decided was stupid(just something about me not thinking FPP should have posted what they posted)
and apparently Im very tired, so I went down to the mod options of deleting, not edit the thread.
I realized it was I clicked it and hit back, but for once the site was fast and took the command.
and apparently Im very tired, so I went down to the mod options of deleting, not edit the thread.
I realized it was I clicked it and hit back, but for once the site was fast and took the command.
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08-26-2003, 08:42 PM
#11
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MY350Z.COM Forums (https://my350z.com/forum/index.php)
- Feedback (https://my350z.com/forum/feedback-and-suggestions-for-our-forum-84/)
-- Censorship: An Open Letter (https://my350z.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=40462)
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Posted by Richard 350z on 08-24-2003 11:39 AM:
Censorship: An Open Letter
Dear 350Z Owners:
I disagree with the decision to ban MaxHax, as the moderator “tcbz” knows, since I PMed him before the decision was made. This is a forum for adults who can decide what to think for themselves. It is not like AOL, where I put on parental controls so my 13 year old daughter won’t look at inappropriate websites.
Max did us all a great service, at tremendous personal cost. He gave us a very negative review of his ATI procharger installation, when everyone else was gushing over it (except for that whine). It is almost the only FI system available, and we need all the information we can get.
At a minimum, FFP should also be banned, so they can’t use the forum without Max having a chance to answer. I suppose I risk being banned myself. I look forward to the dialog from my fellow 350Z enthusiasts.
Richard
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Posted by scubadj on 08-24-2003 11:53 AM:
I agree it should be a open forum, but with a certain amount of limitations.
Legal, I am not sure if Max can slaughter a company's name on a board or the internet without repercussion. Also, I would imagine if there was deflimation of character by a member, the board creator or modifier may also be drug into court.
So, I do belive that negative experiences as well as positive experiences are warranted on the board. Although, Max could have just explain the nuances he was having with the kit or parts, and not playing a he said, she said war on the board.
Guess I have mixed emotions. If I were in Max's shoes, I may have wanted to do the same to get back at my installer. But I also feel the moderators have the final call in what is best for the board, themselves, and it's future.
Chris
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Posted by tbcz on 08-24-2003 12:17 PM:
The site's position has been stated in the sticky post at the top of this forum, and you will not be banned for stating your opinion.
__________________
Tim - Charter member #2
Silver Enthusiast/6MT/Kickplates/Mats
Delivered 9/13/02
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Posted by RainmanZ on 08-24-2003 12:22 PM:
My Reply
To all interested parties.Please reread tcb's post below.
https://my350z.com/forum/showthr...6473#post416473
It is a very good summation of the staff's position at MY350Z. A difficult decision to say the least. Still necessary . Much is tolerated here and relatively litte is "Censored" .
Richard, I often read remarks such as yours: "I suppose I risk being banned myself." Usually by those seeking to be inflammatory. We have never Banned someone for an alternative opinion. Especially a post such as yours today. Please feel free to express your opinions. Just be careful how you articulate it. If you are so inclined, peruse the many thousands of posts here. I am sure you will find many which are borderline in some fashion. Yet they remain unaltered from their origional form.
We strive to promote this site.Not always perfectly , but always as consistently and fairly as possible.There will always be someone unhappy when a decision, such as the one with MaxHax , is made. But the majority of members appreciate the environment which we strive to maintain here.
Robert.
__________________
RainmanZ
Moderator
Charter Member 03
Silverstone Touring 6MT
Breakin is OVER....Drivin Her HARD...
Illegitimi Non Carborundum
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Posted by toykilla on 08-24-2003 12:27 PM:
i will agree with Richard on this one... what ever happened to free speech?.. all information should be readily available to the members of this site...censorship is for communist countries.... and i have once again failed to see the legitimate reasons behind the moderators actions on this site. ...
__________________
I shall behave myself.
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Posted by jesseenglish on 08-24-2003 12:45 PM:
The purpose of this forum is to discuss cars whether positive or negative. Name calling is a waste of my time and a waste of precious bandwidth. I've got a 56k modem and only connect at 26.2 When I click on a thread that's purported to be about the installation of a procharger supercharger, I expect it to be just that. Why should people have to weed through a bunch of crap posts to get to the real cause behind a problem.
Now whether or not MaxHax should be banned is not yours or my call. The moderators have no mandate where they're required to consult you with their reasons behind decisions made. Everyone is entitled their opinions, but personally I was sick and tired of hearing about the "He said this and he called me a dick" crap. Slanderous accusations have no place here.
Max is a good guy that got stuck in a bad situation. He was pissed off and vented his frustrations on a public board that were not conducive to an intelligent discussion, which while understandable are not needed on a "car" forum.
Moderators are here for people who can't moderate themselves. If you want to know my personal opinion... No I don't think Max should've been banned, maybe a cooling off period would've been warranted for both parties involved. Quite honestly though, I don't think that would have worked because some people don't like being told to STFU and they take it as a personal attack.
__________________
Pikes Peak White Enthusiast
______________________________
ATI Procharger
Borla True Dual Exhaust
Alpine CDA-9815
Brown Bread
Diamond Plate Floor Mats
Insaneanime grounding kit
What was the best thing before sliced bread?
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Posted by 350zSpeedRacer on 08-24-2003 01:46 PM:
As it has been stated already, MaxHax received more than his fair share of warnings about the topics in question. He continually turned away from those warnings, therefore it was with great reluctance that the decision was made to ban him.
He's had a "cooling off" period previously, and it in no way helped him realize how poorly he was handling the unfortunate situations he found himself in. The accusasions made may have been true, but then again, they could have been completely off grounds. We asked both parties to refrain from discussing the situation on this board until it was 100% decided what went wrong and who might have been at fault. MaxHax did not comply.
While we all have different opinions, however, there are proper ways to express these opinions and improper ones. In all honesty, I would like to know what the final outcome of the supercharger situation is--it's in everyone's best interests to know the final truth. However, that's not what was being continuously posted.
There's no need to go into the situation any further, as it will do no good. Please feel free to tell us your thoughts, just remember to please keep it respectful and mature.
__________________
Get blown.
Daytona Blue "Fairlady" Z Track
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Posted by r34 racer on 08-24-2003 02:05 PM:
What was the whole commotion about between maxhax and his ATi installer? I seemed to have missed the thread!
__________________
A proper racer always uses his turn signals.
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Posted by jesseenglish on 08-24-2003 02:07 PM:
consider yourself lucky.
__________________
Pikes Peak White Enthusiast
______________________________
ATI Procharger
Borla True Dual Exhaust
Alpine CDA-9815
Brown Bread
Diamond Plate Floor Mats
Insaneanime grounding kit
What was the best thing before sliced bread?
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Posted by Richard 350z on 08-24-2003 02:11 PM:
To the Moderators
I have expressed my opinion about your decision to ban MaxHax, and was ready to let it go, so we can all get back to what is important here, the cars.
Except for one thing. Tbxz's post make the thinly veiled accusation that I am trying to be "imflammatory." I was not. The fact is that the First Amendment to the United States Constitution does applies only to government actions. The moderators of this board can ban whoever they want.
Richard.
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Posted by infidsg35 on 08-24-2003 02:48 PM:
ok you people are NUTZ.. Why cant a guy express himself?? If you dont want to hear it DONT READ IT!!..
I feel he was a very good source of info and just sharded his ups and downs every step of the way.. What more can you ask for!! Showed us what problems with the Zex kit and Ati he was having..
For the people who say he wouldnt stop come on WAKE up.. He stoped all the legal stuff and was asking real questions about rings and such.. He has a big problem with the Ati and his car is not running.. So what better to do then get advice from umm what 15,000 people on this forum that might of had a similar experiance with a car in the past that could help..
I see this as moderators on a powertrip and it is BS..
Thats all I will say b4 I get banned
Lets hope Max comes back with a diff name...
__________________
Infiniti G35 Coupe
Waiting on all mods..
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Posted by SlamMan on 08-24-2003 02:54 PM:
While at times I think this site is over managed I think if Max was asked repeatedly to keep a lid on the legal side of the subject he should have to face some sort of consequence. I personally never thought the things Max was saying should be censored. I did agree they should stop untill the situation was resolved. I would have like to see an extended suspension. But it sounds to me like it wasn't a snap decision.
__________________
[romey] Out! [/romey]
You like it, don't you.
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Posted by dahensta on 08-24-2003 03:10 PM:
I have been lurking this board for many months and have the utmost interest in this forum for only one purpose, forced induction options for the 350/G35 engine. Although I do not yet own a G35 coupe, the second that it becomes available with VPP pricing I'll be writing 2 checks. One to Infiniti and another to whoever makes the better supercharger.
Opinions are like A-holes, everyone's got one and they all STINK! Except your own of course. We all come from different angles here but there is one thing we can say with certainty. The issue between Max and FFP WILL GO TO COURT. That being said, one can also certainly state that the moderators of this forum will also get dragged into civil court as has been promised by MAX when he stated, "my wife cried and missed a day of work...now it is civil." It is called a SUBPOENA and it WILL get handed to you when two parties do not agree and lawyers want to hear from ALL PARTIES INVOLVED. That of course includes this forum by default, especially since FFP was not happy that this forum was being used as a means for "defamation."
I work in a profession where I get handed subpoenas more than I want. In fact in 2 days I have to go to superior court to testify to give my "expert opinion" on a case where I was not even involved with the two parties. Moderators, I support your decision for the obvious reasons above. I suspect that, were this NOT going to court, then they could be left to hash it out all they wanted here. In the final analysis, I would like to know the ultimate outcome of the court decision.
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Posted by Wicked4u2c on 08-24-2003 03:47 PM:
I thought this forum was about Engine/Drivetrain/Forced Induction?
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Posted by whosdady on 08-24-2003 04:14 PM:
Max will be missed. He added a great deal to this forum IMHO. I PM'ed him multiple times and he always aswered quickly and honestly.
I agree his posts about FFP were a little extreme at times but that was just Max. He was the trend setter. He was one of the first to order the procharger and shared his experience the way he saw it. If someone else had a similar experience I would like to know about it. I personally read most all of his threads. It kind of bothers me that others are saying they didn't like to read about FFP or that they were sick of hearing about FFP. If that is the case, don't read his posts.
I agree that there should be a cooling period for Max. But I think it should only be for a short period. Perhaps until his car is fixed? Am I the only one who would like to see the outcome of this situation?
Put yourself in his shoes. He is into that car nearly $50K and now it wont run. Wouldn't you do everything you could to get it fixed. I agree the slanderous remarks were uncalled for but they came from both sides. Banning one and not the other is not fair.
__________________
ATI+Crawford=
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Posted by wren57 on 08-24-2003 04:55 PM:
Max was a leader, he ventured into territory other people didn't dare. That is who he is. He wrote SO many reviews on everything he bought, answered all questions, helped hundreds if not thousands of people. So he had a bad shop experience, and he posted about it. He was trying to warn people to not go to that shop, and obviously the shop isn't going to admit to using a coke bottle in the installation as word of that would spread and put them out of business, but why would Max lie? He helped people, was brutally honest, and will be missed. Please from now on Mods look at all of the POSITIVE things people contribute to the board instead of focusing on the negative. Thanks.
__________________
Performance 350z 6mt
Redline with Custom Black/Red Leather
Kenwood kdc-mpv619
(4) Infinity Kappa Perfect 6.1
JL Audio 300/4
(2) Infinity Perfect 10.1d
Rockford Fosgate 700s
Fatmat
20% Tint
Circle Earthing Kit
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Posted by tbcz on 08-24-2003 05:42 PM:
I'd like to make a few points, then I'll shut up. I tried to be clear in my explanation post that this latest incident was not the only, or even the main reason why Max was banned. There have been issues in the past that have contributed to this. If you were to take these actions separately and divide them up among several members, it is likely that no one would be banned. You have to realize the cumulative effect repeated infractions are going to have. The moderators do not go out of their way to ban anyone. You usually have to try pretty damn hard over a period of time to get the attention that Max has.
Also, many have mentioned the idea of a cooling off period. This is exactly what we asked the participants to voluntarily enforce several days ago. Max could not accept that. Then, we had to more strongly demand that this subject take a rest. Again, no compliance. Still, this in and of itself is not enough to warrant a ban. But added to similar cycles of trouble in the past, at some point we have to say enough is enough.
Others have stated that there should be a complimetary ban on FFP. Malarkey. FFP has willingly complied with our request to leave it alone for now. And again, even if they hadn't, this situation alone is not enough to warrant a ban. If they had a past history of problems, conducted themselves on and off the forums improperly, and refused to comply with our request to lay off this latest subject for now, then maybe they would have been banned as well.
Others have brought up the possible legal issues involved. While I personally don't see the site or its staff being in a vulnerable position legally, it does make me wonder...is this really what the forum is for? Is this mudslinging best serving the majority of our members? Is this really what people are coming here to read? Now of course these are judgement calls, and by defination are going differ from individual to individual. All I can say is that what the staff worries about most is how to keep the forum running as the most effective and enjoyable resource possible...that's it. If we do this, more members will join in the discussion, and more members will join the site. Both of these outcomes lead to a better forum, and better info in it.
__________________
Tim - Charter member #2
Silver Enthusiast/6MT/Kickplates/Mats
Delivered 9/13/02
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Posted by whosdady on 08-24-2003 06:01 PM:
I would be interested to know more about the "cumulative effect" in whcih you speak of. For those of us who are unaware, please share the other contributory factors. I am assuming there is much more than his dealings with FFP that has placed him in this situation with the forum?
__________________
ATI+Crawford=
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Posted by toykilla on 08-24-2003 06:22 PM:
what do you expect to achieve by banning him??
__________________
I shall behave myself.
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Posted by cmuro on 08-24-2003 06:24 PM:
I don't post that much on this forum or any forum for that matter but this is just ridiculous. First off this is a public forum and free speach does apply to this forum and any site on the Internet. There should be a disclaimer with this forum and all other forums about the opinions and comments of its members and how it is NOT the opinions of the forum's owners or moderators. Second FFP nor Max are sponsors of this site but when other memebers make negative comments about a sponsor they don't get banned. There are threads about how people are going to sue Nissan for the problems with their cars or how this vendor which is a sponsor screwed them. None of these threads gets deleted nor does the member making the comments get banned. Third there have been many threads with some topics and comments that are not car related and some have had links to **** sites. Now why these are allowed and this one isn't completely confuses me. Fourth Max didn't have a problem expressing his opinion but what he did have to say was both interesting and informative. If you or someone else didn't think so then DON"T read it or move past the reply. To me it seems that either the moderators have a relationship (personal or political) with FFP or ATI, and that this forum is only allowed to have what they want discussed. I don't know any of these moderators or who owns the forum but I must say it seems to me that it is being run by children lately. Too bad this forum was unable to help Max with his car and to find out exactly what went wrong with this install. If my comments have not been politically corect or within the constraints the moderators have put on this forum then I apoligize...actually I don't because I believe in free speach. Maybe the moderators should start looking at what this forum is starting to turn into.
Just my politically incorrect comments.
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Posted by toykilla on 08-24-2003 06:25 PM:
another note.... because of the way things are run these days.. the only option max may have had to get things straightened out with the installers is slander their name.. it was apparent they didnt want to help him out ...they got their money and walked away.. that deserves some slandering IMO
__________________
I shall behave myself.
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Posted by elektrik_juggernaut on 08-24-2003 06:42 PM:
I have a couple of concerns........ I noticed that others who are "skating on thin ice" are given the opportunity to change their ways through "the strike system", formerly known as the "yellow card, red card system"......correct me if i'm wrong, but i don't recall MaxHax having any official strikes on his profile.......if that is the standard method of enforcement for the masses, then i believe that method should have been employed in his case.....i understand that MaxHax may have received several PM's about this, but i still think he might have thought twice about his posts if he had 2 strikes under his name......to go from normal standing to "banned" status is a bit extreme, not to mention unfair......especially when compared to the previous infractions that warranted bans on others.
MaxHax did a lot for this community......he was one of the first to run nitrous, one of the first with the Crawford Plenum, and one of the first to get the Procharger installed.......he gave details about these mods, good and bad details.......he gave the truth, as he saw it......I think this ultimately helped people to decide if these mods were for them........he did the research that a lot of us were too afraid to do with our own cars.
If this site becomes the kind of place where people are only allowed to say good things about products and services, then it has ceased to be a source of information, and it has instead become one big elaborate commercial
__________________
Chrome Silver Performance 6MT
Procharger from Mike @ Altered Atmosphere
Install by Dave @ Black Magic Racing
Prior to Procharger:
13.64@103.28mph
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Posted by rodH on 08-24-2003 06:54 PM:
Re: Censorship: An Open Letter
my biggest issue is why are some companies allowed to be bashed on this site and others aren't?? the inconsistancy is what doesn't look good and like something shady is going on.
quote:
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Originally posted by Richard 350z
Dear 350Z Owners:
I disagree with the decision to ban MaxHax, as the moderator “tcbz” knows, since I PMed him before the decision was made. This is a forum for adults who can decide what to think for themselves. It is not like AOL, where I put on parental controls so my 13 year old daughter won’t look at inappropriate websites.
Max did us all a great service, at tremendous personal cost. He gave us a very negative review of his ATI procharger installation, when everyone else was gushing over it (except for that whine). It is almost the only FI system available, and we need all the information we can get.
At a minimum, FFP should also be banned, so they can’t use the forum without Max having a chance to answer. I suppose I risk being banned myself. I look forward to the dialog from my fellow 350Z enthusiasts.
Richard
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__________________
2003 Z--CS touring--6spd--blk leather--splash guards.
iForged 19" Aero (without bolts/rivots) on Toyo T1-S
3m clear bra
S2000 antenna
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Posted by Mikestro on 08-24-2003 07:06 PM:
Not to stir up the hornets nest, but there are many other internet forums discussing the 350Z. That is the best way you can show your concern, by voting with your mouse. 350ZFrenzy and 350ZMotoring are two that pop into mind. I would love to see one of them rise to the level of this site. There are very bright advisors and moderators there that don't seem to be "trigger happy" with the ban button.
I got a strike for a crappy reason, so I am more than a little biased at this point..... but I guess if I've learned anything in the last 30 years is that everyone has an agenda.
__________________
2003 CS Touring
Mods:
Simpson's Sun Deflector
Map Pocket
Infiniti Basslink
Infiniti 6001s
RF 250W Amp
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Posted by Z350Maniac on 08-24-2003 07:31 PM:
I like many others do not post often as I'm still learning and absorbing the info I will need in order to assist others with questions (crawl before you can walk sort of thing). Max was one of the first members that stood out as a leader of the performance Z community that is nested within these boards. I've heard/read/seen NOTHING but GOOD from Max in the last 7 months since I have been reading/posting on these boards. His car was one I saw as remarkable with all of the work and guinea-pigging he had done to it. I respected his opinion as he had done so much and was looked to as a leader in the art of getting his Z to perform better.
I PMed TBCZ with ym concerns over Max's banning once I saw his stickied thread this morning. I explained my concerns and was looking for further insight as to this decision. I was given similar answers that were posted on this thread. However vague they were they obviously made a decision based upon sound reasons. Of which I, along with the others who are less informed, would like to know what the extenuating circumstances were that led to this decision. I agree with EJ completely in that I had noticed that Max was not on the 'warning' system. It seemed like he had triggered a 'soft spot' with the mod team or the site in general and was 'banished' on the spot because of this.
To coat the reasoning with the fact that he wouldn't have been banned because of this recent reason alone is a bit of a stretch. Had it been something else he wouldn't have been banned, it was because of this development and his installer that he got banned.
I may not agree with or like the mod's decision, but like ANY other forum, I have little say and have to accept their decision. And like everyone else is saying "if you don't like what he posted then don't read" well that can be turned around and be stated like this:
"if you don't like the mods decision then don't come to the forums."
so it's a two way street we all walk.
to make things simple:
Would I like to see Max back?
HELL YES and without a doubt.
Did he deserve to be banned?
There are alternatives. I run a message forum myself and have the 'troublesome' users that I allow to view the boards and check and make PMs. I think this would suit Max well.
Should FFP get similar treatment?
Yes and No. This is one of those mixed situations where you scold one person but let the other go. You are basing your decision upon the whole thing going to court and that is one of the reasons Max was banned. Well FFP is a part of this legal action and should in effect be banned as well as they're connected in this matter and directly affected the decision for Max to be banned (I am SURE they said something to the degree of which my350z.com would be involved in the legal matters of this issue if Max were to be allowed to continue with his remarks and thus giving the mods little choice but to abide by FFP's request. I've seen this TOO many times on TOO many boards, but in almost all instances BOTH parties are banned until the matter is resolved.)
Do I agree with the mod's decision?
Not really, but that's life and whether I like it's going to happen.
Am I trying to be inflammatory or unruly towards the mos because of this?
No. How would that help the situation besides making it worse.
I hope to see Max back and soon with a completely fixed kit and a renewed ferver for the Z and it's performance. I'd like for those who think down on Max for his 'behavior' the last 2 weeks to take a moment and think to themselves this:
Had this very thing happened to you. Had you spent over $8K on this S/C and it's install. Had you dumped 2 months of your time in this effort. Had you done ALL of this and gotten this result, HOW WOULD YOU have acted or wanted to act?
You'll find that he wasn't very far off base with what most if not ALL of us would have done given his circumstance.
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Posted by infidsg35 on 08-24-2003 08:23 PM:
BRING BACK MAX!!!!!
__________________
Infiniti G35 Coupe
Waiting on all mods..
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Posted by Dr Bonz on 08-24-2003 08:46 PM:
quote:
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First off this is a public forum and free speach does apply to this forum and any site on the Internet.
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Sorry, but you are incorrect. This is a PRIVATELY OWNED board and free speech does not apply here. You can run out on a PUBLIC street corner and yell whatever you want, and cry free speech all you want. This is not the case on a board on which you are a GUEST of the OWNER of the site.
I kind of liked Max. I really did. But if you have been around here as long as I have, you would have known of all of the OTHER threads in which Max's mouth (typing fingers) got him into trouble. I have seen every one. You guys who are saying that the mods were too quick to do what they did all seem to have pretty low post counts and may not have been here for the ENTIRE show. He had been given warning after warning and he never seemed to let up and that was just in the open threads! That is to say nothing of the numerous PM's I'm sure he got!
FFP has not said squat since both parties were warned. I'm certain that if they would have continued to spar with Max back and forth, they would have met the same fate.
I would like to have Max back at some point. His experiences are definitely valuable. It's just that there are ways to get your point across tactfully, effectively, and politely without resorting to slander (in this case libel), and name calling.
__________________
JUST ZAY-NO!
The Doctor is in.......a Brickyard Track 350Z.
NISMO Body Kit, CF Emblem Covers, Front "Z" Emblem, Brickyard Painted Engine Cover/Strut Brace, "Z" Oil Cap.
Pioneer XM Satellite Radio, Valentine One Radar Detection, The In-Z P.C. with Xenarc Screen, Windows XP Professional, GPS Navigation, DVD/MP3 Player, & TV Tuner
AEM Cold Air Intake, Z-Xtreme Grounding Kit, Borla True Dual Exhaust, & NOW....can you say "Procharger".....Sure, I knew you could!
Dr Bonz 350Z Gallery
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Posted by Richard 350z on 08-24-2003 09:06 PM:
To Dr. Bonz
Bonz:
I very much appreciate all of your posts, the procharger videos, and your sharing of your knowledge.
However, I resent the attitude of your post on this thread, which boils down to: "I have been here longer than you newbies, so your opinions don't count as much as mine." I own a 350Z too, and want all the information I can get before I shell out $6,000 for parts, installation and tuning, on something that might fry my engine.
You are a great contributor to this forum, and so was Max. You had a good experience with the procharger, and he didn't. This website is a profit making venture for someone, as it carries advertising. I don't have a problem with the profit motive, it is the American way, and brought us this very useful forum, albeit with overly zealous moderators.
You are right about one thing: The Free Speech Clause of the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution does NOT apply here. This is a private forum. The first amendment protects us from government action to squelch free speech only.
Keep up the good work on your 350Z, and please continue your informative posts and videos.
Richard
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Posted by rouxeny on 08-24-2003 09:07 PM:
There are some situations in which it is immediately apparent to the mods that somebody needs to be banned. Obvious trolling or violating one of the basic rules (racism, sexism, ****....) would be some examples.
Banning Max was NOT an on the spot decision. Yes, it would have been nice for him to have been allowed a cooling off period. He got that. However, it would have been better if he had actually USED that opportunity to cool off. The mods knew this decision would be somewhat controversial and weeks of discussion have been held prior to this action. Suffice it to say that Max had been contacted multiple times and he had decided not to listen.
As Bonz said, this is not a public forum. It is owned by one person. If that person doesn't agree with what you say, it's his prerogative to remove you. Now, this line is very wide and unless one of the above basic rules is violated, it is actually fairly difficult to get banned. Then, there are the people that get banned and magically return after somehow reforming themselves.
I, along with many people, appreciated that Max was on the cutting edge of Z modifications. I did not like how he brought his private fight onto this board and I am still convinced that his side of the story is not 100% representative of the truth.
As to the concern that complaints about site sponsors will result in punitive action, the mods have given significant thought to this. There is no "agenda" and there is no relationship with ATI or the installer that Max was having issues with. Personally, I don't know the majority of our site sponsors and I have only purchased anything from maybe one of them. If somebody has a legitimate concern about any of them, I'm more than glad to hear it. I will allow the other mods to speak for themselves but I'm pretty much sure they would have similar sentiments. The sponsors should not be and are not protected from criticism in any way. However, as with the Max discussion, I think those kinds of arguments should be handled in private and not on this forum, especially if legal action is potentially pending.
__________________
Andrew
CS Touring 6MT
Student at Dr. Bonz's Zaino Academy
"Learn from the best, outshine the rest!"
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Posted by rouxeny on 08-24-2003 09:11 PM:
Wrong. Bonz's point is that he has been on this board for longer than many people and has better perspective as to why Max was banned. There are threads which some newer members may not have been able to read which contributed to this decision.
Bonz has also seen more people get banned and probably has a better idea of what it takes for somebody to receive that. To many of the newer members, I'm sure that many of the mod's actions seem to be completely arbitrary. They are not.
__________________
Andrew
CS Touring 6MT
Student at Dr. Bonz's Zaino Academy
"Learn from the best, outshine the rest!"
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Posted by jak on 08-24-2003 09:18 PM:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Dr Bonz
Sorry, but you are incorrect. This is a PRIVATELY OWNED board and free speech does not apply here. You can run out on a PUBLIC street corner and yell whatever you want, and cry free speech all you want. This is not the case on a board on which you are a GUEST of the OWNER of the site.
I kind of liked Max. I really did. But if you have been around here as long as I have, you would have known of all of the OTHER threads in which Max's mouth (typing fingers) got him into trouble. I have seen every one. You guys who are saying that the mods were too quick to do what they did all seem to have pretty low post counts and may not have been here for the ENTIRE show. He had been given warning after warning and he never seemed to let up and that was just in the open threads! That is to say nothing of the numerous PM's I'm sure he got!
FFP has not said squat since both parties were warned. I'm certain that if they would have continued to spar with Max back and forth, they would have met the same fate.
I would like to have Max back at some point. His experiences are definitely valuable. It's just that there are ways to get your point across tactfully, effectively, and politely without resorting to slander (in this case libel), and name calling.
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I may have missed the whole show, but if there WAS a show than he should have been on the strike program like everyone else.
I found Max's threads very informative because he was willing to tell the brutal truth. I belong to this forum to get SOLID INFORMATION about my car.
If you are saying that public forums owned by others should be allowed to censor and promote hidden agendas about products and advice of their own choosing, then what's the point of an open forum? It then becomes nothing more than an infomercial.
I joined this site for information. Not a sales pitch. That is what Max and people like Max provide.
Jeff
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Posted by Wicked4u2c on 08-24-2003 09:22 PM:
Welcome to communism people...
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Posted by nigevellie on 08-24-2003 09:34 PM:
who cares? it's done. move on. it's not your decision. it's not called www.freespeechandmy350z.com. let's stick to talking about cars, ladies and gentlemen. no need to start a pissing contest or start flexing imaginary internet muscles.
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Posted by GaryK on 08-24-2003 09:35 PM:
Well, I may as well add my 2 cents. I don't really agree with the process through which Max was banned, but I also don't pretend to know all the facts. I do know that Max adds value to the community. I also know that he was often too quick to post negative information, at least in my opinion. Personally, I wouldn't handle his situation the way he did with regard to the forum. But that doesn't necessarily mean I think he is wrong in any way, he justs does things differently.
Maybe I missed something, but I thought he had dropped the whole thing other than asking questions to help get his problems solved. However, in the end this website and forum is privately owned, and if the owners and/or their representatives(mods) wish to ban someone, that is their prerogative. If you don't like it, there are other 350z boards as has already been mentioned.
__________________
GaryK
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Posted by rouxeny on 08-24-2003 09:37 PM:
Um, wicked, this is DEFINITELY not an example of communism. I've always considered internet forums more like totalitarian governments. Essentially, one person, or the people that he elects, run the forum. It's more of a social contract and more liberal than I suggest above, but it's just an analogy.
As the above post says, it's done. I hope the forum can move on and find something new Z related to talk about.
__________________
Andrew
CS Touring 6MT
Student at Dr. Bonz's Zaino Academy
"Learn from the best, outshine the rest!"
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Posted by Wicked4u2c on 08-24-2003 09:38 PM:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by nigevellie
who cares? it's done. move on. it's not your decision. it's not called www.freespeechandmy350z.com. let's stick to talking about cars, ladies and gentlemen. no need to start a pissing contest or start flexing imaginary internet muscles.
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My point exact! I have never seen so much drama in a message board in my life. Its funny how the mods even post in this thread "Look guys we Banned Max"... I know Max he actually bought parts from me and is a great guy. Their are reasons for everything but the mods/owners of this site are like promoting his dismissal like its something to be proud of. I come here to learn about cars.. Take this to the general thread MODS!!
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Posted by Dr Bonz on 08-24-2003 09:46 PM:
quote:
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Welcome to communism people
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That statement Wicked, is so ridiculous that I will not grace it with any further comment, other than this: I don't know the extent of your education in the field of economics, politics, or sociology but that statement shows that it is obviously lacking. Read up a little on the term "communism" before you try and use it please.
Rouxeny stated my next thought perfectly. I do not mean to come off as "I am more right than you because I have been here longer" at all. What I meant was, that when you ARE someplace for a long time, you tend to pick up on things that have happened at that place a lot better than those who are new. I have "seen it all" as one of the original charter members here and I think in light of that fact, I have a little better perspective, as does Tim.
quote:
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I may have missed the whole show, but if there WAS a show than he should have been on the strike program like everyone else.
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Trust me, he was on the "strike program" long before there WAS a strike program.
__________________
JUST ZAY-NO!
The Doctor is in.......a Brickyard Track 350Z.
NISMO Body Kit, CF Emblem Covers, Front "Z" Emblem, Brickyard Painted Engine Cover/Strut Brace, "Z" Oil Cap.
Pioneer XM Satellite Radio, Valentine One Radar Detection, The In-Z P.C. with Xenarc Screen, Windows XP Professional, GPS Navigation, DVD/MP3 Player, & TV Tuner
AEM Cold Air Intake, Z-Xtreme Grounding Kit, Borla True Dual Exhaust, & NOW....can you say "Procharger".....Sure, I knew you could!
Dr Bonz 350Z Gallery
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Posted by Wicked4u2c on 08-24-2003 09:47 PM:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Dr Bonz
That statement Wicked, is so ridiculous that I will not grace it with any further comment, other than this: I don't know the extent of your education in the field of economics, politics, or sociology but that statement shows that it is obviously lacking. Read up a little on the term "communism" before you try and use it please.
Rouxeny stated my next thought perfectly. I do not mean to come off as "I am more right than you because I have been here longer" at all. What I meant was, that when you ARE someplace for a long time, you tend to pick up on things that have happened at that place a lot better than those who are new. I have "seen it all" as one of the original charter members here and I think in light of that fact, I have a little better perspective, as does Tim.
Trust me, he was on the "strike program" long before there WAS a strike program.
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Posted by Wicked4u2c on 08-24-2003 09:47 PM:
HAHA LOL Sorry dude, I was only Joking around because my friend and I always ******** about communism and he told me to post that... Loosen up a bit bonzy dont take everything so serious...
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Dr Bonz
That statement Wicked, is so ridiculous that I will not grace it with any further comment, other than this: I don't know the extent of your education in the field of economics, politics, or sociology but that statement shows that it is obviously lacking. Read up a little on the term "communism" before you try and use it please.
Rouxeny stated my next thought perfectly. I do not mean to come off as "I am more right than you because I have been here longer" at all. What I meant was, that when you ARE someplace for a long time, you tend to pick up on things that have happened at that place a lot better than those who are new. I have "seen it all" as one of the original charter members here and I think in light of that fact, I have a little better perspective, as does Tim.
Trust me, he was on the "strike program" long before there WAS a strike program.
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Posted by Rama on 08-24-2003 09:48 PM:
I see an agenda, not to get the website in the middle of a legal dispute. Everyone know MaxHax was the ATI guinea pig and was very iformative and brutally honest we all appreciated that. However it got out of hand. and it was asked to be not discussed until resolution was reached that didn't happen boom banned. If he really wanted to discuss on the net then he should get his own site since this one wanted the discussion stopped until resolution was reach then tell the story. If you did notice the thread that he started with the ATI stopped being informative and started becoming like a chat room with high school kids with both parties. Then it was closed then he opened a couple of other threads that got closed FFP responded to two of the those threads but didn't open any new threads concerning the issue. We all want to know how this turns out but sometimes discretion is needed. Hopefully we can get him back at some time and this ban is temporary. I see both sides of this Max was pissed and wanted the world to know. Honestly if the mudslinging wasnot going on I am sure their would be a discussion still going on about this.But basically it is what it is right now and hoepfully after this is resolved he can come back. Believe me I like everyone else was studying that thread on the procharger then **** hit the fan and it went south
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Posted by raceboy on 08-24-2003 10:26 PM:
Well, I have been here longer than almost all of you and I think banning him was just ridiculous. I know this is a public site and the owners are free to ban whomever they wish, but this one just stinks. The reason why it stinks is that message boards are supposed to be primarily for the members, NOT THE VENDORS.
This board is obviously terrified of pissing off any of it's paying sponsors. If it could happen to FFP, it could happen to any of them, right? Well isn't that the purpose of a message board? So the members can communicate information with each other of where they got great service and where they got crap? Otherwise, what is the f***ing point? Since it is public, FFP can put their side of the story out for everyone to see and let the public decide. I don't need someone deciding for me. You can call it mudslinging or namecalling, but if what Max was saying was true, then he was totally justified.
Instead, to make sure the precious sponsorship money comes in, they ban one side, but not the vendor side??? Do you not smell what is wrong there??? If there were so many past problems with Max (seems like the moderators saying that should be libel), then where were his strikes?? Very stinky. So this site obviously no longer exists to serve the best interest of it's members. Just like government, it has grown so big, it just wants to serve the interest of it's constituants and damn the populace because they have no where else to go.
You all have probably noticed I post here a lot less. Out of all the car boards I have ever been on, this is the most policed one I have ever seen, and I mean policed as in "POLICE STATE." It's just not fun here anymore and I really hope one of the other boards takes off, a board that is not owned by the vendors at the expense of the people that made it what it is.
__________________
Steve Kaufman
"Remember, you can't spell Civic Type R without R-I-C-E!"
Black 350 Track, everything but Navi and Rear Splash Guards. Delivered 8/20/02
--Nismo S-Tune Suspension with Sway Bars (soon to be Moton Club Sport hopefully)
--Borla Exhaust-True Dual
--Crawford Intake Plenum
--Crawford STB
--Carbotech Panther Brake Pads
--Stoptech steel braided brake lines
--Valvoline Syntec Brake Fluid
--Redline Oil
--12lb Dynabat battery
--Grounding Kit
--AEM Polished CAI
--S03 Pole Positions 255/40/18 Rear and 245/40/18 Front
--Alpine/Infinity Sound sytem with Basslink Sub
--Enkei RPF1 race wheels. 17"X8.5"F, 17"X9.5"R with shaved Toyo RA-1 "R" compound tires size 255F and 275R.
Coming soon:
--Cams (haven't decided which ones yet)
--Crawford Headers
--Wright Tuning Race Anti Roll Bars
That's me, #71
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Posted by little_rod on 08-24-2003 10:28 PM:
Well, I haven't been around for all of the "show", and I can say that history would have a huge effect on the situation. I have communicated with Max on several occasions, and of course, he is a good guy.
One thing is for sure, don't know, and probably will never know the whole situation. I don't live in Cali, but do you think if I did, I would take my car to FFP??? lol, no.
Better yet, all I would know about the ATI unit is great things if it wasn't for Max's situation. Am I better off for knowing??? lol, yes, that is what the internet is for, the good and the bad.
And I will say something rodH left unsaid, is it OK to dog iforged while we ban people for FFP??? Nope, good and bad about both would be nice, same with ATI.
I wish Max would have used moderation. But if the Greddy kit comes out, and someone has a bad experience and dogs them on this board endlessly, are they banned??? Who knows.
I have a situation that has upset me with my car and I have thought about posting my thoughts. IF the company I go after protests my posts, will I be banned too??
Just some thoughts.
__________________
Rodney
SB 350Z Enthusiast - 6 spd - splash guards
Aero package with rear diffusers
19" iforged aeros - rodH & 2003z specials
Toyo T1-S Proxes
Hawk HPS brake pads
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Posted by rouxeny on 08-24-2003 10:44 PM:
Yes, we do not want to **** off any of the vendors. That is why each vendor gets a whole forum, and the members have the specific ability to post complaints or negative reviews.
Check them out, there have been a few negative reviews already. I also remember many harsh comments about say, IForged (as an example) posted in the past.
FFP has not been banned because they have made a total of 18 posts on this entire board, of which only some were in regards to this issue. They are also in the "cooling off period" and unlike Max, have respected it. Nobody is asking Max to stop pursuing a solution to his problem. I would just like to see him do it elsewhere. If FFP were to have had posted multiple threads in similar fashion, they would have likely been banned also.
This idea of protecting the vendors is patently ridiculous. I have absolutely no stake in any of them, or in this site, other than as a source of information.
The idea that the board is no longer serving the populace is also crazy. Keep in mind that the moderators are also fellow Z enthusiasts and are all trying to keep this site from the process of entropy. A few months ago, the feeling on this board was that the moderators had abandoned the site and that trolls were taking over. The middle ground is obviously difficult to find.
__________________
Andrew
CS Touring 6MT
Student at Dr. Bonz's Zaino Academy
"Learn from the best, outshine the rest!"
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Posted by infidsg35 on 08-24-2003 11:00 PM:
Moderators are "protecting this forum" umm BS look what you guys did there is more talk about him now then he ever made.. And guess what its not about parts, fixes, HP numbers.. So now what are you guys going to do?? Bann everyone who replys to these topics.. You guys try to do good and it blew up good job.
__________________
Infiniti G35 Coupe
Waiting on all mods..
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Posted by toykilla on 08-24-2003 11:03 PM:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Dr Bonz
Sorry, but you are incorrect. This is a PRIVATELY OWNED board and free speech does not apply here. You can run out on a PUBLIC street corner and yell whatever you want, and cry free speech all you want. This is not the case on a board on which you are a GUEST of the OWNER of the site.
I kind of liked Max. I really did. But if you have been around here as long as I have, you would have known of all of the OTHER threads in which Max's mouth (typing fingers) got him into trouble. I have seen every one. You guys who are saying that the mods were too quick to do what they did all seem to have pretty low post counts and may not have been here for the ENTIRE show. He had been given warning after warning and he never seemed to let up and that was just in the open threads! That is to say nothing of the numerous PM's I'm sure he got!
FFP has not said squat since both parties were warned. I'm certain that if they would have continued to spar with Max back and forth, they would have met the same fate.
I would like to have Max back at some point. His experiences are definitely valuable. It's just that there are ways to get your point across tactfully, effectively, and politely without resorting to slander (in this case libel), and name calling.
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why do u have to be tactfully and tricky to effectively make a point on this form?... why cant you just be blunt and state the facts without the fear of being banned?
__________________
I shall behave myself.
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Posted by little_rod on 08-24-2003 11:05 PM:
LOL, infidsg35, a bit harsh aren't you?? True Max style, lol. Dude, this is a bad situation, and the mods did the best they could do with it. I know I would hate to be in there position.
BTW, I have been on more moderated boards, by far.
__________________
Rodney
SB 350Z Enthusiast - 6 spd - splash guards
Aero package with rear diffusers
19" iforged aeros - rodH & 2003z specials
Toyo T1-S Proxes
Hawk HPS brake pads
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Posted by toykilla on 08-24-2003 11:06 PM:
quote:
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Originally posted by Wicked4u2c
Welcome to communism people...
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ive been saying this for months.. no one is realizing this yet
__________________
I shall behave myself.
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Posted by Jspec350z on 08-24-2003 11:06 PM:
Free MAX!!!!!!!! Er unban him!! He was an asset to this site. He may have been quick on the trigger but at least he was real. I for one an deeply sadden by this banning. I think it is BULLSH**, but like has been said before there are alot of 350z forums. Most of which are much faster than this one. I just wish people would relize that and move on. But than again Mods come to your senses and unban him!!!
__________________
2003 Daytona Blue 350Z Touring
Charcoal Leather
6sp MT
Back on the Stock 18's
Mods so far:
-winter wheels--Voxx Forza 17x8 W/Pirelli Wintersport 210 245/50/17
-Injen CAI Blue sitting in the box!!
-Zex Wet Kit in the mail!! Electric Blue Bottle !!!
Pictures of my Z
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Posted by toykilla on 08-24-2003 11:08 PM:
quote:
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Originally posted by nigevellie
who cares? it's done. move on. it's not your decision. it's not called www.freespeechandmy350z.com. let's stick to talking about cars, ladies and gentlemen. no need to start a pissing contest or start flexing imaginary internet muscles.
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who cares?? wtf?? if people dont stand up now to the almighty mods of this site.. it will happen again.. and again.. and again.
__________________
I shall behave myself.
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Posted by infidsg35 on 08-24-2003 11:11 PM:
Guess what I just put a "Free Max" sticker on my coupe and it added 12 RWHP and 14 Lbs of Toq..
__________________
Infiniti G35 Coupe
Waiting on all mods..
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Posted by Dr Bonz on 08-24-2003 11:12 PM:
Steve, I can't believe you think that these guys (the mods) would think like that. As a fellow "original" you know these guys from way back before they were mods and they are just like us. The only one with ANY financial stake in this is Tako and you know it.
To say that the mods are doing this for financial reasons is unfair and VERY innaccurate.
As far as I know FFP isn't a vendor or sponsor are they? And ATI isn't at fault here either. Of all of the Procharger installs on this board (and there are probably about a dozen now with more happening as we speak) Max's is the only one with even a mention of a major problem. I don't think we need to drag ATI into this (at least not yet).
It has been stated that FFP had the same opportunity to rebut Max's accusations but maybe they instead chose to be more professional by trying to settle it man to man in person instead of here on a message board. If Max would have done the same, no problems. Again, that isn't to say he couldn't STILL state what was going on with his negotiations with FFP, or that he STILL wasn't happy with their solutions.
__________________
JUST ZAY-NO!
The Doctor is in.......a Brickyard Track 350Z.
NISMO Body Kit, CF Emblem Covers, Front "Z" Emblem, Brickyard Painted Engine Cover/Strut Brace, "Z" Oil Cap.
Pioneer XM Satellite Radio, Valentine One Radar Detection, The In-Z P.C. with Xenarc Screen, Windows XP Professional, GPS Navigation, DVD/MP3 Player, & TV Tuner
AEM Cold Air Intake, Z-Xtreme Grounding Kit, Borla True Dual Exhaust, & NOW....can you say "Procharger".....Sure, I knew you could!
Dr Bonz 350Z Gallery
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Posted by vics350 on 08-24-2003 11:12 PM:
Wow, I'm going to miss that thread with Max. I actually was entertaining myself reading it. I know it was getting nasty but I actually was learning some things.
I kinda agree with rodH though because there was a time when a member, who was having a bad experience with iForged, was ripping them and I never saw a moderator step in. Maybe it's because iForged wasn't a sponsoring vendor at that time but I know there were people that made their decisions on not buying iForged based on his comments. My experience with iForged was the total opposite of his but I never felt it was wrong of him to express his opinion no matter how nasty he got.
Maybe I'm looking at it wrong but seems like a there is special treatment now giving to paying vendors which I believe is not in the best interest of the consumer. Obviously, the vendors are sponsoring because of the large number of potential consumers on this forum and if every member was to leave here, so would the vendors.
Oh well, this is just my .02 cents on this subject. I will miss Max's contribution but at the same time I do respect whatever actions the moderators on this forum take.
__________________
Victor
CS Touring - 6MT, Nav, kick plates, rear spoiler
Clear side markers
Grounding wires
"Z" oil filler cap
Billet aluminum oil dipstick
Nismo radiator cap
Polished Injen CAI w/black connectors and tube
Chrome grill trim
19x8 +18 iForged RS Aeros Brushed Aluminum Face
19x10 +29 iForged RS Aeros Brushed Aluminum Face
245/35/19 Falken FK-451
285/35/19 Falken FK-451
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Posted by toykilla on 08-24-2003 11:16 PM:
i have seen a TON of good arguements for max coming back.. but the only thing i have seen agains him is that he was warned... .ok warned about what? expressing his opinions? letting us know about how he got screwed??... geez i would like to know everything and be able to discern the information for myself rather than be spoonfed and blindfolded by the moderators here.
__________________
I shall behave myself.
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Posted by little_rod on 08-24-2003 11:20 PM:
I wonder, can Max post under a different name??? Hmmm.......lol.
__________________
Rodney
SB 350Z Enthusiast - 6 spd - splash guards
Aero package with rear diffusers
19" iforged aeros - rodH & 2003z specials
Toyo T1-S Proxes
Hawk HPS brake pads
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Posted by jak on 08-24-2003 11:22 PM:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by raceboy
Well, I have been here longer than almost all of you and I think banning him was just ridiculous. I know this is a public site and the owners are free to ban whomever they wish, but this one just stinks. The reason why it stinks is that message boards are supposed to be primarily for the members, NOT THE VENDORS.
This board is obviously terrified of pissing off any of it's paying sponsors. If it could happen to FFP, it could happen to any of them, right? Well isn't that the purpose of a message board? So the members can communicate information with each other of where they got great service and where they got crap? Otherwise, what is the f***ing point? Since it is public, FFP can put their side of the story out for everyone to see and let the public decide. I don't need someone deciding for me. You can call it mudslinging or namecalling, but if what Max was saying was true, then he was totally justified.
Instead, to make sure the precious sponsorship money comes in, they ban one side, but not the vendor side??? Do you not smell what is wrong there??? If there were so many past problems with Max (seems like the moderators saying that should be libel), then where were his strikes?? Very stinky. So this site obviously no longer exists to serve the best interest of it's members. Just like government, it has grown so big, it just wants to serve the interest of it's constituants and damn the populace because they have no where else to go.
You all have probably noticed I post here a lot less. Out of all the car boards I have ever been on, this is the most policed one I have ever seen, and I mean policed as in "POLICE STATE." It's just not fun here anymore and I really hope one of the other boards takes off, a board that is not owned by the vendors at the expense of the people that made it what it is.
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Well said!!
I remember making a post once on alternative lower cost big brakes and got jumped all over because they were not StopTech. They must be another one of those high paying sponsors that can do no wrong and can't afford to be lost by negative comments.
Jeff
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Posted by 350z1337 on 08-24-2003 11:23 PM:
ive just started reading this forum but if its like this ill more than gladly saty at club350.com i have read it and been a member for a while and there hasnt been anything like this yet
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Posted by pimp1911 on 08-24-2003 11:28 PM:
My 2cents. If he was warned and then continues to do wrong then the actions the mods took was justified. For example if you get pulled over for speeding and get a warning. And then speed again and get pulled over by the same cop. You are going down. Its business not personal folks. Look at the ads and you can figure that out. I personally wouldnt want to have a b*%%h session with a vendor or dealership over a forum. Go down to the place of business or call them and handle it off line. Max did enough by just putting the message out that he had problems. Then it got ugly.
__________________
350z Chrome Silver Touring 6 speed. All options except Navigation.
Mods:
Clear Side Markers
Custom Grill
Tint 30% rear 35% sides
Z emblem for hood
Z-Xtreme Red Grounding Kit
JDM Altezza Antenna
Injen CAI Red Kit
Nismo Radiator Cap
Nismo Oil Cap
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Posted by toykilla on 08-24-2003 11:29 PM:
sometimes things must get ugle if you want to accomplish something... his vendor apparantly wasnt responsive to his complaints/requests... this would no doubt get dirty after that bullsh**
__________________
I shall behave myself.
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Posted by pimp1911 on 08-24-2003 11:39 PM:
True, True toykilla.
__________________
350z Chrome Silver Touring 6 speed. All options except Navigation.
Mods:
Clear Side Markers
Custom Grill
Tint 30% rear 35% sides
Z emblem for hood
Z-Xtreme Red Grounding Kit
JDM Altezza Antenna
Injen CAI Red Kit
Nismo Radiator Cap
Nismo Oil Cap
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted by ares on 08-24-2003 11:47 PM:
arguement against him?
ok, its clear an example is needed.
-taken from this thread. started by him to sell his tires.
https://my350z.com/forum/showthr...&threadid=40144
quote:
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F/S 16 in rims w/ Micky Thompson ET Streets
The rims fit our Z's and are 16 in (perfect for racing.) The tires are Mickey Thompson ET Streets 26X 10 and are like new. They have been to the track twice and will last at least a couple more seasons. I have never tracked them hard because of my car being in the shop for the SC. The tires alone were 175.00 each about 2 months ago. Rims and tires 250.00 cash.
I am looking for someone to pick them up. Too heavy to ship!
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quote:
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max,
if you can't sell them locally, I'd take them for $275 shipped the slowest, cheapest way possible.
Sorry to hear your troubles, hang in there my friend,
Craig
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quote:
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ok thanks,
I think you are the one FFP is publishing emails to on the website. Did you know that he is building a website to publish our emails?
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quote:
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Max,
What re you talking about. Who is FFP??? Info is much appreciated. Publishing emails? That sounds like something I don't like.
Just so you know, which you probably do, I'm the one that bought the intake and pullies from you.
Craig
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quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
PM me so I don't get heat. You are mentioned and called a liar about losing your race so I have all the data and urls including another not at this domain. The quote is "the funny part" as if any of this was funny. I am trying to deal in PM's and email and landlines instead of this forum.
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so theres one example, this is in a thread started BY HIM to sell his tires, yet somehow in only 3 posts the topic again changed to badmouthing the company. I can honestly say I didnt even know who FFP is, I still dont, I dont care, didnt know they were a sponsor.(if I did, it wouldnt make a damn bit of difference)
anyway, regaurdless he was asked not to continue the badmouthing of the installer untill the facts came out, as far as I know to this day, no one knows what the problem is. it may be the install, it may be the SC, or it may very well be a coincidence actually stemming from the past of the car when it ran as much as a 75 or higher shot of nitrous. I really dont know, neither does he, or FPP. and it really doesnt matter, but its not right to run out and badmouth someone before your sure its their fault.
even so, there is a whole section of forums dedicated to reviews of site sponsors(and one for non site sponsors as well). he could have spoke his peice in there. it was not nescessary to turn every post into a negative remark.
many of you may not agree with the outcome, that is obvious, but maxhax hardly tried to help himself in the situation, the request was simple, do not speak of the problems between him and FFP untill the issue was settled. he could seek help from the forum on fixing it, he could talk about his car all he wanted, just please dont use the forum as a tool to bash that company repeatedly.
he chose to ignore our requests, sometime completely sidestepping the issue as tho it was a game to see if he could get by the rules. well guess what, rules are around for a reason, as are warnings, your free to ignore the rules, however membership on this forum is not a right.
his IP was NOT banned, he can come back, we cant nor are we trying to stop him. however if he wants to come back and pick the fight up where it was left off, he will be banned again.
I know I am, and many of the other mods, completely impartial, we are not compensated for our work here, we do this as our gift to the community. and if I order from a seller and am unhappy, you can be damn sure Ill complain, but Ill be sure to do it in the review forum and Ill make sure I complain after its settled and I know I have the facts straight. why would I have any allegiance to a sponsor? he doesnt pay me.
__________________
2003 350Z SB/Black Touring 6mt "I live my life one wash at a time. ... for those 5 hours or less, my car is clean"
blue DIY grounding kit,20% tint moving side windows, 5% everywhere else(hotspot tinting),JDM smoked corner reflectors with LEDs, car PC, Bronze 18" TE-37, in-car-PC coming soon
LED sidemarkers for sale
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Posted by Mikestro on 08-25-2003 12:07 AM:
If Max Max remains banned, then the terrorists have truly won.
(if anyone takes offense to this, then they have not watched one "Tonight Show with Jay Leno" in the last two years.)
__________________
2003 CS Touring
Mods:
Simpson's Sun Deflector
Map Pocket
Infiniti Basslink
Infiniti 6001s
RF 250W Amp
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Posted by toykilla on 08-25-2003 12:12 AM:
if his car was jacked up ... he has every right to badmouth the people who did the install
__________________
I shall behave myself.
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Posted by Scafremon on 08-25-2003 12:21 AM:
You 'free max' advocates are so transparent. You crack me up with all your "communism", "hidden agenda" posts.
Friends of Max....pfft. Some friends you all are!
Did any of you who were being so entertained by his situation stop to think that maybe he shouldn't be posting some of this stuff, as it could work against him in the long run? I'm sure you all PM'd him, and suggessted that he back off a tad, right?
Nah. That would of ended the fun for all of you.
So many of you want to blow this situation out of proportion, like Max was taking out back and put in front of a firing squad.
Max Lives People!
He just can't post on this forum right now. That's all.
Suffer for a bit without his posts, instead of him suffering for posting them.
__________________
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Posted by raceboy on 08-25-2003 12:36 AM:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Dr Bonz
Steve, I can't believe you think that these guys (the mods) would think like that. As a fellow "original" you know these guys from way back before they were mods and they are just like us. The only one with ANY financial stake in this is Tako and you know it. To say that the mods are doing this for financial reasons is unfair and VERY innaccurate.
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I think that mods are people too and people are corrupted with power, no matter how ridiculously small that power is in the grand scheme of things. I had a yellow card at one time myself for what I still believe was no good reason.
quote:
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Originally posted by Dr Bonz
As far as I know FFP isn't a vendor or sponsor are they? And ATI isn't at fault here either. Of all of the Procharger installs on this board (and there are probably about a dozen now with more happening as we speak) Max's is the only one with even a mention of a major problem. I don't think we need to drag ATI into this (at least not yet).
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Yes, I know they aren't a sponsor, but to attract potential new sponsors you have to let them know they will be protected if a situation like this arises. Obviously they were. The entire strike system was bypassed (why?) and the mods chose to go directly to banning.
quote:
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Originally posted by Dr Bonz
It has been stated that FFP had the same opportunity to rebut Max's accusations but maybe they instead chose to be more professional by trying to settle it man to man in person instead of here on a message board. If Max would have done the same, no problems. Again, that isn't to say he couldn't STILL state what was going on with his negotiations with FFP, or that he STILL wasn't happy with their solutions.
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I don't know what really happened or who is really in the right and who is in the wrong, but that isn't this issue. If a company has done something wrong, it's in their best interest to just let it die. No sense for them to feed the flames and just let more and more people become aware of it.
Ultimately to me the issue is this. This site has rules. You are expected to follow those rules. If you break the rules, there was supposedly a system in place with strikes and 3 your out (not really that bad of a system IMHO). OK, so say Max broke the rules; then why wasn't the normal system of strikes followed in his case as a sanction??? The mods have stated they had numerous problems with him, why didn't they impose the strike as a sanction?? Why did they skip the entire process? He wasn't a troll just coming here to stir the pot or some idiot with racial epithets or sexist remarks. He was a long time member and should have been given that respect. The mods should have handled it by following their own system. Then there isn't much that could have been said. They could have given him the first strike, then the second, if he picked up a third, how could he complain? But they went directly to ban, do not pass go, do not collect $200. It doesn't make sense.
If the mods would have just followed the procedure that they invented and put in place, I don't think we would be having this discussion right now. Now all of us have to wonder if we put one foot out of line, will we be banned?? Machiavellian rule at it's finest.
__________________
Steve Kaufman
"Remember, you can't spell Civic Type R without R-I-C-E!"
Black 350 Track, everything but Navi and Rear Splash Guards. Delivered 8/20/02
--Nismo S-Tune Suspension with Sway Bars (soon to be Moton Club Sport hopefully)
--Borla Exhaust-True Dual
--Crawford Intake Plenum
--Crawford STB
--Carbotech Panther Brake Pads
--Stoptech steel braided brake lines
--Valvoline Syntec Brake Fluid
--Redline Oil
--12lb Dynabat battery
--Grounding Kit
--AEM Polished CAI
--S03 Pole Positions 255/40/18 Rear and 245/40/18 Front
--Alpine/Infinity Sound sytem with Basslink Sub
--Enkei RPF1 race wheels. 17"X8.5"F, 17"X9.5"R with shaved Toyo RA-1 "R" compound tires size 255F and 275R.
Coming soon:
--Cams (haven't decided which ones yet)
--Crawford Headers
--Wright Tuning Race Anti Roll Bars
That's me, #71
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Posted by ihatethatbobbarker on 08-25-2003 12:41 AM:
max was warned in pms, thats like getting a strike without everyone else seeing it.
you guys talk about censorship, i get away with saying plenty and ill say it to a sponsor and not ahve a problem, no mod has ever told me to be careful with a sponsor, my strike is for making a sexual comment(im actually surprised i really did get a strike for it but oh well)
__________________
-Blue is cool
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Posted by infidsg35 on 08-25-2003 12:43 AM:
Bla Bla Bla.. I think Max is still here LoL since we are still here fighting about nonsence... I say give him the chair!!! Talking bad about vendors should be punishable by death.. PERIOD!!!
I also agree with Raceboy as I always do..
__________________
Infiniti G35 Coupe
Waiting on all mods..
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Posted by Scafremon on 08-25-2003 12:45 AM:
Steve,
Your whole issue in this matter is that you didn't get a chance to see some different colored cards by Max's name?
I think the mods have already stated numerous times that Max was warned on previous occassions. Isn't that enough? Do we have to see yellow, then red cards by peoples names for a certain amount of time before further action can be taken by the mods?
__________________
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Posted by infidsg35 on 08-25-2003 12:48 AM:
YES!! If that is the procedure...
__________________
Infiniti G35 Coupe
Waiting on all mods..
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Posted by tbcz on 08-25-2003 12:53 AM:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by raceboy
This board is obviously terrified of pissing off any of it's paying sponsors. If it could happen to FFP, it could happen to any of them, right? Well isn't that the purpose of a message board? So the members can communicate information with each other of where they got great service and where they got crap? Otherwise, what is the f***ing point? Since it is public, FFP can put their side of the story out for everyone to see and let the public decide. I don't need someone deciding for me. You can call it mudslinging or namecalling, but if what Max was saying was true, then he was totally justified.
Instead, to make sure the precious sponsorship money comes in, they ban one side, but not the vendor side??? Do you not smell what is wrong there??? If there were so many past problems with Max (seems like the moderators saying that should be libel), then where were his strikes?? Very stinky. So this site obviously no longer exists to serve the best interest of it's members. Just like government, it has grown so big, it just wants to serve the interest of it's constituants and damn the populace because they have no where else to go.
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This is absurd. What the hell do I stand to gain by protecting a vendor? A non-sponsoring vendor at that? What...I am going to be fired from my non-paying moderator job? I couldn't care less whether it was FFP or anyone else including a site sponsor. The day that Victor tells me I have to delete or otherwise suppress negative feedback about a vendor is the day I step down as a moderator here and move to another site.
FFP has not been banned because they have never done anything wrong. They have never done a thing to draw attention to themselves. When we requested that they refrain from posting on this topic until more facts were known and a resolution was reached, they actually listened. Not very hard. Perhaps you can point me to a reason why they should have been banned...is it just because max was banned? Sorry, but this is hardly reason enough. I will reiterate this for like the third time...MaxHax's banning is the result of several situations that have occured over the last six months.
This does lead to a valid point you raised however...why no strikes? The honest reason (for me) is that with MaxHax, strikes would have been useless. If you ever had to listen to one of his PM tirades against you for the slightest suggestion or warning, you would know what I mean. MaxHax, for all his good qualities, did not suffer criticism well. He certainly deserved strikes for his past behavior (and I will again remind you that there is much that has been deleted from the forum or that perhaps you have missed). I have never given him one because I honestly thought that he would be so bitter about it that it would ruin his presence here. I also do take into consideration a members contributions to this site. maxhax had proven himself to be a valuable poster, with lots of information to share. I am always reluctant to be strict with members who have spent so much time contributing. Mind you, this does not mean he wasn't warned through PM about his actions and/or behavior. it just means that he didn't have any public strikes. He knew damn well how many times he had crossed the line and ignored it. As another mod stated, apparantly he felt it was some kind of game to see how many times he could ignore us...I am sure he was just baiting the staff, poised to scream bloody murder whenever we didi make any actions public.
I will again say that there are many things that you do not know...I can understand your disgreement if you think max was banned solely for refusing our request to back off on his supercharger install for the time being. This was not however what happened. I have neither the time nor in the case of deleted posts/threads the ability to research and repost the numerous instances to back up my claims. Guess I'll just settle for being "libel".
quote:
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I would be interested to know more about the "cumulative effect" in whcih you speak of. For those of us who are unaware, please share the other contributory factors. I am assuming there is much more than his dealings with FFP that has placed him in this situation with the forum?
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The other factors in this are repeated breaking of the sites rules, plain and simple. If you have numerous posts or threads deleted and have received many PMs from the mods about the rules or your behavior or your posting habits, then you can be pretty sure that the "cumulative effect" is in play. Believe me, you have to go out of your way to get to this point. And you will be given every opportunity to change your ways (unless you fall into the blatent racism/troll category, in which case there is much less tolerence).
__________________
Tim - Charter member #2
Silver Enthusiast/6MT/Kickplates/Mats
Delivered 9/13/02
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Posted by N4Spd on 08-25-2003 12:55 AM:
uh, yah...
quote:
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Originally posted by infidsg35
YES!! If that is the procedure...
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right on!
__________________
g35c, WAS: brickyard track
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Posted by raceboy on 08-25-2003 12:59 AM:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Scafremon
Steve,
Your whole issue in this matter is that you didn't get a chance to see some different colored cards by Max's name?
I think the mods have already stated numerous times that Max was warned on previous occassions. Isn't that enough? Do we have to see yellow, then red cards by peoples names for a certain amount of time before further action can be taken by the mods?
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Let's say you were driving 5 miles an hour over the limit in a school zone. I bet you would be mad as hell if they just went straight to taking away your license instead of just giving you a ticket. I wouldn't buy the government's argument of "take our word for it, we have warned him before." Give someone the same courtesy you would want for yourself.
I bet you would be crying about procedure then!
__________________
Steve Kaufman
"Remember, you can't spell Civic Type R without R-I-C-E!"
Black 350 Track, everything but Navi and Rear Splash Guards. Delivered 8/20/02
--Nismo S-Tune Suspension with Sway Bars (soon to be Moton Club Sport hopefully)
--Borla Exhaust-True Dual
--Crawford Intake Plenum
--Crawford STB
--Carbotech Panther Brake Pads
--Stoptech steel braided brake lines
--Valvoline Syntec Brake Fluid
--Redline Oil
--12lb Dynabat battery
--Grounding Kit
--AEM Polished CAI
--S03 Pole Positions 255/40/18 Rear and 245/40/18 Front
--Alpine/Infinity Sound sytem with Basslink Sub
--Enkei RPF1 race wheels. 17"X8.5"F, 17"X9.5"R with shaved Toyo RA-1 "R" compound tires size 255F and 275R.
Coming soon:
--Cams (haven't decided which ones yet)
--Crawford Headers
--Wright Tuning Race Anti Roll Bars
That's me, #71
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted by SHAQMAGIC on 08-25-2003 01:04 AM:
I've been on the forum for a few months and personally a few of the mods **** me off by being so biased.
They worship certain products and rip on others so fast it's ridiculous.
I've seen mods rip users, even call a user stupid..
A moderator should do just that, moderate, we'd be better off without your opinions, or maybe you could post your opinions under a different screen-name because they are now tainted in most users opinions.
However; I missed the Max thread, maybe someone can pm it to me for my amusement. If the mods want to ban him, that's their right whether it's fair or not.
Someone used a cop analogy about speeding for why MAX should be banned, good try but that arguement actually helps MAX.
You said the cop lets him go then catches him again and boom he deserves a ticket.
Well MAX was let go and got "caught" again but he didn't get a ticket, he got his license suspended.
Bad procedure mods. you have strikes, use them, use them fast if you have to, but use them.
Also mods, in my opinion, you guys seem like you are enjoying this, a true professional would not post one more word, you are adding fuel to the fire. Stop your posts and the thread ends.
You DO NOT HAVE TO ANSWER TO ANYONE for your actions and by continually answering you are actually trying to talk yourselves into believeing the ban was justified.
__________________
Lemans Sunset Touring 6MT
Burnt Orange
Every Option
Custom Grille
ADR Sterlings
Hawk HPS Pads
Insaneamine Grounding kit (Lemans Sunset)
Tint (Any week now, too lazy)
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Posted by Mikestro on 08-25-2003 01:12 AM:
I hold patents in the field of electrical engineering an a mod said at one point (avatar story) that my actions lacked creativity. Well, I also purchased a Sony Wega a few months ago, I guess Iwasn't creative enough to design my own? Some things are designed and some things are purchased, get used to it.
Some mods show up and say "be nice, be nice" then when they choose to step in, they make rude and biased comments.
This does not apply to all mods.
__________________
2003 CS Touring
Mods:
Simpson's Sun Deflector
Map Pocket
Infiniti Basslink
Infiniti 6001s
RF 250W Amp
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Posted by Scafremon on 08-25-2003 01:15 AM:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by raceboy
Let's say you were driving 5 miles an hour over the limit in a school zone. I bet you would be mad as hell if they just went straight to taking away your license instead of just giving you a ticket. I wouldn't buy the government's argument of "take our word for it, we have warned him before." Give someone the same courtesy you would want for yourself.
I bet you would be crying about procedure then!
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Unless they had to chase me, and even though they were on their PA system shouting "Pull Over! Pull Over!", I just kept racing. Ran a couple red lights (Pull Over! Pull Over!), made some pedestrians dodge out of a crosswalk (PULL OVER! PULL OVER!"), ended up hitting the spike strips on the highway before they could stop me.
Hopefully you would be there on my side letting them know that you didn't see anything, and they would just give me a yellow card, and I could be on my way.
It's not the government Steve. It's a car forum. Our friends donate their time to try and help keep things civil around here.
Let's keep things in perspective, or we might as well just start typing "right on!"
__________________
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Posted by Mikestro on 08-25-2003 01:18 AM:
quote:
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Originally posted by Scafremon
Unless they had to chase me, and even though they were on their PA system shouting "Pull Over! Pull Over!", I just kept racing. Ran a couple red lights (Pull Over! Pull Over!), made some pedestrians dodge out of a crosswalk (PULL OVER! PULL OVER!"), ended up hitting the spike strips on the highway before they could stop me.
Hopefully you would be there on my side letting them know that you didn't see anything, and they would just give me a yellow card, and I could be on my way.
It's not the government Steve. It's a car forum. Our friends donate their time to try and help keep things civil around here.
Let's keep things in perspective, or we might as well just start typing "right on!"
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right on man, I'm feeling ya
__________________
2003 CS Touring
Mods:
Simpson's Sun Deflector
Map Pocket
Infiniti Basslink
Infiniti 6001s
RF 250W Amp
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Posted by infidsg35 on 08-25-2003 01:22 AM:
Yes and if you went to court and said I have no tickets but got my License taken away for speeding I bet they would say that is way to harsh and that is wrong of the cop (mod) to not fallow proper procedure.. I bet they would reinstate his license.. Like everything there is procedure and if it not fallowed and something drastic happens people will get loud about it..
Scaf: that was pretty dumb the proper procedure is a cop will fallow you and if he puts his lights a sirens on you have to pull over... Tickets represent red, yellow cards not the PA
__________________
Infiniti G35 Coupe
Waiting on all mods..
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Posted by Scafremon on 08-25-2003 01:34 AM:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by infidsg35
Scaf: that was pretty dumb the proper procedure is a cop will fallow you and if he puts his lights a sirens on you have to pull over... Tickets represent red, yellow cards not the PA
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You're right. That was kinda dumb. My aplogies.
You see, I was really reaching on that analogy. I was trying to come up with a way that I could get my first warning, and my second warning, and then get my license taken away all in a brief amount of time. I wish I would have thought of the 'lights and sirens' thingy - that would've been good to add to my story.
It's just that sometimes I get these ideas - heck - just thoughts are all they are really. And I start typing even before I have the whole scenario worked out in my head. I kinda just wing-it while I type.
Take this post for instance as an example. I had no idea that I would still be typing at this point! I mean, I didn'tplan on sharing this most intimate part of how my brain works with you and everyone else, and yet, I keep going.
Boy oh boy. Now this is what I call losing the continuity of the thread!
My bad. Sorry everyone. Please continue.
(oops)
__________________
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Posted by raceboy on 08-25-2003 01:37 AM:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Scafremon
You're right. That was kinda dumb. My aplogies.
You see, I was really reaching on that analogy. I was trying to come up with a way that I could get my first warning, and my second warning, and then get my license taken away all in a brief amount of time. I wish I would have thought of the 'lights and sirens' thingy - that would've been good to add to my story.
It's just that sometimes I get these ideas - heck - just thoughts are all they are really. And I start typing even before I have the whole scenario worked out in my head. I kinda just wing-it while I type.
Take this post for instance as an example. I had no idea that I would still be typing at this point! I mean, I didn'tplan on sharing this most intimate part of how my brain works with you and everyone else, and yet, I keep going.
Boy oh boy. Now this is what I call losing the continuity of the thread!
My bad. Sorry everyone. Please continue.
(oops)
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Mods: I think Scaf should get a strike just for this post. Charge him with reckless use of bandwidth!! Oh wait, what am I doing, nevermind, carry on as you were.
__________________
Steve Kaufman
"Remember, you can't spell Civic Type R without R-I-C-E!"
Black 350 Track, everything but Navi and Rear Splash Guards. Delivered 8/20/02
--Nismo S-Tune Suspension with Sway Bars (soon to be Moton Club Sport hopefully)
--Borla Exhaust-True Dual
--Crawford Intake Plenum
--Crawford STB
--Carbotech Panther Brake Pads
--Stoptech steel braided brake lines
--Valvoline Syntec Brake Fluid
--Redline Oil
--12lb Dynabat battery
--Grounding Kit
--AEM Polished CAI
--S03 Pole Positions 255/40/18 Rear and 245/40/18 Front
--Alpine/Infinity Sound sytem with Basslink Sub
--Enkei RPF1 race wheels. 17"X8.5"F, 17"X9.5"R with shaved Toyo RA-1 "R" compound tires size 255F and 275R.
Coming soon:
--Cams (haven't decided which ones yet)
--Crawford Headers
--Wright Tuning Race Anti Roll Bars
That's me, #71
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted by luvdatz on 08-25-2003 02:05 AM:
Come on everybody, I'm sure not all 15,000 people on the forum have given their opinion yet. It must be a conspiracy, the mods are getting some sort of sick enjoyment out of this. Cheer on your side, the side who gets the most cheers wins, right? (The previous paragraph was sarcasm for those who aren't sure what I mean)
It's like a train wreck, a horrible disaster, but you can't look away and then you've got to tell all your friends about it. This is ridiculous people.
This is just a male soap opera. Everybody was there egging on Max, but nobody takes the time to look at the damage that Max's posts have done to FFP's business. He doesn't know enough to know what the problem is, yet he can accuse FFP of doing a bad install. Maybe it is the install, maybe it isn't. In the meantime we've got a possibly innocent performance shop being crucified for the whole world to see before the facts are in.
What's going to happen if we find out it's not the install??
Their reputation is now destroyed with 350z owners, nobody is going to go there now because they'll be told "Yeah don't go to FFP because they don't know what they're doing" by someone who read it on the internet. It happens all the time.
There are many people on this forum who like nothing better than a good argument, but don't have enough common sense to look at the big picture and think things through intelligently. To those of you who don't know whether I'm talking about you, I am.
Get on with your life, Max is gone probably not for good, but he is for now. Hopefully he learned a lesson from it and can continue to provide useful information for those of us who are here for that.
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Posted by elektrik_juggernaut on 08-25-2003 03:08 AM:
FFP broke the BASIC RULES several times.......how many posts did they start out with,"Paul, you are such a liar...."?......i thought name-calling was a striking/banning offense.
__________________
Chrome Silver Performance 6MT
Procharger from Mike @ Altered Atmosphere
Install by Dave @ Black Magic Racing
Prior to Procharger:
13.64@103.28mph
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Posted by SteveZzz on 08-25-2003 06:51 AM:
I'm a relative newcomer here, but I participate and have moderated forums dedicated to other subjects. Several of those are much, much larger than this one. As an example, one of them has over 1,000 users online at any given time, and has over 75,000 members and over 2 million posts.
These types of threads will pop up from time to time. Only the subject and users change. Anytime you have a group of people (real or virtual) you'll have disagreements and opinions. The bottom line is this is a PRIVATE forum, and the owners and their agents (the moderators) can do whatever they see fit as appropriate.
As someone here said, if you don't like the way this forum is manged, don't frequent it. If you find it valuable, then use it in a way the owners deem fit.
__________________
Steve
Chrome Silver 350Z Enthusiast
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Posted by toykilla on 08-25-2003 09:45 AM:
I THINK EVERYONE ON THIS THREAD SHOULD BE BANNED
...
oh what the hell... every registered member should be banned as well.. lets start over
__________________
I shall behave myself.
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Posted by Richard 350z on 08-25-2003 10:05 AM:
The Thread Was Moved -
This thread is now on the "Site Maintenance - Feedback" forum. I'll bet all the members to that forum as soon as they sign on. Hopefully the moderators will leave the "cross-reference" on the Engine Mods forum. If not, well . . .
Richard
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Posted by GaryK on 08-25-2003 10:55 AM:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by luvdatz
Come on everybody, I'm sure not all 15,000 people on the forum have given their opinion yet. It must be a conspiracy, the mods are getting some sort of sick enjoyment out of this. Cheer on your side, the side who gets the most cheers wins, right? (The previous paragraph was sarcasm for those who aren't sure what I mean)
It's like a train wreck, a horrible disaster, but you can't look away and then you've got to tell all your friends about it. This is ridiculous people.
This is just a male soap opera. Everybody was there egging on Max, but nobody takes the time to look at the damage that Max's posts have done to FFP's business. He doesn't know enough to know what the problem is, yet he can accuse FFP of doing a bad install. Maybe it is the install, maybe it isn't. In the meantime we've got a possibly innocent performance shop being crucified for the whole world to see before the facts are in.
What's going to happen if we find out it's not the install??
Their reputation is now destroyed with 350z owners, nobody is going to go there now because they'll be told "Yeah don't go to FFP because they don't know what they're doing" by someone who read it on the internet. It happens all the time.
There are many people on this forum who like nothing better than a good argument, but don't have enough common sense to look at the big picture and think things through intelligently. To those of you who don't know whether I'm talking about you, I am.
Get on with your life, Max is gone probably not for good, but he is for now. Hopefully he learned a lesson from it and can continue to provide useful information for those of us who are here for that.
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Wow, somebody else that actually considers that there might, just maybe, possibly be more than one side to the story. I'm not going to take sides in the ATI install matter, but it is very possible that the car had problems prior to going to FFP. Its also possible that it didn't. But nobody here knows the whole story about the install and the problems. Max doesn't know that much about it himself, so how can you take his word that FFP is absolutely the cause of all the problems?
Its also apparent that nobody here knows the whole story about the warnings and dialogue between Max and the mods, except for Max and the mods. Just because you don't know about the warnings and rule infractions does not mean it didn't happen. I don't have a problem with Max, but I can see that he probably wouldn't have dealt with the yellow and red cards very well, and they probably did him a favor by issuing private warnings. Hopefully this will all get worked out, but you guys need to give the mods a break or go somewhere else IMHO.
__________________
GaryK
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Posted by pimp1911 on 08-25-2003 11:22 AM:
Rodney King "Can't we all just get along".
__________________
350z Chrome Silver Touring 6 speed. All options except Navigation.
Mods:
Clear Side Markers
Custom Grill
Tint 30% rear 35% sides
Z emblem for hood
Z-Xtreme Red Grounding Kit
JDM Altezza Antenna
Injen CAI Red Kit
Nismo Radiator Cap
Nismo Oil Cap
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Posted by Richard 350z on 08-25-2003 11:51 AM:
NO
No. We can't ALL get along. MaxHax can't get along because he has been banned.
Richard
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Posted by jesseenglish on 08-25-2003 12:00 PM:
Just to let people know, don't know if you actually care about whether Max's problem is getting fixed or if it's just an excuse for people to argue. It is still being worked on even without this website. I'll try to post some resolution to this matter when we figure it out.
Just a reminder, no one here is getting "Z" points anymore, so it doesn't help your point count to put worthless posts up. I was kind of hoping that the administrator getting rid of the points would stop the unecessary posts. Obviously not though.
__________________
Pikes Peak White Enthusiast
______________________________
ATI Procharger
Borla True Dual Exhaust
Alpine CDA-9815
Brown Bread
Diamond Plate Floor Mats
Insaneanime grounding kit
What was the best thing before sliced bread?
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Posted by nonmature on 08-25-2003 01:03 PM:
quote:
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Originally posted by jesseenglish
The purpose of this forum is to discuss cars whether positive or negative. Name calling is a waste of my time and a waste of precious bandwidth. I've got a 56k modem and only connect at 26.2 When I click on a thread that's purported to be about the installation of a procharger supercharger, I expect it to be just that. Why should people have to weed through a bunch of crap posts to get to the real cause behind a problem.
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name calling is on every board Flamin and everything comes with differing opinions... I agree with richard , EJ , and toykilla Max should not have been banned.. I was talkin to TCBz about this just prior to max's ban... the post generally got takin the way they did not only because of max and FFP, but because of the rest of us that jumped in and agrued about it so if max was to blame I think everyone that posted in any of those posts to fuel the fire be banned as well... this includes ME, FFP, and many other members... max did not need to be banned there could have been an alternate form of punishment found...
As for tbcz not bannin ffp because hes a vendor, come on people dont be stupid even though tbcz had to deal with a lot of max's crap but after PM'ing him myself I do not think he is so shallow as to get rid of only max because of these incidents...
bottom line this was all of our faults in those threads, not just max's, and I think max should be reinstated on this board
__________________
Borla exhaust
Technosquare ECU
Frankenstein Nitrous kit... hehehe
Nos solenoids with
NX bottle and remote opener
14.09 @ CalSpeedway(I/E/ECU)
*RED*AEM CAI
*RED* Hyperground grounding kit
*RED* streetglow underglow
*RED* bars under dash and seats
~~~upcoming~~~
Carbon Fiber Nismo Body Kit(being made)
Volk te37's on order in gunmetal
Toyo's or Bridgestones (struggling)
headers(dont know which)
Greddy turbo(after you are my guinea pig)
EVOLUTION INDUSTRIES
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Posted by elektrik_juggernaut on 08-25-2003 01:05 PM:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by jesseenglish
Just to let people know, don't know if you actually care about whether Max's problem is getting fixed or if it's just an excuse for people to argue. It is still being worked on even without this website. I'll try to post some resolution to this matter when we figure it out.
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Yes it is.......today Nissan will be doing an independent leak-down test on his car......this will either back up Nissan's prior compression check that said "all cylinders good".......or it will tell us if his motor is indeed suffering from bad rings......i suspect the former, but we shall see
__________________
Chrome Silver Performance 6MT
Procharger from Mike @ Altered Atmosphere
Install by Dave @ Black Magic Racing
Prior to Procharger:
13.64@103.28mph
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Posted by jesseenglish on 08-25-2003 01:10 PM:
I highly suspect it has nothing to do with rings. I'm waiting on pics of the PCV system from Max to really get a good look at how things were setup.
__________________
Pikes Peak White Enthusiast
______________________________
ATI Procharger
Borla True Dual Exhaust
Alpine CDA-9815
Brown Bread
Diamond Plate Floor Mats
Insaneanime grounding kit
What was the best thing before sliced bread?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted by TheSVTKid on 08-25-2003 05:08 PM:
Since that I have installed 5 of these 350Z kits already. And honestly I enjoy the installs, and the tuning both on and off the dyno, with a wideband.
I have to say the PCV system is VERY easy to install, and you would have to be TRYING to mess it up. If you have ever worked with forced induction, then all the same rules apply to this 350Z/G35 motor.
Honestly, after doing many of these kits, I would gladly do one in my sleep.
EA
__________________
..::Currently Down for Full Revamp::..
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Posted by dkle99 on 08-25-2003 06:55 PM:
Sounds like everyone on this forum is getting sued:
The following is the breakdown of lawsuits that will be filed in the party's respective regional municipal court:
1. Max sues FFP for bad install
2. FFP counter-sues Max for Libel
3. Max then sues my350z.com's moderators and their associates for Libel and Freedom of Speech
4. FFP also sues the my350z.com's members for Libel
5. My305z.com's members sue My350z.com for communistic & monopolistic practices
We are fast approaching the my350zOomday.
Good luck to all that will be sued and may the truth set us free!
Amen!
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Posted by Mike Wazowski on 08-25-2003 09:21 PM:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by raceboy
Well, I have been here longer than almost all of you and I think banning him was just ridiculous. I know this is a public site and the owners are free to ban whomever they wish, but this one just stinks. The reason why it stinks is that message boards are supposed to be primarily for the members, NOT THE VENDORS.
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This board IS for the members. The Vendors are here for the members. The board revolves around the members. If there weren't any member then there wouldn't be a point in having vendors.
quote:
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This board is obviously terrified of pissing off any of it's paying sponsors. If it could happen to FFP, it could happen to any of them, right? Well isn't that the purpose of a message board? So the members can communicate information with each other of where they got great service and where they got crap? Otherwise, what is the f***ing point? Since it is public, FFP can put their side of the story out for everyone to see and let the public decide. I don't need someone deciding for me. You can call it mudslinging or namecalling, but if what Max was saying was true, then he was totally justified.
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First of all, FFP isn't even a sponsor, nor were they ever, nor we they a potential sponsor. We do allow members to talk about their experiences; we don't censor that. We asked Max to stop because we didn't want to become involved since it was turning into a legal matter.
quote:
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Instead, to make sure the precious sponsorship money comes in, they ban one side, but not the vendor side??? Do you not smell what is wrong there??? If there were so many past problems with Max (seems like the moderators saying that should be libel), then where were his strikes?? Very stinky. So this site obviously no longer exists to serve the best interest of it's members. Just like government, it has grown so big, it just wants to serve the interest of it's constituants and damn the populace because they have no where else to go.
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We don't put sponsors before members. I am the ONLY one who takes care of all the sponsorship and business side. The moderator who has been dealing with this whole issue with MaxHax (Tim, tbcz) has nothing to do with the sponsors. He's just a moderator. The past problems were dealt with via PM. We let some of them slide because of the hard times he was having with his life. You make it sound as if we banned him instantly for talking bad about a vendor (who isn't even a sponsor). He was banned for not complying with moderators request even after he agreed to them. We didn't ban FFP because they didn't do anything wrong. I've always tried to make this place better for the members, even you know this Steve. I asked you in the past for your opinions on the site via PM because I was trying to do what the members wanted.
quote:
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You all have probably noticed I post here a lot less. Out of all the car boards I have ever been on, this is the most policed one I have ever seen, and I mean policed as in "POLICE STATE." It's just not fun here anymore and I really hope one of the other boards takes off, a board that is not owned by the vendors at the expense of the people that made it what it is.
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The reason why we "police" the forum is because we try to keep the content flowing, clean, and organized. This site isn't owned by the vendors, nor will it ever be. It's for the members and always will be.
Victor
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Posted by jesseenglish on 08-25-2003 09:29 PM:
Well just to let everyone know if you care, MaxHax does have internal engine damage. He's going to need to either get his engine rebuilt or buy a new engine which he is looking at doing.
__________________
Pikes Peak White Enthusiast
______________________________
ATI Procharger
Borla True Dual Exhaust
Alpine CDA-9815
Brown Bread
Diamond Plate Floor Mats
Insaneanime grounding kit
What was the best thing before sliced bread?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted by GaryK on 08-25-2003 09:40 PM:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by jesseenglish
Well just to let everyone know if you care, MaxHax does have internal engine damage. He's going to need to either get his engine rebuilt or buy a new engine which he is looking at doing.
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Well that blows, I'm sorry to hear that. So was it the rings? I know he's probably already financially drained because of this thing, but this would be the perfect opportunity to put some nice rods and low comp pistons in....then it would be ready for some real boost. I guess the real question is still, dare I say...how did it happen?
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Posted by Mike Wazowski on 08-25-2003 09:45 PM:
quote:
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Originally posted by infidsg35
ok you people are NUTZ.. Why cant a guy express himself?? If you dont want to hear it DONT READ IT!!..
I feel he was a very good source of info and just sharded his ups and downs every step of the way.. What more can you ask for!! Showed us what problems with the Zex kit and Ati he was having..
For the people who say he wouldnt stop come on WAKE up.. He stoped all the legal stuff and was asking real questions about rings and such.. He has a big problem with the Ati and his car is not running.. So what better to do then get advice from umm what 15,000 people on this forum that might of had a similar experiance with a car in the past that could help..
I see this as moderators on a powertrip and it is BS..
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We are not "NUTZ". This isn't about someone expressing themself. This is about complying with requests by moderators. We allow members to speak freely about their experiences all the time, but this was turning into a legal matter that we don't we to participate in. So we told Max and FFP to stop. Both agreed to stop. Apparantly Max ignored our request and his own words and kept on posting more threads about FFP.
quote:
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Thats all I will say b4 I get banned
Lets hope Max comes back with a diff name...
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We have never banned anyone for posting their opinion. So quit acting foolish.
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Posted by Mike Wazowski on 08-25-2003 09:54 PM:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by SlamMan
While at times I think this site is over managed I think if Max was asked repeatedly to keep a lid on the legal side of the subject he should have to face some sort of consequence. I personally never thought the things Max was saying should be censored. I did agree they should stop untill the situation was resolved. I would have like to see an extended suspension. But it sounds to me like it wasn't a snap decision.
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He was indeed asked repeatedly to stop, but did not. He was given 2 previous cooling down times.
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Posted by Mike Wazowski on 08-25-2003 09:57 PM:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by dahensta
I have been lurking this board for many months and have the utmost interest in this forum for only one purpose, forced induction options for the 350/G35 engine. Although I do not yet own a G35 coupe, the second that it becomes available with VPP pricing I'll be writing 2 checks. One to Infiniti and another to whoever makes the better supercharger.
Opinions are like A-holes, everyone's got one and they all STINK! Except your own of course. We all come from different angles here but there is one thing we can say with certainty. The issue between Max and FFP WILL GO TO COURT. That being said, one can also certainly state that the moderators of this forum will also get dragged into civil court as has been promised by MAX when he stated, "my wife cried and missed a day of work...now it is civil." It is called a SUBPOENA and it WILL get handed to you when two parties do not agree and lawyers want to hear from ALL PARTIES INVOLVED. That of course includes this forum by default, especially since FFP was not happy that this forum was being used as a means for "defamation."
I work in a profession where I get handed subpoenas more than I want. In fact in 2 days I have to go to superior court to testify to give my "expert opinion" on a case where I was not even involved with the two parties. Moderators, I support your decision for the obvious reasons above. I suspect that, were this NOT going to court, then they could be left to hash it out all they wanted here. In the final analysis, I would like to know the ultimate outcome of the court decision.
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That's exactly our reason, we don't want to become involved. Thanks for being one of the very few who understand our point of view.
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Posted by Mike Wazowski on 08-25-2003 10:10 PM:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by raceboy
This board is obviously terrified of pissing off any of it's paying sponsors. If it could happen to FFP, it could happen to any of them, right? Well isn't that the purpose of a message board? So the members can communicate information with each other of where they got great service and where they got crap? Otherwise, what is the f***ing point? Since it is public, FFP can put their side of the story out for everyone to see and let the public decide. I don't need someone deciding for me. You can call it mudslinging or namecalling, but if what Max was saying was true, then he was totally justified.
Instead, to make sure the precious sponsorship money comes in, they ban one side, but not the vendor side??? Do you not smell what is wrong there??? If there were so many past problems with Max (seems like the moderators saying that should be libel), then where were his strikes?? Very stinky. So this site obviously no longer exists to serve the best interest of it's members. Just like government, it has grown so big, it just wants to serve the interest of it's constituants and damn the populace because they have no where else to go.
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Another thing Steve, if we were really scared then why would we allow "Vendor Reviews", a place which members can express their opinions (praise, neutral, complaint) of "Paying Sponsor/Vendors". Look at the Crystal Guard review page, their is only 1 review and it is negative. Do I remove it since the company is owned by the head administrator? Nope, I leave it. Do I punish the author for posting a bad review? Nope. Look at the Gruppe-S review page. I posted a complaint about them even though they are the oldest sponsor.
Victor
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Posted by Mike Wazowski on 08-25-2003 10:15 PM:
quote:
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Originally posted by elektrik_juggernaut
I have a couple of concerns........ I noticed that others who are "skating on thin ice" are given the opportunity to change their ways through "the strike system", formerly known as the "yellow card, red card system"......correct me if i'm wrong, but i don't recall MaxHax having any official strikes on his profile.......if that is the standard method of enforcement for the masses, then i believe that method should have been employed in his case.....i understand that MaxHax may have received several PM's about this, but i still think he might have thought twice about his posts if he had 2 strikes under his name......to go from normal standing to "banned" status is a bit extreme, not to mention unfair......especially when compared to the previous infractions that warranted bans on others.
MaxHax did a lot for this community......he was one of the first to run nitrous, one of the first with the Crawford Plenum, and one of the first to get the Procharger installed.......he gave details about these mods, good and bad details.......he gave the truth, as he saw it......I think this ultimately helped people to decide if these mods were for them........he did the research that a lot of us were too afraid to do with our own cars.
If this site becomes the kind of place where people are only allowed to say good things about products and services, then it has ceased to be a source of information, and it has instead become one big elaborate commercial
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Yes, it should have been used in this case but we dealt with it via PMs.
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Posted by Mike Wazowski on 08-25-2003 10:17 PM:
Re: Re: Censorship: An Open Letter
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by rodH
my biggest issue is why are some companies allowed to be bashed on this site and others aren't?? the inconsistancy is what doesn't look good and like something shady is going on.
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show me when this has ever happened.
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Posted by Mike Wazowski on 08-25-2003 10:22 PM:
quote:
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Originally posted by Dr Bonz
Sorry, but you are incorrect. This is a PRIVATELY OWNED board and free speech does not apply here. You can run out on a PUBLIC street corner and yell whatever you want, and cry free speech all you want. This is not the case on a board on which you are a GUEST of the OWNER of the site.
I kind of liked Max. I really did. But if you have been around here as long as I have, you would have known of all of the OTHER threads in which Max's mouth (typing fingers) got him into trouble. I have seen every one. You guys who are saying that the mods were too quick to do what they did all seem to have pretty low post counts and may not have been here for the ENTIRE show. He had been given warning after warning and he never seemed to let up and that was just in the open threads! That is to say nothing of the numerous PM's I'm sure he got!
FFP has not said squat since both parties were warned. I'm certain that if they would have continued to spar with Max back and forth, they would have met the same fate.
I would like to have Max back at some point. His experiences are definitely valuable. It's just that there are ways to get your point across tactfully, effectively, and politely without resorting to slander (in this case libel), and name calling.
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Thanks Dr. for backing us up, you are one of the few who have actually seen what Max was up to. You are right, FFP would have been dealt with the same way, but they chose to comply.
Victor
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Posted by Mike Wazowski on 08-25-2003 10:26 PM:
quote:
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Originally posted by Wicked4u2c
Welcome to communism people...
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Communism my ***. Do you even know the meaning of communism?
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Posted by Mike Wazowski on 08-25-2003 10:38 PM:
quote:
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Originally posted by toykilla
why do u have to be tactfully and tricky to effectively make a point on this form?... why cant you just be blunt and state the facts without the fear of being banned?
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Use common sense, is that so hard? We don't make it hard to get points across here.
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Posted by Dr Bonz on 08-25-2003 10:53 PM:
Tact and "trickiness" are two completely different concepts. I never said anything about being "tricky" whatever that means.
You can still be BLUNT about something and still get your point across TACTFULLY. These words are not mutually exclusive.
On the other hand, you can be Blunt about something and at the same time be an A$$.
The former will allow you to post another day.
The latter will get you banned.
__________________
JUST ZAY-NO!
The Doctor is in.......a Brickyard Track 350Z.
NISMO Body Kit, CF Emblem Covers, Front "Z" Emblem, Brickyard Painted Engine Cover/Strut Brace, "Z" Oil Cap.
Pioneer XM Satellite Radio, Valentine One Radar Detection, The In-Z P.C. with Xenarc Screen, Windows XP Professional, GPS Navigation, DVD/MP3 Player, & TV Tuner
AEM Cold Air Intake, Z-Xtreme Grounding Kit, Borla True Dual Exhaust, & NOW....can you say "Procharger".....Sure, I knew you could!
Dr Bonz 350Z Gallery
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Posted by Mike Wazowski on 08-25-2003 11:09 PM:
quote:
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Originally posted by pimp1911
My 2cents. If he was warned and then continues to do wrong then the actions the mods took was justified. For example if you get pulled over for speeding and get a warning. And then speed again and get pulled over by the same cop. You are going down. Its business not personal folks. Look at the ads and you can figure that out. I personally wouldnt want to have a b*%%h session with a vendor or dealership over a forum. Go down to the place of business or call them and handle it off line. Max did enough by just putting the message out that he had problems. Then it got ugly.
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He was indeed warned many times.
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Posted by 2003z on 08-25-2003 11:24 PM:
I think the mods did a great job in this instance. After all, you are here to moderate, and remembering back to when this site was formed, it was because this same type of stuff was happening at zcar.com and we were tired of it.
__________________
19x8 +21 front, 19x10 +30 Rear ifoged RS Aero's w/ 245/35 & 275/35-19 S-03s
17x9 Enkei RPO-2j w/ 255/40 Kuhmo Victoracer V700 all around.
Techna-fit brake lines
Hawk HPS Pads
Injen CAI
Hyper Ground
Technosquare ECU upgrade
Cusco swaybars
Dynashield
1 coat of turtle wax
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Posted by Richard 350z on 08-24-2003 11:39 AM:
Censorship: An Open Letter
Dear 350Z Owners:
I disagree with the decision to ban MaxHax, as the moderator “tcbz” knows, since I PMed him before the decision was made. This is a forum for adults who can decide what to think for themselves. It is not like AOL, where I put on parental controls so my 13 year old daughter won’t look at inappropriate websites.
Max did us all a great service, at tremendous personal cost. He gave us a very negative review of his ATI procharger installation, when everyone else was gushing over it (except for that whine). It is almost the only FI system available, and we need all the information we can get.
At a minimum, FFP should also be banned, so they can’t use the forum without Max having a chance to answer. I suppose I risk being banned myself. I look forward to the dialog from my fellow 350Z enthusiasts.
Richard
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Posted by scubadj on 08-24-2003 11:53 AM:
I agree it should be a open forum, but with a certain amount of limitations.
Legal, I am not sure if Max can slaughter a company's name on a board or the internet without repercussion. Also, I would imagine if there was deflimation of character by a member, the board creator or modifier may also be drug into court.
So, I do belive that negative experiences as well as positive experiences are warranted on the board. Although, Max could have just explain the nuances he was having with the kit or parts, and not playing a he said, she said war on the board.
Guess I have mixed emotions. If I were in Max's shoes, I may have wanted to do the same to get back at my installer. But I also feel the moderators have the final call in what is best for the board, themselves, and it's future.
Chris
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Posted by tbcz on 08-24-2003 12:17 PM:
The site's position has been stated in the sticky post at the top of this forum, and you will not be banned for stating your opinion.
__________________
Tim - Charter member #2
Silver Enthusiast/6MT/Kickplates/Mats
Delivered 9/13/02
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Posted by RainmanZ on 08-24-2003 12:22 PM:
My Reply
To all interested parties.Please reread tcb's post below.
https://my350z.com/forum/showthr...6473#post416473
It is a very good summation of the staff's position at MY350Z. A difficult decision to say the least. Still necessary . Much is tolerated here and relatively litte is "Censored" .
Richard, I often read remarks such as yours: "I suppose I risk being banned myself." Usually by those seeking to be inflammatory. We have never Banned someone for an alternative opinion. Especially a post such as yours today. Please feel free to express your opinions. Just be careful how you articulate it. If you are so inclined, peruse the many thousands of posts here. I am sure you will find many which are borderline in some fashion. Yet they remain unaltered from their origional form.
We strive to promote this site.Not always perfectly , but always as consistently and fairly as possible.There will always be someone unhappy when a decision, such as the one with MaxHax , is made. But the majority of members appreciate the environment which we strive to maintain here.
Robert.
__________________
RainmanZ
Moderator
Charter Member 03
Silverstone Touring 6MT
Breakin is OVER....Drivin Her HARD...
Illegitimi Non Carborundum
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Posted by toykilla on 08-24-2003 12:27 PM:
i will agree with Richard on this one... what ever happened to free speech?.. all information should be readily available to the members of this site...censorship is for communist countries.... and i have once again failed to see the legitimate reasons behind the moderators actions on this site. ...
__________________
I shall behave myself.
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Posted by jesseenglish on 08-24-2003 12:45 PM:
The purpose of this forum is to discuss cars whether positive or negative. Name calling is a waste of my time and a waste of precious bandwidth. I've got a 56k modem and only connect at 26.2 When I click on a thread that's purported to be about the installation of a procharger supercharger, I expect it to be just that. Why should people have to weed through a bunch of crap posts to get to the real cause behind a problem.
Now whether or not MaxHax should be banned is not yours or my call. The moderators have no mandate where they're required to consult you with their reasons behind decisions made. Everyone is entitled their opinions, but personally I was sick and tired of hearing about the "He said this and he called me a dick" crap. Slanderous accusations have no place here.
Max is a good guy that got stuck in a bad situation. He was pissed off and vented his frustrations on a public board that were not conducive to an intelligent discussion, which while understandable are not needed on a "car" forum.
Moderators are here for people who can't moderate themselves. If you want to know my personal opinion... No I don't think Max should've been banned, maybe a cooling off period would've been warranted for both parties involved. Quite honestly though, I don't think that would have worked because some people don't like being told to STFU and they take it as a personal attack.
__________________
Pikes Peak White Enthusiast
______________________________
ATI Procharger
Borla True Dual Exhaust
Alpine CDA-9815
Brown Bread
Diamond Plate Floor Mats
Insaneanime grounding kit
What was the best thing before sliced bread?
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Posted by 350zSpeedRacer on 08-24-2003 01:46 PM:
As it has been stated already, MaxHax received more than his fair share of warnings about the topics in question. He continually turned away from those warnings, therefore it was with great reluctance that the decision was made to ban him.
He's had a "cooling off" period previously, and it in no way helped him realize how poorly he was handling the unfortunate situations he found himself in. The accusasions made may have been true, but then again, they could have been completely off grounds. We asked both parties to refrain from discussing the situation on this board until it was 100% decided what went wrong and who might have been at fault. MaxHax did not comply.
While we all have different opinions, however, there are proper ways to express these opinions and improper ones. In all honesty, I would like to know what the final outcome of the supercharger situation is--it's in everyone's best interests to know the final truth. However, that's not what was being continuously posted.
There's no need to go into the situation any further, as it will do no good. Please feel free to tell us your thoughts, just remember to please keep it respectful and mature.
__________________
Get blown.
Daytona Blue "Fairlady" Z Track
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Posted by r34 racer on 08-24-2003 02:05 PM:
What was the whole commotion about between maxhax and his ATi installer? I seemed to have missed the thread!
__________________
A proper racer always uses his turn signals.
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Posted by jesseenglish on 08-24-2003 02:07 PM:
consider yourself lucky.
__________________
Pikes Peak White Enthusiast
______________________________
ATI Procharger
Borla True Dual Exhaust
Alpine CDA-9815
Brown Bread
Diamond Plate Floor Mats
Insaneanime grounding kit
What was the best thing before sliced bread?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted by Richard 350z on 08-24-2003 02:11 PM:
To the Moderators
I have expressed my opinion about your decision to ban MaxHax, and was ready to let it go, so we can all get back to what is important here, the cars.
Except for one thing. Tbxz's post make the thinly veiled accusation that I am trying to be "imflammatory." I was not. The fact is that the First Amendment to the United States Constitution does applies only to government actions. The moderators of this board can ban whoever they want.
Richard.
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Posted by infidsg35 on 08-24-2003 02:48 PM:
ok you people are NUTZ.. Why cant a guy express himself?? If you dont want to hear it DONT READ IT!!..
I feel he was a very good source of info and just sharded his ups and downs every step of the way.. What more can you ask for!! Showed us what problems with the Zex kit and Ati he was having..
For the people who say he wouldnt stop come on WAKE up.. He stoped all the legal stuff and was asking real questions about rings and such.. He has a big problem with the Ati and his car is not running.. So what better to do then get advice from umm what 15,000 people on this forum that might of had a similar experiance with a car in the past that could help..
I see this as moderators on a powertrip and it is BS..
Thats all I will say b4 I get banned
Lets hope Max comes back with a diff name...
__________________
Infiniti G35 Coupe
Waiting on all mods..
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Posted by SlamMan on 08-24-2003 02:54 PM:
While at times I think this site is over managed I think if Max was asked repeatedly to keep a lid on the legal side of the subject he should have to face some sort of consequence. I personally never thought the things Max was saying should be censored. I did agree they should stop untill the situation was resolved. I would have like to see an extended suspension. But it sounds to me like it wasn't a snap decision.
__________________
[romey] Out! [/romey]
You like it, don't you.
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Posted by dahensta on 08-24-2003 03:10 PM:
I have been lurking this board for many months and have the utmost interest in this forum for only one purpose, forced induction options for the 350/G35 engine. Although I do not yet own a G35 coupe, the second that it becomes available with VPP pricing I'll be writing 2 checks. One to Infiniti and another to whoever makes the better supercharger.
Opinions are like A-holes, everyone's got one and they all STINK! Except your own of course. We all come from different angles here but there is one thing we can say with certainty. The issue between Max and FFP WILL GO TO COURT. That being said, one can also certainly state that the moderators of this forum will also get dragged into civil court as has been promised by MAX when he stated, "my wife cried and missed a day of work...now it is civil." It is called a SUBPOENA and it WILL get handed to you when two parties do not agree and lawyers want to hear from ALL PARTIES INVOLVED. That of course includes this forum by default, especially since FFP was not happy that this forum was being used as a means for "defamation."
I work in a profession where I get handed subpoenas more than I want. In fact in 2 days I have to go to superior court to testify to give my "expert opinion" on a case where I was not even involved with the two parties. Moderators, I support your decision for the obvious reasons above. I suspect that, were this NOT going to court, then they could be left to hash it out all they wanted here. In the final analysis, I would like to know the ultimate outcome of the court decision.
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Posted by Wicked4u2c on 08-24-2003 03:47 PM:
I thought this forum was about Engine/Drivetrain/Forced Induction?
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Posted by whosdady on 08-24-2003 04:14 PM:
Max will be missed. He added a great deal to this forum IMHO. I PM'ed him multiple times and he always aswered quickly and honestly.
I agree his posts about FFP were a little extreme at times but that was just Max. He was the trend setter. He was one of the first to order the procharger and shared his experience the way he saw it. If someone else had a similar experience I would like to know about it. I personally read most all of his threads. It kind of bothers me that others are saying they didn't like to read about FFP or that they were sick of hearing about FFP. If that is the case, don't read his posts.
I agree that there should be a cooling period for Max. But I think it should only be for a short period. Perhaps until his car is fixed? Am I the only one who would like to see the outcome of this situation?
Put yourself in his shoes. He is into that car nearly $50K and now it wont run. Wouldn't you do everything you could to get it fixed. I agree the slanderous remarks were uncalled for but they came from both sides. Banning one and not the other is not fair.
__________________
ATI+Crawford=
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Posted by wren57 on 08-24-2003 04:55 PM:
Max was a leader, he ventured into territory other people didn't dare. That is who he is. He wrote SO many reviews on everything he bought, answered all questions, helped hundreds if not thousands of people. So he had a bad shop experience, and he posted about it. He was trying to warn people to not go to that shop, and obviously the shop isn't going to admit to using a coke bottle in the installation as word of that would spread and put them out of business, but why would Max lie? He helped people, was brutally honest, and will be missed. Please from now on Mods look at all of the POSITIVE things people contribute to the board instead of focusing on the negative. Thanks.
__________________
Performance 350z 6mt
Redline with Custom Black/Red Leather
Kenwood kdc-mpv619
(4) Infinity Kappa Perfect 6.1
JL Audio 300/4
(2) Infinity Perfect 10.1d
Rockford Fosgate 700s
Fatmat
20% Tint
Circle Earthing Kit
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Posted by tbcz on 08-24-2003 05:42 PM:
I'd like to make a few points, then I'll shut up. I tried to be clear in my explanation post that this latest incident was not the only, or even the main reason why Max was banned. There have been issues in the past that have contributed to this. If you were to take these actions separately and divide them up among several members, it is likely that no one would be banned. You have to realize the cumulative effect repeated infractions are going to have. The moderators do not go out of their way to ban anyone. You usually have to try pretty damn hard over a period of time to get the attention that Max has.
Also, many have mentioned the idea of a cooling off period. This is exactly what we asked the participants to voluntarily enforce several days ago. Max could not accept that. Then, we had to more strongly demand that this subject take a rest. Again, no compliance. Still, this in and of itself is not enough to warrant a ban. But added to similar cycles of trouble in the past, at some point we have to say enough is enough.
Others have stated that there should be a complimetary ban on FFP. Malarkey. FFP has willingly complied with our request to leave it alone for now. And again, even if they hadn't, this situation alone is not enough to warrant a ban. If they had a past history of problems, conducted themselves on and off the forums improperly, and refused to comply with our request to lay off this latest subject for now, then maybe they would have been banned as well.
Others have brought up the possible legal issues involved. While I personally don't see the site or its staff being in a vulnerable position legally, it does make me wonder...is this really what the forum is for? Is this mudslinging best serving the majority of our members? Is this really what people are coming here to read? Now of course these are judgement calls, and by defination are going differ from individual to individual. All I can say is that what the staff worries about most is how to keep the forum running as the most effective and enjoyable resource possible...that's it. If we do this, more members will join in the discussion, and more members will join the site. Both of these outcomes lead to a better forum, and better info in it.
__________________
Tim - Charter member #2
Silver Enthusiast/6MT/Kickplates/Mats
Delivered 9/13/02
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Posted by whosdady on 08-24-2003 06:01 PM:
I would be interested to know more about the "cumulative effect" in whcih you speak of. For those of us who are unaware, please share the other contributory factors. I am assuming there is much more than his dealings with FFP that has placed him in this situation with the forum?
__________________
ATI+Crawford=
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Posted by toykilla on 08-24-2003 06:22 PM:
what do you expect to achieve by banning him??
__________________
I shall behave myself.
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Posted by cmuro on 08-24-2003 06:24 PM:
I don't post that much on this forum or any forum for that matter but this is just ridiculous. First off this is a public forum and free speach does apply to this forum and any site on the Internet. There should be a disclaimer with this forum and all other forums about the opinions and comments of its members and how it is NOT the opinions of the forum's owners or moderators. Second FFP nor Max are sponsors of this site but when other memebers make negative comments about a sponsor they don't get banned. There are threads about how people are going to sue Nissan for the problems with their cars or how this vendor which is a sponsor screwed them. None of these threads gets deleted nor does the member making the comments get banned. Third there have been many threads with some topics and comments that are not car related and some have had links to **** sites. Now why these are allowed and this one isn't completely confuses me. Fourth Max didn't have a problem expressing his opinion but what he did have to say was both interesting and informative. If you or someone else didn't think so then DON"T read it or move past the reply. To me it seems that either the moderators have a relationship (personal or political) with FFP or ATI, and that this forum is only allowed to have what they want discussed. I don't know any of these moderators or who owns the forum but I must say it seems to me that it is being run by children lately. Too bad this forum was unable to help Max with his car and to find out exactly what went wrong with this install. If my comments have not been politically corect or within the constraints the moderators have put on this forum then I apoligize...actually I don't because I believe in free speach. Maybe the moderators should start looking at what this forum is starting to turn into.
Just my politically incorrect comments.
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Posted by toykilla on 08-24-2003 06:25 PM:
another note.... because of the way things are run these days.. the only option max may have had to get things straightened out with the installers is slander their name.. it was apparent they didnt want to help him out ...they got their money and walked away.. that deserves some slandering IMO
__________________
I shall behave myself.
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Posted by elektrik_juggernaut on 08-24-2003 06:42 PM:
I have a couple of concerns........ I noticed that others who are "skating on thin ice" are given the opportunity to change their ways through "the strike system", formerly known as the "yellow card, red card system"......correct me if i'm wrong, but i don't recall MaxHax having any official strikes on his profile.......if that is the standard method of enforcement for the masses, then i believe that method should have been employed in his case.....i understand that MaxHax may have received several PM's about this, but i still think he might have thought twice about his posts if he had 2 strikes under his name......to go from normal standing to "banned" status is a bit extreme, not to mention unfair......especially when compared to the previous infractions that warranted bans on others.
MaxHax did a lot for this community......he was one of the first to run nitrous, one of the first with the Crawford Plenum, and one of the first to get the Procharger installed.......he gave details about these mods, good and bad details.......he gave the truth, as he saw it......I think this ultimately helped people to decide if these mods were for them........he did the research that a lot of us were too afraid to do with our own cars.
If this site becomes the kind of place where people are only allowed to say good things about products and services, then it has ceased to be a source of information, and it has instead become one big elaborate commercial
__________________
Chrome Silver Performance 6MT
Procharger from Mike @ Altered Atmosphere
Install by Dave @ Black Magic Racing
Prior to Procharger:
13.64@103.28mph
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Posted by rodH on 08-24-2003 06:54 PM:
Re: Censorship: An Open Letter
my biggest issue is why are some companies allowed to be bashed on this site and others aren't?? the inconsistancy is what doesn't look good and like something shady is going on.
quote:
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Originally posted by Richard 350z
Dear 350Z Owners:
I disagree with the decision to ban MaxHax, as the moderator “tcbz” knows, since I PMed him before the decision was made. This is a forum for adults who can decide what to think for themselves. It is not like AOL, where I put on parental controls so my 13 year old daughter won’t look at inappropriate websites.
Max did us all a great service, at tremendous personal cost. He gave us a very negative review of his ATI procharger installation, when everyone else was gushing over it (except for that whine). It is almost the only FI system available, and we need all the information we can get.
At a minimum, FFP should also be banned, so they can’t use the forum without Max having a chance to answer. I suppose I risk being banned myself. I look forward to the dialog from my fellow 350Z enthusiasts.
Richard
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__________________
2003 Z--CS touring--6spd--blk leather--splash guards.
iForged 19" Aero (without bolts/rivots) on Toyo T1-S
3m clear bra
S2000 antenna
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Posted by Mikestro on 08-24-2003 07:06 PM:
Not to stir up the hornets nest, but there are many other internet forums discussing the 350Z. That is the best way you can show your concern, by voting with your mouse. 350ZFrenzy and 350ZMotoring are two that pop into mind. I would love to see one of them rise to the level of this site. There are very bright advisors and moderators there that don't seem to be "trigger happy" with the ban button.
I got a strike for a crappy reason, so I am more than a little biased at this point..... but I guess if I've learned anything in the last 30 years is that everyone has an agenda.
__________________
2003 CS Touring
Mods:
Simpson's Sun Deflector
Map Pocket
Infiniti Basslink
Infiniti 6001s
RF 250W Amp
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Posted by Z350Maniac on 08-24-2003 07:31 PM:
I like many others do not post often as I'm still learning and absorbing the info I will need in order to assist others with questions (crawl before you can walk sort of thing). Max was one of the first members that stood out as a leader of the performance Z community that is nested within these boards. I've heard/read/seen NOTHING but GOOD from Max in the last 7 months since I have been reading/posting on these boards. His car was one I saw as remarkable with all of the work and guinea-pigging he had done to it. I respected his opinion as he had done so much and was looked to as a leader in the art of getting his Z to perform better.
I PMed TBCZ with ym concerns over Max's banning once I saw his stickied thread this morning. I explained my concerns and was looking for further insight as to this decision. I was given similar answers that were posted on this thread. However vague they were they obviously made a decision based upon sound reasons. Of which I, along with the others who are less informed, would like to know what the extenuating circumstances were that led to this decision. I agree with EJ completely in that I had noticed that Max was not on the 'warning' system. It seemed like he had triggered a 'soft spot' with the mod team or the site in general and was 'banished' on the spot because of this.
To coat the reasoning with the fact that he wouldn't have been banned because of this recent reason alone is a bit of a stretch. Had it been something else he wouldn't have been banned, it was because of this development and his installer that he got banned.
I may not agree with or like the mod's decision, but like ANY other forum, I have little say and have to accept their decision. And like everyone else is saying "if you don't like what he posted then don't read" well that can be turned around and be stated like this:
"if you don't like the mods decision then don't come to the forums."
so it's a two way street we all walk.
to make things simple:
Would I like to see Max back?
HELL YES and without a doubt.
Did he deserve to be banned?
There are alternatives. I run a message forum myself and have the 'troublesome' users that I allow to view the boards and check and make PMs. I think this would suit Max well.
Should FFP get similar treatment?
Yes and No. This is one of those mixed situations where you scold one person but let the other go. You are basing your decision upon the whole thing going to court and that is one of the reasons Max was banned. Well FFP is a part of this legal action and should in effect be banned as well as they're connected in this matter and directly affected the decision for Max to be banned (I am SURE they said something to the degree of which my350z.com would be involved in the legal matters of this issue if Max were to be allowed to continue with his remarks and thus giving the mods little choice but to abide by FFP's request. I've seen this TOO many times on TOO many boards, but in almost all instances BOTH parties are banned until the matter is resolved.)
Do I agree with the mod's decision?
Not really, but that's life and whether I like it's going to happen.
Am I trying to be inflammatory or unruly towards the mos because of this?
No. How would that help the situation besides making it worse.
I hope to see Max back and soon with a completely fixed kit and a renewed ferver for the Z and it's performance. I'd like for those who think down on Max for his 'behavior' the last 2 weeks to take a moment and think to themselves this:
Had this very thing happened to you. Had you spent over $8K on this S/C and it's install. Had you dumped 2 months of your time in this effort. Had you done ALL of this and gotten this result, HOW WOULD YOU have acted or wanted to act?
You'll find that he wasn't very far off base with what most if not ALL of us would have done given his circumstance.
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Posted by infidsg35 on 08-24-2003 08:23 PM:
BRING BACK MAX!!!!!
__________________
Infiniti G35 Coupe
Waiting on all mods..
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Posted by Dr Bonz on 08-24-2003 08:46 PM:
quote:
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First off this is a public forum and free speach does apply to this forum and any site on the Internet.
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Sorry, but you are incorrect. This is a PRIVATELY OWNED board and free speech does not apply here. You can run out on a PUBLIC street corner and yell whatever you want, and cry free speech all you want. This is not the case on a board on which you are a GUEST of the OWNER of the site.
I kind of liked Max. I really did. But if you have been around here as long as I have, you would have known of all of the OTHER threads in which Max's mouth (typing fingers) got him into trouble. I have seen every one. You guys who are saying that the mods were too quick to do what they did all seem to have pretty low post counts and may not have been here for the ENTIRE show. He had been given warning after warning and he never seemed to let up and that was just in the open threads! That is to say nothing of the numerous PM's I'm sure he got!
FFP has not said squat since both parties were warned. I'm certain that if they would have continued to spar with Max back and forth, they would have met the same fate.
I would like to have Max back at some point. His experiences are definitely valuable. It's just that there are ways to get your point across tactfully, effectively, and politely without resorting to slander (in this case libel), and name calling.
__________________
JUST ZAY-NO!
The Doctor is in.......a Brickyard Track 350Z.
NISMO Body Kit, CF Emblem Covers, Front "Z" Emblem, Brickyard Painted Engine Cover/Strut Brace, "Z" Oil Cap.
Pioneer XM Satellite Radio, Valentine One Radar Detection, The In-Z P.C. with Xenarc Screen, Windows XP Professional, GPS Navigation, DVD/MP3 Player, & TV Tuner
AEM Cold Air Intake, Z-Xtreme Grounding Kit, Borla True Dual Exhaust, & NOW....can you say "Procharger".....Sure, I knew you could!
Dr Bonz 350Z Gallery
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Posted by Richard 350z on 08-24-2003 09:06 PM:
To Dr. Bonz
Bonz:
I very much appreciate all of your posts, the procharger videos, and your sharing of your knowledge.
However, I resent the attitude of your post on this thread, which boils down to: "I have been here longer than you newbies, so your opinions don't count as much as mine." I own a 350Z too, and want all the information I can get before I shell out $6,000 for parts, installation and tuning, on something that might fry my engine.
You are a great contributor to this forum, and so was Max. You had a good experience with the procharger, and he didn't. This website is a profit making venture for someone, as it carries advertising. I don't have a problem with the profit motive, it is the American way, and brought us this very useful forum, albeit with overly zealous moderators.
You are right about one thing: The Free Speech Clause of the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution does NOT apply here. This is a private forum. The first amendment protects us from government action to squelch free speech only.
Keep up the good work on your 350Z, and please continue your informative posts and videos.
Richard
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Posted by rouxeny on 08-24-2003 09:07 PM:
There are some situations in which it is immediately apparent to the mods that somebody needs to be banned. Obvious trolling or violating one of the basic rules (racism, sexism, ****....) would be some examples.
Banning Max was NOT an on the spot decision. Yes, it would have been nice for him to have been allowed a cooling off period. He got that. However, it would have been better if he had actually USED that opportunity to cool off. The mods knew this decision would be somewhat controversial and weeks of discussion have been held prior to this action. Suffice it to say that Max had been contacted multiple times and he had decided not to listen.
As Bonz said, this is not a public forum. It is owned by one person. If that person doesn't agree with what you say, it's his prerogative to remove you. Now, this line is very wide and unless one of the above basic rules is violated, it is actually fairly difficult to get banned. Then, there are the people that get banned and magically return after somehow reforming themselves.
I, along with many people, appreciated that Max was on the cutting edge of Z modifications. I did not like how he brought his private fight onto this board and I am still convinced that his side of the story is not 100% representative of the truth.
As to the concern that complaints about site sponsors will result in punitive action, the mods have given significant thought to this. There is no "agenda" and there is no relationship with ATI or the installer that Max was having issues with. Personally, I don't know the majority of our site sponsors and I have only purchased anything from maybe one of them. If somebody has a legitimate concern about any of them, I'm more than glad to hear it. I will allow the other mods to speak for themselves but I'm pretty much sure they would have similar sentiments. The sponsors should not be and are not protected from criticism in any way. However, as with the Max discussion, I think those kinds of arguments should be handled in private and not on this forum, especially if legal action is potentially pending.
__________________
Andrew
CS Touring 6MT
Student at Dr. Bonz's Zaino Academy
"Learn from the best, outshine the rest!"
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Posted by rouxeny on 08-24-2003 09:11 PM:
Wrong. Bonz's point is that he has been on this board for longer than many people and has better perspective as to why Max was banned. There are threads which some newer members may not have been able to read which contributed to this decision.
Bonz has also seen more people get banned and probably has a better idea of what it takes for somebody to receive that. To many of the newer members, I'm sure that many of the mod's actions seem to be completely arbitrary. They are not.
__________________
Andrew
CS Touring 6MT
Student at Dr. Bonz's Zaino Academy
"Learn from the best, outshine the rest!"
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Posted by jak on 08-24-2003 09:18 PM:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Dr Bonz
Sorry, but you are incorrect. This is a PRIVATELY OWNED board and free speech does not apply here. You can run out on a PUBLIC street corner and yell whatever you want, and cry free speech all you want. This is not the case on a board on which you are a GUEST of the OWNER of the site.
I kind of liked Max. I really did. But if you have been around here as long as I have, you would have known of all of the OTHER threads in which Max's mouth (typing fingers) got him into trouble. I have seen every one. You guys who are saying that the mods were too quick to do what they did all seem to have pretty low post counts and may not have been here for the ENTIRE show. He had been given warning after warning and he never seemed to let up and that was just in the open threads! That is to say nothing of the numerous PM's I'm sure he got!
FFP has not said squat since both parties were warned. I'm certain that if they would have continued to spar with Max back and forth, they would have met the same fate.
I would like to have Max back at some point. His experiences are definitely valuable. It's just that there are ways to get your point across tactfully, effectively, and politely without resorting to slander (in this case libel), and name calling.
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I may have missed the whole show, but if there WAS a show than he should have been on the strike program like everyone else.
I found Max's threads very informative because he was willing to tell the brutal truth. I belong to this forum to get SOLID INFORMATION about my car.
If you are saying that public forums owned by others should be allowed to censor and promote hidden agendas about products and advice of their own choosing, then what's the point of an open forum? It then becomes nothing more than an infomercial.
I joined this site for information. Not a sales pitch. That is what Max and people like Max provide.
Jeff
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Posted by Wicked4u2c on 08-24-2003 09:22 PM:
Welcome to communism people...
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Posted by nigevellie on 08-24-2003 09:34 PM:
who cares? it's done. move on. it's not your decision. it's not called www.freespeechandmy350z.com. let's stick to talking about cars, ladies and gentlemen. no need to start a pissing contest or start flexing imaginary internet muscles.
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Posted by GaryK on 08-24-2003 09:35 PM:
Well, I may as well add my 2 cents. I don't really agree with the process through which Max was banned, but I also don't pretend to know all the facts. I do know that Max adds value to the community. I also know that he was often too quick to post negative information, at least in my opinion. Personally, I wouldn't handle his situation the way he did with regard to the forum. But that doesn't necessarily mean I think he is wrong in any way, he justs does things differently.
Maybe I missed something, but I thought he had dropped the whole thing other than asking questions to help get his problems solved. However, in the end this website and forum is privately owned, and if the owners and/or their representatives(mods) wish to ban someone, that is their prerogative. If you don't like it, there are other 350z boards as has already been mentioned.
__________________
GaryK
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Posted by rouxeny on 08-24-2003 09:37 PM:
Um, wicked, this is DEFINITELY not an example of communism. I've always considered internet forums more like totalitarian governments. Essentially, one person, or the people that he elects, run the forum. It's more of a social contract and more liberal than I suggest above, but it's just an analogy.
As the above post says, it's done. I hope the forum can move on and find something new Z related to talk about.
__________________
Andrew
CS Touring 6MT
Student at Dr. Bonz's Zaino Academy
"Learn from the best, outshine the rest!"
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Posted by Wicked4u2c on 08-24-2003 09:38 PM:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by nigevellie
who cares? it's done. move on. it's not your decision. it's not called www.freespeechandmy350z.com. let's stick to talking about cars, ladies and gentlemen. no need to start a pissing contest or start flexing imaginary internet muscles.
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My point exact! I have never seen so much drama in a message board in my life. Its funny how the mods even post in this thread "Look guys we Banned Max"... I know Max he actually bought parts from me and is a great guy. Their are reasons for everything but the mods/owners of this site are like promoting his dismissal like its something to be proud of. I come here to learn about cars.. Take this to the general thread MODS!!
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Posted by Dr Bonz on 08-24-2003 09:46 PM:
quote:
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Welcome to communism people
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That statement Wicked, is so ridiculous that I will not grace it with any further comment, other than this: I don't know the extent of your education in the field of economics, politics, or sociology but that statement shows that it is obviously lacking. Read up a little on the term "communism" before you try and use it please.
Rouxeny stated my next thought perfectly. I do not mean to come off as "I am more right than you because I have been here longer" at all. What I meant was, that when you ARE someplace for a long time, you tend to pick up on things that have happened at that place a lot better than those who are new. I have "seen it all" as one of the original charter members here and I think in light of that fact, I have a little better perspective, as does Tim.
quote:
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I may have missed the whole show, but if there WAS a show than he should have been on the strike program like everyone else.
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Trust me, he was on the "strike program" long before there WAS a strike program.
__________________
JUST ZAY-NO!
The Doctor is in.......a Brickyard Track 350Z.
NISMO Body Kit, CF Emblem Covers, Front "Z" Emblem, Brickyard Painted Engine Cover/Strut Brace, "Z" Oil Cap.
Pioneer XM Satellite Radio, Valentine One Radar Detection, The In-Z P.C. with Xenarc Screen, Windows XP Professional, GPS Navigation, DVD/MP3 Player, & TV Tuner
AEM Cold Air Intake, Z-Xtreme Grounding Kit, Borla True Dual Exhaust, & NOW....can you say "Procharger".....Sure, I knew you could!
Dr Bonz 350Z Gallery
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Posted by Wicked4u2c on 08-24-2003 09:47 PM:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Dr Bonz
That statement Wicked, is so ridiculous that I will not grace it with any further comment, other than this: I don't know the extent of your education in the field of economics, politics, or sociology but that statement shows that it is obviously lacking. Read up a little on the term "communism" before you try and use it please.
Rouxeny stated my next thought perfectly. I do not mean to come off as "I am more right than you because I have been here longer" at all. What I meant was, that when you ARE someplace for a long time, you tend to pick up on things that have happened at that place a lot better than those who are new. I have "seen it all" as one of the original charter members here and I think in light of that fact, I have a little better perspective, as does Tim.
Trust me, he was on the "strike program" long before there WAS a strike program.
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Posted by Wicked4u2c on 08-24-2003 09:47 PM:
HAHA LOL Sorry dude, I was only Joking around because my friend and I always ******** about communism and he told me to post that... Loosen up a bit bonzy dont take everything so serious...
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Dr Bonz
That statement Wicked, is so ridiculous that I will not grace it with any further comment, other than this: I don't know the extent of your education in the field of economics, politics, or sociology but that statement shows that it is obviously lacking. Read up a little on the term "communism" before you try and use it please.
Rouxeny stated my next thought perfectly. I do not mean to come off as "I am more right than you because I have been here longer" at all. What I meant was, that when you ARE someplace for a long time, you tend to pick up on things that have happened at that place a lot better than those who are new. I have "seen it all" as one of the original charter members here and I think in light of that fact, I have a little better perspective, as does Tim.
Trust me, he was on the "strike program" long before there WAS a strike program.
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Posted by Rama on 08-24-2003 09:48 PM:
I see an agenda, not to get the website in the middle of a legal dispute. Everyone know MaxHax was the ATI guinea pig and was very iformative and brutally honest we all appreciated that. However it got out of hand. and it was asked to be not discussed until resolution was reached that didn't happen boom banned. If he really wanted to discuss on the net then he should get his own site since this one wanted the discussion stopped until resolution was reach then tell the story. If you did notice the thread that he started with the ATI stopped being informative and started becoming like a chat room with high school kids with both parties. Then it was closed then he opened a couple of other threads that got closed FFP responded to two of the those threads but didn't open any new threads concerning the issue. We all want to know how this turns out but sometimes discretion is needed. Hopefully we can get him back at some time and this ban is temporary. I see both sides of this Max was pissed and wanted the world to know. Honestly if the mudslinging wasnot going on I am sure their would be a discussion still going on about this.But basically it is what it is right now and hoepfully after this is resolved he can come back. Believe me I like everyone else was studying that thread on the procharger then **** hit the fan and it went south
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Posted by raceboy on 08-24-2003 10:26 PM:
Well, I have been here longer than almost all of you and I think banning him was just ridiculous. I know this is a public site and the owners are free to ban whomever they wish, but this one just stinks. The reason why it stinks is that message boards are supposed to be primarily for the members, NOT THE VENDORS.
This board is obviously terrified of pissing off any of it's paying sponsors. If it could happen to FFP, it could happen to any of them, right? Well isn't that the purpose of a message board? So the members can communicate information with each other of where they got great service and where they got crap? Otherwise, what is the f***ing point? Since it is public, FFP can put their side of the story out for everyone to see and let the public decide. I don't need someone deciding for me. You can call it mudslinging or namecalling, but if what Max was saying was true, then he was totally justified.
Instead, to make sure the precious sponsorship money comes in, they ban one side, but not the vendor side??? Do you not smell what is wrong there??? If there were so many past problems with Max (seems like the moderators saying that should be libel), then where were his strikes?? Very stinky. So this site obviously no longer exists to serve the best interest of it's members. Just like government, it has grown so big, it just wants to serve the interest of it's constituants and damn the populace because they have no where else to go.
You all have probably noticed I post here a lot less. Out of all the car boards I have ever been on, this is the most policed one I have ever seen, and I mean policed as in "POLICE STATE." It's just not fun here anymore and I really hope one of the other boards takes off, a board that is not owned by the vendors at the expense of the people that made it what it is.
__________________
Steve Kaufman
"Remember, you can't spell Civic Type R without R-I-C-E!"
Black 350 Track, everything but Navi and Rear Splash Guards. Delivered 8/20/02
--Nismo S-Tune Suspension with Sway Bars (soon to be Moton Club Sport hopefully)
--Borla Exhaust-True Dual
--Crawford Intake Plenum
--Crawford STB
--Carbotech Panther Brake Pads
--Stoptech steel braided brake lines
--Valvoline Syntec Brake Fluid
--Redline Oil
--12lb Dynabat battery
--Grounding Kit
--AEM Polished CAI
--S03 Pole Positions 255/40/18 Rear and 245/40/18 Front
--Alpine/Infinity Sound sytem with Basslink Sub
--Enkei RPF1 race wheels. 17"X8.5"F, 17"X9.5"R with shaved Toyo RA-1 "R" compound tires size 255F and 275R.
Coming soon:
--Cams (haven't decided which ones yet)
--Crawford Headers
--Wright Tuning Race Anti Roll Bars
That's me, #71
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Posted by little_rod on 08-24-2003 10:28 PM:
Well, I haven't been around for all of the "show", and I can say that history would have a huge effect on the situation. I have communicated with Max on several occasions, and of course, he is a good guy.
One thing is for sure, don't know, and probably will never know the whole situation. I don't live in Cali, but do you think if I did, I would take my car to FFP??? lol, no.
Better yet, all I would know about the ATI unit is great things if it wasn't for Max's situation. Am I better off for knowing??? lol, yes, that is what the internet is for, the good and the bad.
And I will say something rodH left unsaid, is it OK to dog iforged while we ban people for FFP??? Nope, good and bad about both would be nice, same with ATI.
I wish Max would have used moderation. But if the Greddy kit comes out, and someone has a bad experience and dogs them on this board endlessly, are they banned??? Who knows.
I have a situation that has upset me with my car and I have thought about posting my thoughts. IF the company I go after protests my posts, will I be banned too??
Just some thoughts.
__________________
Rodney
SB 350Z Enthusiast - 6 spd - splash guards
Aero package with rear diffusers
19" iforged aeros - rodH & 2003z specials
Toyo T1-S Proxes
Hawk HPS brake pads
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Posted by rouxeny on 08-24-2003 10:44 PM:
Yes, we do not want to **** off any of the vendors. That is why each vendor gets a whole forum, and the members have the specific ability to post complaints or negative reviews.
Check them out, there have been a few negative reviews already. I also remember many harsh comments about say, IForged (as an example) posted in the past.
FFP has not been banned because they have made a total of 18 posts on this entire board, of which only some were in regards to this issue. They are also in the "cooling off period" and unlike Max, have respected it. Nobody is asking Max to stop pursuing a solution to his problem. I would just like to see him do it elsewhere. If FFP were to have had posted multiple threads in similar fashion, they would have likely been banned also.
This idea of protecting the vendors is patently ridiculous. I have absolutely no stake in any of them, or in this site, other than as a source of information.
The idea that the board is no longer serving the populace is also crazy. Keep in mind that the moderators are also fellow Z enthusiasts and are all trying to keep this site from the process of entropy. A few months ago, the feeling on this board was that the moderators had abandoned the site and that trolls were taking over. The middle ground is obviously difficult to find.
__________________
Andrew
CS Touring 6MT
Student at Dr. Bonz's Zaino Academy
"Learn from the best, outshine the rest!"
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Posted by infidsg35 on 08-24-2003 11:00 PM:
Moderators are "protecting this forum" umm BS look what you guys did there is more talk about him now then he ever made.. And guess what its not about parts, fixes, HP numbers.. So now what are you guys going to do?? Bann everyone who replys to these topics.. You guys try to do good and it blew up good job.
__________________
Infiniti G35 Coupe
Waiting on all mods..
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Posted by toykilla on 08-24-2003 11:03 PM:
quote:
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Originally posted by Dr Bonz
Sorry, but you are incorrect. This is a PRIVATELY OWNED board and free speech does not apply here. You can run out on a PUBLIC street corner and yell whatever you want, and cry free speech all you want. This is not the case on a board on which you are a GUEST of the OWNER of the site.
I kind of liked Max. I really did. But if you have been around here as long as I have, you would have known of all of the OTHER threads in which Max's mouth (typing fingers) got him into trouble. I have seen every one. You guys who are saying that the mods were too quick to do what they did all seem to have pretty low post counts and may not have been here for the ENTIRE show. He had been given warning after warning and he never seemed to let up and that was just in the open threads! That is to say nothing of the numerous PM's I'm sure he got!
FFP has not said squat since both parties were warned. I'm certain that if they would have continued to spar with Max back and forth, they would have met the same fate.
I would like to have Max back at some point. His experiences are definitely valuable. It's just that there are ways to get your point across tactfully, effectively, and politely without resorting to slander (in this case libel), and name calling.
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why do u have to be tactfully and tricky to effectively make a point on this form?... why cant you just be blunt and state the facts without the fear of being banned?
__________________
I shall behave myself.
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Posted by little_rod on 08-24-2003 11:05 PM:
LOL, infidsg35, a bit harsh aren't you?? True Max style, lol. Dude, this is a bad situation, and the mods did the best they could do with it. I know I would hate to be in there position.
BTW, I have been on more moderated boards, by far.
__________________
Rodney
SB 350Z Enthusiast - 6 spd - splash guards
Aero package with rear diffusers
19" iforged aeros - rodH & 2003z specials
Toyo T1-S Proxes
Hawk HPS brake pads
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Posted by toykilla on 08-24-2003 11:06 PM:
quote:
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Originally posted by Wicked4u2c
Welcome to communism people...
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ive been saying this for months.. no one is realizing this yet
__________________
I shall behave myself.
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Posted by Jspec350z on 08-24-2003 11:06 PM:
Free MAX!!!!!!!! Er unban him!! He was an asset to this site. He may have been quick on the trigger but at least he was real. I for one an deeply sadden by this banning. I think it is BULLSH**, but like has been said before there are alot of 350z forums. Most of which are much faster than this one. I just wish people would relize that and move on. But than again Mods come to your senses and unban him!!!
__________________
2003 Daytona Blue 350Z Touring
Charcoal Leather
6sp MT
Back on the Stock 18's
Mods so far:
-winter wheels--Voxx Forza 17x8 W/Pirelli Wintersport 210 245/50/17
-Injen CAI Blue sitting in the box!!
-Zex Wet Kit in the mail!! Electric Blue Bottle !!!
Pictures of my Z
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Posted by toykilla on 08-24-2003 11:08 PM:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by nigevellie
who cares? it's done. move on. it's not your decision. it's not called www.freespeechandmy350z.com. let's stick to talking about cars, ladies and gentlemen. no need to start a pissing contest or start flexing imaginary internet muscles.
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who cares?? wtf?? if people dont stand up now to the almighty mods of this site.. it will happen again.. and again.. and again.
__________________
I shall behave myself.
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Posted by infidsg35 on 08-24-2003 11:11 PM:
Guess what I just put a "Free Max" sticker on my coupe and it added 12 RWHP and 14 Lbs of Toq..
__________________
Infiniti G35 Coupe
Waiting on all mods..
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Posted by Dr Bonz on 08-24-2003 11:12 PM:
Steve, I can't believe you think that these guys (the mods) would think like that. As a fellow "original" you know these guys from way back before they were mods and they are just like us. The only one with ANY financial stake in this is Tako and you know it.
To say that the mods are doing this for financial reasons is unfair and VERY innaccurate.
As far as I know FFP isn't a vendor or sponsor are they? And ATI isn't at fault here either. Of all of the Procharger installs on this board (and there are probably about a dozen now with more happening as we speak) Max's is the only one with even a mention of a major problem. I don't think we need to drag ATI into this (at least not yet).
It has been stated that FFP had the same opportunity to rebut Max's accusations but maybe they instead chose to be more professional by trying to settle it man to man in person instead of here on a message board. If Max would have done the same, no problems. Again, that isn't to say he couldn't STILL state what was going on with his negotiations with FFP, or that he STILL wasn't happy with their solutions.
__________________
JUST ZAY-NO!
The Doctor is in.......a Brickyard Track 350Z.
NISMO Body Kit, CF Emblem Covers, Front "Z" Emblem, Brickyard Painted Engine Cover/Strut Brace, "Z" Oil Cap.
Pioneer XM Satellite Radio, Valentine One Radar Detection, The In-Z P.C. with Xenarc Screen, Windows XP Professional, GPS Navigation, DVD/MP3 Player, & TV Tuner
AEM Cold Air Intake, Z-Xtreme Grounding Kit, Borla True Dual Exhaust, & NOW....can you say "Procharger".....Sure, I knew you could!
Dr Bonz 350Z Gallery
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Posted by vics350 on 08-24-2003 11:12 PM:
Wow, I'm going to miss that thread with Max. I actually was entertaining myself reading it. I know it was getting nasty but I actually was learning some things.
I kinda agree with rodH though because there was a time when a member, who was having a bad experience with iForged, was ripping them and I never saw a moderator step in. Maybe it's because iForged wasn't a sponsoring vendor at that time but I know there were people that made their decisions on not buying iForged based on his comments. My experience with iForged was the total opposite of his but I never felt it was wrong of him to express his opinion no matter how nasty he got.
Maybe I'm looking at it wrong but seems like a there is special treatment now giving to paying vendors which I believe is not in the best interest of the consumer. Obviously, the vendors are sponsoring because of the large number of potential consumers on this forum and if every member was to leave here, so would the vendors.
Oh well, this is just my .02 cents on this subject. I will miss Max's contribution but at the same time I do respect whatever actions the moderators on this forum take.
__________________
Victor
CS Touring - 6MT, Nav, kick plates, rear spoiler
Clear side markers
Grounding wires
"Z" oil filler cap
Billet aluminum oil dipstick
Nismo radiator cap
Polished Injen CAI w/black connectors and tube
Chrome grill trim
19x8 +18 iForged RS Aeros Brushed Aluminum Face
19x10 +29 iForged RS Aeros Brushed Aluminum Face
245/35/19 Falken FK-451
285/35/19 Falken FK-451
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Posted by toykilla on 08-24-2003 11:16 PM:
i have seen a TON of good arguements for max coming back.. but the only thing i have seen agains him is that he was warned... .ok warned about what? expressing his opinions? letting us know about how he got screwed??... geez i would like to know everything and be able to discern the information for myself rather than be spoonfed and blindfolded by the moderators here.
__________________
I shall behave myself.
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Posted by little_rod on 08-24-2003 11:20 PM:
I wonder, can Max post under a different name??? Hmmm.......lol.
__________________
Rodney
SB 350Z Enthusiast - 6 spd - splash guards
Aero package with rear diffusers
19" iforged aeros - rodH & 2003z specials
Toyo T1-S Proxes
Hawk HPS brake pads
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Posted by jak on 08-24-2003 11:22 PM:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by raceboy
Well, I have been here longer than almost all of you and I think banning him was just ridiculous. I know this is a public site and the owners are free to ban whomever they wish, but this one just stinks. The reason why it stinks is that message boards are supposed to be primarily for the members, NOT THE VENDORS.
This board is obviously terrified of pissing off any of it's paying sponsors. If it could happen to FFP, it could happen to any of them, right? Well isn't that the purpose of a message board? So the members can communicate information with each other of where they got great service and where they got crap? Otherwise, what is the f***ing point? Since it is public, FFP can put their side of the story out for everyone to see and let the public decide. I don't need someone deciding for me. You can call it mudslinging or namecalling, but if what Max was saying was true, then he was totally justified.
Instead, to make sure the precious sponsorship money comes in, they ban one side, but not the vendor side??? Do you not smell what is wrong there??? If there were so many past problems with Max (seems like the moderators saying that should be libel), then where were his strikes?? Very stinky. So this site obviously no longer exists to serve the best interest of it's members. Just like government, it has grown so big, it just wants to serve the interest of it's constituants and damn the populace because they have no where else to go.
You all have probably noticed I post here a lot less. Out of all the car boards I have ever been on, this is the most policed one I have ever seen, and I mean policed as in "POLICE STATE." It's just not fun here anymore and I really hope one of the other boards takes off, a board that is not owned by the vendors at the expense of the people that made it what it is.
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Well said!!
I remember making a post once on alternative lower cost big brakes and got jumped all over because they were not StopTech. They must be another one of those high paying sponsors that can do no wrong and can't afford to be lost by negative comments.
Jeff
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Posted by 350z1337 on 08-24-2003 11:23 PM:
ive just started reading this forum but if its like this ill more than gladly saty at club350.com i have read it and been a member for a while and there hasnt been anything like this yet
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Posted by pimp1911 on 08-24-2003 11:28 PM:
My 2cents. If he was warned and then continues to do wrong then the actions the mods took was justified. For example if you get pulled over for speeding and get a warning. And then speed again and get pulled over by the same cop. You are going down. Its business not personal folks. Look at the ads and you can figure that out. I personally wouldnt want to have a b*%%h session with a vendor or dealership over a forum. Go down to the place of business or call them and handle it off line. Max did enough by just putting the message out that he had problems. Then it got ugly.
__________________
350z Chrome Silver Touring 6 speed. All options except Navigation.
Mods:
Clear Side Markers
Custom Grill
Tint 30% rear 35% sides
Z emblem for hood
Z-Xtreme Red Grounding Kit
JDM Altezza Antenna
Injen CAI Red Kit
Nismo Radiator Cap
Nismo Oil Cap
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Posted by toykilla on 08-24-2003 11:29 PM:
sometimes things must get ugle if you want to accomplish something... his vendor apparantly wasnt responsive to his complaints/requests... this would no doubt get dirty after that bullsh**
__________________
I shall behave myself.
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Posted by pimp1911 on 08-24-2003 11:39 PM:
True, True toykilla.
__________________
350z Chrome Silver Touring 6 speed. All options except Navigation.
Mods:
Clear Side Markers
Custom Grill
Tint 30% rear 35% sides
Z emblem for hood
Z-Xtreme Red Grounding Kit
JDM Altezza Antenna
Injen CAI Red Kit
Nismo Radiator Cap
Nismo Oil Cap
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Posted by ares on 08-24-2003 11:47 PM:
arguement against him?
ok, its clear an example is needed.
-taken from this thread. started by him to sell his tires.
https://my350z.com/forum/showthr...&threadid=40144
quote:
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F/S 16 in rims w/ Micky Thompson ET Streets
The rims fit our Z's and are 16 in (perfect for racing.) The tires are Mickey Thompson ET Streets 26X 10 and are like new. They have been to the track twice and will last at least a couple more seasons. I have never tracked them hard because of my car being in the shop for the SC. The tires alone were 175.00 each about 2 months ago. Rims and tires 250.00 cash.
I am looking for someone to pick them up. Too heavy to ship!
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quote:
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max,
if you can't sell them locally, I'd take them for $275 shipped the slowest, cheapest way possible.
Sorry to hear your troubles, hang in there my friend,
Craig
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quote:
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ok thanks,
I think you are the one FFP is publishing emails to on the website. Did you know that he is building a website to publish our emails?
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quote:
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Max,
What re you talking about. Who is FFP??? Info is much appreciated. Publishing emails? That sounds like something I don't like.
Just so you know, which you probably do, I'm the one that bought the intake and pullies from you.
Craig
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quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
PM me so I don't get heat. You are mentioned and called a liar about losing your race so I have all the data and urls including another not at this domain. The quote is "the funny part" as if any of this was funny. I am trying to deal in PM's and email and landlines instead of this forum.
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so theres one example, this is in a thread started BY HIM to sell his tires, yet somehow in only 3 posts the topic again changed to badmouthing the company. I can honestly say I didnt even know who FFP is, I still dont, I dont care, didnt know they were a sponsor.(if I did, it wouldnt make a damn bit of difference)
anyway, regaurdless he was asked not to continue the badmouthing of the installer untill the facts came out, as far as I know to this day, no one knows what the problem is. it may be the install, it may be the SC, or it may very well be a coincidence actually stemming from the past of the car when it ran as much as a 75 or higher shot of nitrous. I really dont know, neither does he, or FPP. and it really doesnt matter, but its not right to run out and badmouth someone before your sure its their fault.
even so, there is a whole section of forums dedicated to reviews of site sponsors(and one for non site sponsors as well). he could have spoke his peice in there. it was not nescessary to turn every post into a negative remark.
many of you may not agree with the outcome, that is obvious, but maxhax hardly tried to help himself in the situation, the request was simple, do not speak of the problems between him and FFP untill the issue was settled. he could seek help from the forum on fixing it, he could talk about his car all he wanted, just please dont use the forum as a tool to bash that company repeatedly.
he chose to ignore our requests, sometime completely sidestepping the issue as tho it was a game to see if he could get by the rules. well guess what, rules are around for a reason, as are warnings, your free to ignore the rules, however membership on this forum is not a right.
his IP was NOT banned, he can come back, we cant nor are we trying to stop him. however if he wants to come back and pick the fight up where it was left off, he will be banned again.
I know I am, and many of the other mods, completely impartial, we are not compensated for our work here, we do this as our gift to the community. and if I order from a seller and am unhappy, you can be damn sure Ill complain, but Ill be sure to do it in the review forum and Ill make sure I complain after its settled and I know I have the facts straight. why would I have any allegiance to a sponsor? he doesnt pay me.
__________________
2003 350Z SB/Black Touring 6mt "I live my life one wash at a time. ... for those 5 hours or less, my car is clean"
blue DIY grounding kit,20% tint moving side windows, 5% everywhere else(hotspot tinting),JDM smoked corner reflectors with LEDs, car PC, Bronze 18" TE-37, in-car-PC coming soon
LED sidemarkers for sale
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Posted by Mikestro on 08-25-2003 12:07 AM:
If Max Max remains banned, then the terrorists have truly won.
(if anyone takes offense to this, then they have not watched one "Tonight Show with Jay Leno" in the last two years.)
__________________
2003 CS Touring
Mods:
Simpson's Sun Deflector
Map Pocket
Infiniti Basslink
Infiniti 6001s
RF 250W Amp
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Posted by toykilla on 08-25-2003 12:12 AM:
if his car was jacked up ... he has every right to badmouth the people who did the install
__________________
I shall behave myself.
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Posted by Scafremon on 08-25-2003 12:21 AM:
You 'free max' advocates are so transparent. You crack me up with all your "communism", "hidden agenda" posts.
Friends of Max....pfft. Some friends you all are!
Did any of you who were being so entertained by his situation stop to think that maybe he shouldn't be posting some of this stuff, as it could work against him in the long run? I'm sure you all PM'd him, and suggessted that he back off a tad, right?
Nah. That would of ended the fun for all of you.
So many of you want to blow this situation out of proportion, like Max was taking out back and put in front of a firing squad.
Max Lives People!
He just can't post on this forum right now. That's all.
Suffer for a bit without his posts, instead of him suffering for posting them.
__________________
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Posted by raceboy on 08-25-2003 12:36 AM:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Dr Bonz
Steve, I can't believe you think that these guys (the mods) would think like that. As a fellow "original" you know these guys from way back before they were mods and they are just like us. The only one with ANY financial stake in this is Tako and you know it. To say that the mods are doing this for financial reasons is unfair and VERY innaccurate.
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I think that mods are people too and people are corrupted with power, no matter how ridiculously small that power is in the grand scheme of things. I had a yellow card at one time myself for what I still believe was no good reason.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Dr Bonz
As far as I know FFP isn't a vendor or sponsor are they? And ATI isn't at fault here either. Of all of the Procharger installs on this board (and there are probably about a dozen now with more happening as we speak) Max's is the only one with even a mention of a major problem. I don't think we need to drag ATI into this (at least not yet).
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Yes, I know they aren't a sponsor, but to attract potential new sponsors you have to let them know they will be protected if a situation like this arises. Obviously they were. The entire strike system was bypassed (why?) and the mods chose to go directly to banning.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Dr Bonz
It has been stated that FFP had the same opportunity to rebut Max's accusations but maybe they instead chose to be more professional by trying to settle it man to man in person instead of here on a message board. If Max would have done the same, no problems. Again, that isn't to say he couldn't STILL state what was going on with his negotiations with FFP, or that he STILL wasn't happy with their solutions.
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I don't know what really happened or who is really in the right and who is in the wrong, but that isn't this issue. If a company has done something wrong, it's in their best interest to just let it die. No sense for them to feed the flames and just let more and more people become aware of it.
Ultimately to me the issue is this. This site has rules. You are expected to follow those rules. If you break the rules, there was supposedly a system in place with strikes and 3 your out (not really that bad of a system IMHO). OK, so say Max broke the rules; then why wasn't the normal system of strikes followed in his case as a sanction??? The mods have stated they had numerous problems with him, why didn't they impose the strike as a sanction?? Why did they skip the entire process? He wasn't a troll just coming here to stir the pot or some idiot with racial epithets or sexist remarks. He was a long time member and should have been given that respect. The mods should have handled it by following their own system. Then there isn't much that could have been said. They could have given him the first strike, then the second, if he picked up a third, how could he complain? But they went directly to ban, do not pass go, do not collect $200. It doesn't make sense.
If the mods would have just followed the procedure that they invented and put in place, I don't think we would be having this discussion right now. Now all of us have to wonder if we put one foot out of line, will we be banned?? Machiavellian rule at it's finest.
__________________
Steve Kaufman
"Remember, you can't spell Civic Type R without R-I-C-E!"
Black 350 Track, everything but Navi and Rear Splash Guards. Delivered 8/20/02
--Nismo S-Tune Suspension with Sway Bars (soon to be Moton Club Sport hopefully)
--Borla Exhaust-True Dual
--Crawford Intake Plenum
--Crawford STB
--Carbotech Panther Brake Pads
--Stoptech steel braided brake lines
--Valvoline Syntec Brake Fluid
--Redline Oil
--12lb Dynabat battery
--Grounding Kit
--AEM Polished CAI
--S03 Pole Positions 255/40/18 Rear and 245/40/18 Front
--Alpine/Infinity Sound sytem with Basslink Sub
--Enkei RPF1 race wheels. 17"X8.5"F, 17"X9.5"R with shaved Toyo RA-1 "R" compound tires size 255F and 275R.
Coming soon:
--Cams (haven't decided which ones yet)
--Crawford Headers
--Wright Tuning Race Anti Roll Bars
That's me, #71
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Posted by ihatethatbobbarker on 08-25-2003 12:41 AM:
max was warned in pms, thats like getting a strike without everyone else seeing it.
you guys talk about censorship, i get away with saying plenty and ill say it to a sponsor and not ahve a problem, no mod has ever told me to be careful with a sponsor, my strike is for making a sexual comment(im actually surprised i really did get a strike for it but oh well)
__________________
-Blue is cool
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Posted by infidsg35 on 08-25-2003 12:43 AM:
Bla Bla Bla.. I think Max is still here LoL since we are still here fighting about nonsence... I say give him the chair!!! Talking bad about vendors should be punishable by death.. PERIOD!!!
I also agree with Raceboy as I always do..
__________________
Infiniti G35 Coupe
Waiting on all mods..
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Posted by Scafremon on 08-25-2003 12:45 AM:
Steve,
Your whole issue in this matter is that you didn't get a chance to see some different colored cards by Max's name?
I think the mods have already stated numerous times that Max was warned on previous occassions. Isn't that enough? Do we have to see yellow, then red cards by peoples names for a certain amount of time before further action can be taken by the mods?
__________________
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Posted by infidsg35 on 08-25-2003 12:48 AM:
YES!! If that is the procedure...
__________________
Infiniti G35 Coupe
Waiting on all mods..
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Posted by tbcz on 08-25-2003 12:53 AM:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by raceboy
This board is obviously terrified of pissing off any of it's paying sponsors. If it could happen to FFP, it could happen to any of them, right? Well isn't that the purpose of a message board? So the members can communicate information with each other of where they got great service and where they got crap? Otherwise, what is the f***ing point? Since it is public, FFP can put their side of the story out for everyone to see and let the public decide. I don't need someone deciding for me. You can call it mudslinging or namecalling, but if what Max was saying was true, then he was totally justified.
Instead, to make sure the precious sponsorship money comes in, they ban one side, but not the vendor side??? Do you not smell what is wrong there??? If there were so many past problems with Max (seems like the moderators saying that should be libel), then where were his strikes?? Very stinky. So this site obviously no longer exists to serve the best interest of it's members. Just like government, it has grown so big, it just wants to serve the interest of it's constituants and damn the populace because they have no where else to go.
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This is absurd. What the hell do I stand to gain by protecting a vendor? A non-sponsoring vendor at that? What...I am going to be fired from my non-paying moderator job? I couldn't care less whether it was FFP or anyone else including a site sponsor. The day that Victor tells me I have to delete or otherwise suppress negative feedback about a vendor is the day I step down as a moderator here and move to another site.
FFP has not been banned because they have never done anything wrong. They have never done a thing to draw attention to themselves. When we requested that they refrain from posting on this topic until more facts were known and a resolution was reached, they actually listened. Not very hard. Perhaps you can point me to a reason why they should have been banned...is it just because max was banned? Sorry, but this is hardly reason enough. I will reiterate this for like the third time...MaxHax's banning is the result of several situations that have occured over the last six months.
This does lead to a valid point you raised however...why no strikes? The honest reason (for me) is that with MaxHax, strikes would have been useless. If you ever had to listen to one of his PM tirades against you for the slightest suggestion or warning, you would know what I mean. MaxHax, for all his good qualities, did not suffer criticism well. He certainly deserved strikes for his past behavior (and I will again remind you that there is much that has been deleted from the forum or that perhaps you have missed). I have never given him one because I honestly thought that he would be so bitter about it that it would ruin his presence here. I also do take into consideration a members contributions to this site. maxhax had proven himself to be a valuable poster, with lots of information to share. I am always reluctant to be strict with members who have spent so much time contributing. Mind you, this does not mean he wasn't warned through PM about his actions and/or behavior. it just means that he didn't have any public strikes. He knew damn well how many times he had crossed the line and ignored it. As another mod stated, apparantly he felt it was some kind of game to see how many times he could ignore us...I am sure he was just baiting the staff, poised to scream bloody murder whenever we didi make any actions public.
I will again say that there are many things that you do not know...I can understand your disgreement if you think max was banned solely for refusing our request to back off on his supercharger install for the time being. This was not however what happened. I have neither the time nor in the case of deleted posts/threads the ability to research and repost the numerous instances to back up my claims. Guess I'll just settle for being "libel".
quote:
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I would be interested to know more about the "cumulative effect" in whcih you speak of. For those of us who are unaware, please share the other contributory factors. I am assuming there is much more than his dealings with FFP that has placed him in this situation with the forum?
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The other factors in this are repeated breaking of the sites rules, plain and simple. If you have numerous posts or threads deleted and have received many PMs from the mods about the rules or your behavior or your posting habits, then you can be pretty sure that the "cumulative effect" is in play. Believe me, you have to go out of your way to get to this point. And you will be given every opportunity to change your ways (unless you fall into the blatent racism/troll category, in which case there is much less tolerence).
__________________
Tim - Charter member #2
Silver Enthusiast/6MT/Kickplates/Mats
Delivered 9/13/02
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Posted by N4Spd on 08-25-2003 12:55 AM:
uh, yah...
quote:
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Originally posted by infidsg35
YES!! If that is the procedure...
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right on!
__________________
g35c, WAS: brickyard track
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Posted by raceboy on 08-25-2003 12:59 AM:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Scafremon
Steve,
Your whole issue in this matter is that you didn't get a chance to see some different colored cards by Max's name?
I think the mods have already stated numerous times that Max was warned on previous occassions. Isn't that enough? Do we have to see yellow, then red cards by peoples names for a certain amount of time before further action can be taken by the mods?
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Let's say you were driving 5 miles an hour over the limit in a school zone. I bet you would be mad as hell if they just went straight to taking away your license instead of just giving you a ticket. I wouldn't buy the government's argument of "take our word for it, we have warned him before." Give someone the same courtesy you would want for yourself.
I bet you would be crying about procedure then!
__________________
Steve Kaufman
"Remember, you can't spell Civic Type R without R-I-C-E!"
Black 350 Track, everything but Navi and Rear Splash Guards. Delivered 8/20/02
--Nismo S-Tune Suspension with Sway Bars (soon to be Moton Club Sport hopefully)
--Borla Exhaust-True Dual
--Crawford Intake Plenum
--Crawford STB
--Carbotech Panther Brake Pads
--Stoptech steel braided brake lines
--Valvoline Syntec Brake Fluid
--Redline Oil
--12lb Dynabat battery
--Grounding Kit
--AEM Polished CAI
--S03 Pole Positions 255/40/18 Rear and 245/40/18 Front
--Alpine/Infinity Sound sytem with Basslink Sub
--Enkei RPF1 race wheels. 17"X8.5"F, 17"X9.5"R with shaved Toyo RA-1 "R" compound tires size 255F and 275R.
Coming soon:
--Cams (haven't decided which ones yet)
--Crawford Headers
--Wright Tuning Race Anti Roll Bars
That's me, #71
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Posted by SHAQMAGIC on 08-25-2003 01:04 AM:
I've been on the forum for a few months and personally a few of the mods **** me off by being so biased.
They worship certain products and rip on others so fast it's ridiculous.
I've seen mods rip users, even call a user stupid..
A moderator should do just that, moderate, we'd be better off without your opinions, or maybe you could post your opinions under a different screen-name because they are now tainted in most users opinions.
However; I missed the Max thread, maybe someone can pm it to me for my amusement. If the mods want to ban him, that's their right whether it's fair or not.
Someone used a cop analogy about speeding for why MAX should be banned, good try but that arguement actually helps MAX.
You said the cop lets him go then catches him again and boom he deserves a ticket.
Well MAX was let go and got "caught" again but he didn't get a ticket, he got his license suspended.
Bad procedure mods. you have strikes, use them, use them fast if you have to, but use them.
Also mods, in my opinion, you guys seem like you are enjoying this, a true professional would not post one more word, you are adding fuel to the fire. Stop your posts and the thread ends.
You DO NOT HAVE TO ANSWER TO ANYONE for your actions and by continually answering you are actually trying to talk yourselves into believeing the ban was justified.
__________________
Lemans Sunset Touring 6MT
Burnt Orange
Every Option
Custom Grille
ADR Sterlings
Hawk HPS Pads
Insaneamine Grounding kit (Lemans Sunset)
Tint (Any week now, too lazy)
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Posted by Mikestro on 08-25-2003 01:12 AM:
I hold patents in the field of electrical engineering an a mod said at one point (avatar story) that my actions lacked creativity. Well, I also purchased a Sony Wega a few months ago, I guess Iwasn't creative enough to design my own? Some things are designed and some things are purchased, get used to it.
Some mods show up and say "be nice, be nice" then when they choose to step in, they make rude and biased comments.
This does not apply to all mods.
__________________
2003 CS Touring
Mods:
Simpson's Sun Deflector
Map Pocket
Infiniti Basslink
Infiniti 6001s
RF 250W Amp
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Posted by Scafremon on 08-25-2003 01:15 AM:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by raceboy
Let's say you were driving 5 miles an hour over the limit in a school zone. I bet you would be mad as hell if they just went straight to taking away your license instead of just giving you a ticket. I wouldn't buy the government's argument of "take our word for it, we have warned him before." Give someone the same courtesy you would want for yourself.
I bet you would be crying about procedure then!
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Unless they had to chase me, and even though they were on their PA system shouting "Pull Over! Pull Over!", I just kept racing. Ran a couple red lights (Pull Over! Pull Over!), made some pedestrians dodge out of a crosswalk (PULL OVER! PULL OVER!"), ended up hitting the spike strips on the highway before they could stop me.
Hopefully you would be there on my side letting them know that you didn't see anything, and they would just give me a yellow card, and I could be on my way.
It's not the government Steve. It's a car forum. Our friends donate their time to try and help keep things civil around here.
Let's keep things in perspective, or we might as well just start typing "right on!"
__________________
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Posted by Mikestro on 08-25-2003 01:18 AM:
quote:
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Originally posted by Scafremon
Unless they had to chase me, and even though they were on their PA system shouting "Pull Over! Pull Over!", I just kept racing. Ran a couple red lights (Pull Over! Pull Over!), made some pedestrians dodge out of a crosswalk (PULL OVER! PULL OVER!"), ended up hitting the spike strips on the highway before they could stop me.
Hopefully you would be there on my side letting them know that you didn't see anything, and they would just give me a yellow card, and I could be on my way.
It's not the government Steve. It's a car forum. Our friends donate their time to try and help keep things civil around here.
Let's keep things in perspective, or we might as well just start typing "right on!"
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right on man, I'm feeling ya
__________________
2003 CS Touring
Mods:
Simpson's Sun Deflector
Map Pocket
Infiniti Basslink
Infiniti 6001s
RF 250W Amp
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Posted by infidsg35 on 08-25-2003 01:22 AM:
Yes and if you went to court and said I have no tickets but got my License taken away for speeding I bet they would say that is way to harsh and that is wrong of the cop (mod) to not fallow proper procedure.. I bet they would reinstate his license.. Like everything there is procedure and if it not fallowed and something drastic happens people will get loud about it..
Scaf: that was pretty dumb the proper procedure is a cop will fallow you and if he puts his lights a sirens on you have to pull over... Tickets represent red, yellow cards not the PA
__________________
Infiniti G35 Coupe
Waiting on all mods..
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Posted by Scafremon on 08-25-2003 01:34 AM:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by infidsg35
Scaf: that was pretty dumb the proper procedure is a cop will fallow you and if he puts his lights a sirens on you have to pull over... Tickets represent red, yellow cards not the PA
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You're right. That was kinda dumb. My aplogies.
You see, I was really reaching on that analogy. I was trying to come up with a way that I could get my first warning, and my second warning, and then get my license taken away all in a brief amount of time. I wish I would have thought of the 'lights and sirens' thingy - that would've been good to add to my story.
It's just that sometimes I get these ideas - heck - just thoughts are all they are really. And I start typing even before I have the whole scenario worked out in my head. I kinda just wing-it while I type.
Take this post for instance as an example. I had no idea that I would still be typing at this point! I mean, I didn'tplan on sharing this most intimate part of how my brain works with you and everyone else, and yet, I keep going.
Boy oh boy. Now this is what I call losing the continuity of the thread!
My bad. Sorry everyone. Please continue.
(oops)
__________________
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Posted by raceboy on 08-25-2003 01:37 AM:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Scafremon
You're right. That was kinda dumb. My aplogies.
You see, I was really reaching on that analogy. I was trying to come up with a way that I could get my first warning, and my second warning, and then get my license taken away all in a brief amount of time. I wish I would have thought of the 'lights and sirens' thingy - that would've been good to add to my story.
It's just that sometimes I get these ideas - heck - just thoughts are all they are really. And I start typing even before I have the whole scenario worked out in my head. I kinda just wing-it while I type.
Take this post for instance as an example. I had no idea that I would still be typing at this point! I mean, I didn'tplan on sharing this most intimate part of how my brain works with you and everyone else, and yet, I keep going.
Boy oh boy. Now this is what I call losing the continuity of the thread!
My bad. Sorry everyone. Please continue.
(oops)
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Mods: I think Scaf should get a strike just for this post. Charge him with reckless use of bandwidth!! Oh wait, what am I doing, nevermind, carry on as you were.
__________________
Steve Kaufman
"Remember, you can't spell Civic Type R without R-I-C-E!"
Black 350 Track, everything but Navi and Rear Splash Guards. Delivered 8/20/02
--Nismo S-Tune Suspension with Sway Bars (soon to be Moton Club Sport hopefully)
--Borla Exhaust-True Dual
--Crawford Intake Plenum
--Crawford STB
--Carbotech Panther Brake Pads
--Stoptech steel braided brake lines
--Valvoline Syntec Brake Fluid
--Redline Oil
--12lb Dynabat battery
--Grounding Kit
--AEM Polished CAI
--S03 Pole Positions 255/40/18 Rear and 245/40/18 Front
--Alpine/Infinity Sound sytem with Basslink Sub
--Enkei RPF1 race wheels. 17"X8.5"F, 17"X9.5"R with shaved Toyo RA-1 "R" compound tires size 255F and 275R.
Coming soon:
--Cams (haven't decided which ones yet)
--Crawford Headers
--Wright Tuning Race Anti Roll Bars
That's me, #71
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Posted by luvdatz on 08-25-2003 02:05 AM:
Come on everybody, I'm sure not all 15,000 people on the forum have given their opinion yet. It must be a conspiracy, the mods are getting some sort of sick enjoyment out of this. Cheer on your side, the side who gets the most cheers wins, right? (The previous paragraph was sarcasm for those who aren't sure what I mean)
It's like a train wreck, a horrible disaster, but you can't look away and then you've got to tell all your friends about it. This is ridiculous people.
This is just a male soap opera. Everybody was there egging on Max, but nobody takes the time to look at the damage that Max's posts have done to FFP's business. He doesn't know enough to know what the problem is, yet he can accuse FFP of doing a bad install. Maybe it is the install, maybe it isn't. In the meantime we've got a possibly innocent performance shop being crucified for the whole world to see before the facts are in.
What's going to happen if we find out it's not the install??
Their reputation is now destroyed with 350z owners, nobody is going to go there now because they'll be told "Yeah don't go to FFP because they don't know what they're doing" by someone who read it on the internet. It happens all the time.
There are many people on this forum who like nothing better than a good argument, but don't have enough common sense to look at the big picture and think things through intelligently. To those of you who don't know whether I'm talking about you, I am.
Get on with your life, Max is gone probably not for good, but he is for now. Hopefully he learned a lesson from it and can continue to provide useful information for those of us who are here for that.
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Posted by elektrik_juggernaut on 08-25-2003 03:08 AM:
FFP broke the BASIC RULES several times.......how many posts did they start out with,"Paul, you are such a liar...."?......i thought name-calling was a striking/banning offense.
__________________
Chrome Silver Performance 6MT
Procharger from Mike @ Altered Atmosphere
Install by Dave @ Black Magic Racing
Prior to Procharger:
13.64@103.28mph
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Posted by SteveZzz on 08-25-2003 06:51 AM:
I'm a relative newcomer here, but I participate and have moderated forums dedicated to other subjects. Several of those are much, much larger than this one. As an example, one of them has over 1,000 users online at any given time, and has over 75,000 members and over 2 million posts.
These types of threads will pop up from time to time. Only the subject and users change. Anytime you have a group of people (real or virtual) you'll have disagreements and opinions. The bottom line is this is a PRIVATE forum, and the owners and their agents (the moderators) can do whatever they see fit as appropriate.
As someone here said, if you don't like the way this forum is manged, don't frequent it. If you find it valuable, then use it in a way the owners deem fit.
__________________
Steve
Chrome Silver 350Z Enthusiast
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Posted by toykilla on 08-25-2003 09:45 AM:
I THINK EVERYONE ON THIS THREAD SHOULD BE BANNED
...
oh what the hell... every registered member should be banned as well.. lets start over
__________________
I shall behave myself.
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Posted by Richard 350z on 08-25-2003 10:05 AM:
The Thread Was Moved -
This thread is now on the "Site Maintenance - Feedback" forum. I'll bet all the members to that forum as soon as they sign on. Hopefully the moderators will leave the "cross-reference" on the Engine Mods forum. If not, well . . .
Richard
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Posted by GaryK on 08-25-2003 10:55 AM:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by luvdatz
Come on everybody, I'm sure not all 15,000 people on the forum have given their opinion yet. It must be a conspiracy, the mods are getting some sort of sick enjoyment out of this. Cheer on your side, the side who gets the most cheers wins, right? (The previous paragraph was sarcasm for those who aren't sure what I mean)
It's like a train wreck, a horrible disaster, but you can't look away and then you've got to tell all your friends about it. This is ridiculous people.
This is just a male soap opera. Everybody was there egging on Max, but nobody takes the time to look at the damage that Max's posts have done to FFP's business. He doesn't know enough to know what the problem is, yet he can accuse FFP of doing a bad install. Maybe it is the install, maybe it isn't. In the meantime we've got a possibly innocent performance shop being crucified for the whole world to see before the facts are in.
What's going to happen if we find out it's not the install??
Their reputation is now destroyed with 350z owners, nobody is going to go there now because they'll be told "Yeah don't go to FFP because they don't know what they're doing" by someone who read it on the internet. It happens all the time.
There are many people on this forum who like nothing better than a good argument, but don't have enough common sense to look at the big picture and think things through intelligently. To those of you who don't know whether I'm talking about you, I am.
Get on with your life, Max is gone probably not for good, but he is for now. Hopefully he learned a lesson from it and can continue to provide useful information for those of us who are here for that.
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Wow, somebody else that actually considers that there might, just maybe, possibly be more than one side to the story. I'm not going to take sides in the ATI install matter, but it is very possible that the car had problems prior to going to FFP. Its also possible that it didn't. But nobody here knows the whole story about the install and the problems. Max doesn't know that much about it himself, so how can you take his word that FFP is absolutely the cause of all the problems?
Its also apparent that nobody here knows the whole story about the warnings and dialogue between Max and the mods, except for Max and the mods. Just because you don't know about the warnings and rule infractions does not mean it didn't happen. I don't have a problem with Max, but I can see that he probably wouldn't have dealt with the yellow and red cards very well, and they probably did him a favor by issuing private warnings. Hopefully this will all get worked out, but you guys need to give the mods a break or go somewhere else IMHO.
__________________
GaryK
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Posted by pimp1911 on 08-25-2003 11:22 AM:
Rodney King "Can't we all just get along".
__________________
350z Chrome Silver Touring 6 speed. All options except Navigation.
Mods:
Clear Side Markers
Custom Grill
Tint 30% rear 35% sides
Z emblem for hood
Z-Xtreme Red Grounding Kit
JDM Altezza Antenna
Injen CAI Red Kit
Nismo Radiator Cap
Nismo Oil Cap
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Posted by Richard 350z on 08-25-2003 11:51 AM:
NO
No. We can't ALL get along. MaxHax can't get along because he has been banned.
Richard
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Posted by jesseenglish on 08-25-2003 12:00 PM:
Just to let people know, don't know if you actually care about whether Max's problem is getting fixed or if it's just an excuse for people to argue. It is still being worked on even without this website. I'll try to post some resolution to this matter when we figure it out.
Just a reminder, no one here is getting "Z" points anymore, so it doesn't help your point count to put worthless posts up. I was kind of hoping that the administrator getting rid of the points would stop the unecessary posts. Obviously not though.
__________________
Pikes Peak White Enthusiast
______________________________
ATI Procharger
Borla True Dual Exhaust
Alpine CDA-9815
Brown Bread
Diamond Plate Floor Mats
Insaneanime grounding kit
What was the best thing before sliced bread?
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Posted by nonmature on 08-25-2003 01:03 PM:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by jesseenglish
The purpose of this forum is to discuss cars whether positive or negative. Name calling is a waste of my time and a waste of precious bandwidth. I've got a 56k modem and only connect at 26.2 When I click on a thread that's purported to be about the installation of a procharger supercharger, I expect it to be just that. Why should people have to weed through a bunch of crap posts to get to the real cause behind a problem.
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name calling is on every board Flamin and everything comes with differing opinions... I agree with richard , EJ , and toykilla Max should not have been banned.. I was talkin to TCBz about this just prior to max's ban... the post generally got takin the way they did not only because of max and FFP, but because of the rest of us that jumped in and agrued about it so if max was to blame I think everyone that posted in any of those posts to fuel the fire be banned as well... this includes ME, FFP, and many other members... max did not need to be banned there could have been an alternate form of punishment found...
As for tbcz not bannin ffp because hes a vendor, come on people dont be stupid even though tbcz had to deal with a lot of max's crap but after PM'ing him myself I do not think he is so shallow as to get rid of only max because of these incidents...
bottom line this was all of our faults in those threads, not just max's, and I think max should be reinstated on this board
__________________
Borla exhaust
Technosquare ECU
Frankenstein Nitrous kit... hehehe
Nos solenoids with
NX bottle and remote opener
14.09 @ CalSpeedway(I/E/ECU)
*RED*AEM CAI
*RED* Hyperground grounding kit
*RED* streetglow underglow
*RED* bars under dash and seats
~~~upcoming~~~
Carbon Fiber Nismo Body Kit(being made)
Volk te37's on order in gunmetal
Toyo's or Bridgestones (struggling)
headers(dont know which)
Greddy turbo(after you are my guinea pig)
EVOLUTION INDUSTRIES
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Posted by elektrik_juggernaut on 08-25-2003 01:05 PM:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by jesseenglish
Just to let people know, don't know if you actually care about whether Max's problem is getting fixed or if it's just an excuse for people to argue. It is still being worked on even without this website. I'll try to post some resolution to this matter when we figure it out.
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Yes it is.......today Nissan will be doing an independent leak-down test on his car......this will either back up Nissan's prior compression check that said "all cylinders good".......or it will tell us if his motor is indeed suffering from bad rings......i suspect the former, but we shall see
__________________
Chrome Silver Performance 6MT
Procharger from Mike @ Altered Atmosphere
Install by Dave @ Black Magic Racing
Prior to Procharger:
13.64@103.28mph
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Posted by jesseenglish on 08-25-2003 01:10 PM:
I highly suspect it has nothing to do with rings. I'm waiting on pics of the PCV system from Max to really get a good look at how things were setup.
__________________
Pikes Peak White Enthusiast
______________________________
ATI Procharger
Borla True Dual Exhaust
Alpine CDA-9815
Brown Bread
Diamond Plate Floor Mats
Insaneanime grounding kit
What was the best thing before sliced bread?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted by TheSVTKid on 08-25-2003 05:08 PM:
Since that I have installed 5 of these 350Z kits already. And honestly I enjoy the installs, and the tuning both on and off the dyno, with a wideband.
I have to say the PCV system is VERY easy to install, and you would have to be TRYING to mess it up. If you have ever worked with forced induction, then all the same rules apply to this 350Z/G35 motor.
Honestly, after doing many of these kits, I would gladly do one in my sleep.
EA
__________________
..::Currently Down for Full Revamp::..
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Posted by dkle99 on 08-25-2003 06:55 PM:
Sounds like everyone on this forum is getting sued:
The following is the breakdown of lawsuits that will be filed in the party's respective regional municipal court:
1. Max sues FFP for bad install
2. FFP counter-sues Max for Libel
3. Max then sues my350z.com's moderators and their associates for Libel and Freedom of Speech
4. FFP also sues the my350z.com's members for Libel
5. My305z.com's members sue My350z.com for communistic & monopolistic practices
We are fast approaching the my350zOomday.
Good luck to all that will be sued and may the truth set us free!
Amen!
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Posted by Mike Wazowski on 08-25-2003 09:21 PM:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by raceboy
Well, I have been here longer than almost all of you and I think banning him was just ridiculous. I know this is a public site and the owners are free to ban whomever they wish, but this one just stinks. The reason why it stinks is that message boards are supposed to be primarily for the members, NOT THE VENDORS.
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This board IS for the members. The Vendors are here for the members. The board revolves around the members. If there weren't any member then there wouldn't be a point in having vendors.
quote:
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This board is obviously terrified of pissing off any of it's paying sponsors. If it could happen to FFP, it could happen to any of them, right? Well isn't that the purpose of a message board? So the members can communicate information with each other of where they got great service and where they got crap? Otherwise, what is the f***ing point? Since it is public, FFP can put their side of the story out for everyone to see and let the public decide. I don't need someone deciding for me. You can call it mudslinging or namecalling, but if what Max was saying was true, then he was totally justified.
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First of all, FFP isn't even a sponsor, nor were they ever, nor we they a potential sponsor. We do allow members to talk about their experiences; we don't censor that. We asked Max to stop because we didn't want to become involved since it was turning into a legal matter.
quote:
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Instead, to make sure the precious sponsorship money comes in, they ban one side, but not the vendor side??? Do you not smell what is wrong there??? If there were so many past problems with Max (seems like the moderators saying that should be libel), then where were his strikes?? Very stinky. So this site obviously no longer exists to serve the best interest of it's members. Just like government, it has grown so big, it just wants to serve the interest of it's constituants and damn the populace because they have no where else to go.
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We don't put sponsors before members. I am the ONLY one who takes care of all the sponsorship and business side. The moderator who has been dealing with this whole issue with MaxHax (Tim, tbcz) has nothing to do with the sponsors. He's just a moderator. The past problems were dealt with via PM. We let some of them slide because of the hard times he was having with his life. You make it sound as if we banned him instantly for talking bad about a vendor (who isn't even a sponsor). He was banned for not complying with moderators request even after he agreed to them. We didn't ban FFP because they didn't do anything wrong. I've always tried to make this place better for the members, even you know this Steve. I asked you in the past for your opinions on the site via PM because I was trying to do what the members wanted.
quote:
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You all have probably noticed I post here a lot less. Out of all the car boards I have ever been on, this is the most policed one I have ever seen, and I mean policed as in "POLICE STATE." It's just not fun here anymore and I really hope one of the other boards takes off, a board that is not owned by the vendors at the expense of the people that made it what it is.
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The reason why we "police" the forum is because we try to keep the content flowing, clean, and organized. This site isn't owned by the vendors, nor will it ever be. It's for the members and always will be.
Victor
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Posted by jesseenglish on 08-25-2003 09:29 PM:
Well just to let everyone know if you care, MaxHax does have internal engine damage. He's going to need to either get his engine rebuilt or buy a new engine which he is looking at doing.
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Posted by GaryK on 08-25-2003 09:40 PM:
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Originally posted by jesseenglish
Well just to let everyone know if you care, MaxHax does have internal engine damage. He's going to need to either get his engine rebuilt or buy a new engine which he is looking at doing.
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Well that blows, I'm sorry to hear that. So was it the rings? I know he's probably already financially drained because of this thing, but this would be the perfect opportunity to put some nice rods and low comp pistons in....then it would be ready for some real boost. I guess the real question is still, dare I say...how did it happen?
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Posted by Mike Wazowski on 08-25-2003 09:45 PM:
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Originally posted by infidsg35
ok you people are NUTZ.. Why cant a guy express himself?? If you dont want to hear it DONT READ IT!!..
I feel he was a very good source of info and just sharded his ups and downs every step of the way.. What more can you ask for!! Showed us what problems with the Zex kit and Ati he was having..
For the people who say he wouldnt stop come on WAKE up.. He stoped all the legal stuff and was asking real questions about rings and such.. He has a big problem with the Ati and his car is not running.. So what better to do then get advice from umm what 15,000 people on this forum that might of had a similar experiance with a car in the past that could help..
I see this as moderators on a powertrip and it is BS..
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We are not "NUTZ". This isn't about someone expressing themself. This is about complying with requests by moderators. We allow members to speak freely about their experiences all the time, but this was turning into a legal matter that we don't we to participate in. So we told Max and FFP to stop. Both agreed to stop. Apparantly Max ignored our request and his own words and kept on posting more threads about FFP.
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Thats all I will say b4 I get banned
Lets hope Max comes back with a diff name...
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We have never banned anyone for posting their opinion. So quit acting foolish.
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Posted by Mike Wazowski on 08-25-2003 09:54 PM:
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Originally posted by SlamMan
While at times I think this site is over managed I think if Max was asked repeatedly to keep a lid on the legal side of the subject he should have to face some sort of consequence. I personally never thought the things Max was saying should be censored. I did agree they should stop untill the situation was resolved. I would have like to see an extended suspension. But it sounds to me like it wasn't a snap decision.
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He was indeed asked repeatedly to stop, but did not. He was given 2 previous cooling down times.
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Posted by Mike Wazowski on 08-25-2003 09:57 PM:
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Originally posted by dahensta
I have been lurking this board for many months and have the utmost interest in this forum for only one purpose, forced induction options for the 350/G35 engine. Although I do not yet own a G35 coupe, the second that it becomes available with VPP pricing I'll be writing 2 checks. One to Infiniti and another to whoever makes the better supercharger.
Opinions are like A-holes, everyone's got one and they all STINK! Except your own of course. We all come from different angles here but there is one thing we can say with certainty. The issue between Max and FFP WILL GO TO COURT. That being said, one can also certainly state that the moderators of this forum will also get dragged into civil court as has been promised by MAX when he stated, "my wife cried and missed a day of work...now it is civil." It is called a SUBPOENA and it WILL get handed to you when two parties do not agree and lawyers want to hear from ALL PARTIES INVOLVED. That of course includes this forum by default, especially since FFP was not happy that this forum was being used as a means for "defamation."
I work in a profession where I get handed subpoenas more than I want. In fact in 2 days I have to go to superior court to testify to give my "expert opinion" on a case where I was not even involved with the two parties. Moderators, I support your decision for the obvious reasons above. I suspect that, were this NOT going to court, then they could be left to hash it out all they wanted here. In the final analysis, I would like to know the ultimate outcome of the court decision.
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That's exactly our reason, we don't want to become involved. Thanks for being one of the very few who understand our point of view.
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Posted by Mike Wazowski on 08-25-2003 10:10 PM:
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Originally posted by raceboy
This board is obviously terrified of pissing off any of it's paying sponsors. If it could happen to FFP, it could happen to any of them, right? Well isn't that the purpose of a message board? So the members can communicate information with each other of where they got great service and where they got crap? Otherwise, what is the f***ing point? Since it is public, FFP can put their side of the story out for everyone to see and let the public decide. I don't need someone deciding for me. You can call it mudslinging or namecalling, but if what Max was saying was true, then he was totally justified.
Instead, to make sure the precious sponsorship money comes in, they ban one side, but not the vendor side??? Do you not smell what is wrong there??? If there were so many past problems with Max (seems like the moderators saying that should be libel), then where were his strikes?? Very stinky. So this site obviously no longer exists to serve the best interest of it's members. Just like government, it has grown so big, it just wants to serve the interest of it's constituants and damn the populace because they have no where else to go.
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Another thing Steve, if we were really scared then why would we allow "Vendor Reviews", a place which members can express their opinions (praise, neutral, complaint) of "Paying Sponsor/Vendors". Look at the Crystal Guard review page, their is only 1 review and it is negative. Do I remove it since the company is owned by the head administrator? Nope, I leave it. Do I punish the author for posting a bad review? Nope. Look at the Gruppe-S review page. I posted a complaint about them even though they are the oldest sponsor.
Victor
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Posted by Mike Wazowski on 08-25-2003 10:15 PM:
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Originally posted by elektrik_juggernaut
I have a couple of concerns........ I noticed that others who are "skating on thin ice" are given the opportunity to change their ways through "the strike system", formerly known as the "yellow card, red card system"......correct me if i'm wrong, but i don't recall MaxHax having any official strikes on his profile.......if that is the standard method of enforcement for the masses, then i believe that method should have been employed in his case.....i understand that MaxHax may have received several PM's about this, but i still think he might have thought twice about his posts if he had 2 strikes under his name......to go from normal standing to "banned" status is a bit extreme, not to mention unfair......especially when compared to the previous infractions that warranted bans on others.
MaxHax did a lot for this community......he was one of the first to run nitrous, one of the first with the Crawford Plenum, and one of the first to get the Procharger installed.......he gave details about these mods, good and bad details.......he gave the truth, as he saw it......I think this ultimately helped people to decide if these mods were for them........he did the research that a lot of us were too afraid to do with our own cars.
If this site becomes the kind of place where people are only allowed to say good things about products and services, then it has ceased to be a source of information, and it has instead become one big elaborate commercial
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Yes, it should have been used in this case but we dealt with it via PMs.
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Posted by Mike Wazowski on 08-25-2003 10:17 PM:
Re: Re: Censorship: An Open Letter
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Originally posted by rodH
my biggest issue is why are some companies allowed to be bashed on this site and others aren't?? the inconsistancy is what doesn't look good and like something shady is going on.
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show me when this has ever happened.
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Posted by Mike Wazowski on 08-25-2003 10:22 PM:
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Originally posted by Dr Bonz
Sorry, but you are incorrect. This is a PRIVATELY OWNED board and free speech does not apply here. You can run out on a PUBLIC street corner and yell whatever you want, and cry free speech all you want. This is not the case on a board on which you are a GUEST of the OWNER of the site.
I kind of liked Max. I really did. But if you have been around here as long as I have, you would have known of all of the OTHER threads in which Max's mouth (typing fingers) got him into trouble. I have seen every one. You guys who are saying that the mods were too quick to do what they did all seem to have pretty low post counts and may not have been here for the ENTIRE show. He had been given warning after warning and he never seemed to let up and that was just in the open threads! That is to say nothing of the numerous PM's I'm sure he got!
FFP has not said squat since both parties were warned. I'm certain that if they would have continued to spar with Max back and forth, they would have met the same fate.
I would like to have Max back at some point. His experiences are definitely valuable. It's just that there are ways to get your point across tactfully, effectively, and politely without resorting to slander (in this case libel), and name calling.
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Thanks Dr. for backing us up, you are one of the few who have actually seen what Max was up to. You are right, FFP would have been dealt with the same way, but they chose to comply.
Victor
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Posted by Mike Wazowski on 08-25-2003 10:26 PM:
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Originally posted by Wicked4u2c
Welcome to communism people...
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Communism my ***. Do you even know the meaning of communism?
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Posted by Mike Wazowski on 08-25-2003 10:38 PM:
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Originally posted by toykilla
why do u have to be tactfully and tricky to effectively make a point on this form?... why cant you just be blunt and state the facts without the fear of being banned?
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Use common sense, is that so hard? We don't make it hard to get points across here.
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Posted by Dr Bonz on 08-25-2003 10:53 PM:
Tact and "trickiness" are two completely different concepts. I never said anything about being "tricky" whatever that means.
You can still be BLUNT about something and still get your point across TACTFULLY. These words are not mutually exclusive.
On the other hand, you can be Blunt about something and at the same time be an A$$.
The former will allow you to post another day.
The latter will get you banned.
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Posted by Mike Wazowski on 08-25-2003 11:09 PM:
quote:
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Originally posted by pimp1911
My 2cents. If he was warned and then continues to do wrong then the actions the mods took was justified. For example if you get pulled over for speeding and get a warning. And then speed again and get pulled over by the same cop. You are going down. Its business not personal folks. Look at the ads and you can figure that out. I personally wouldnt want to have a b*%%h session with a vendor or dealership over a forum. Go down to the place of business or call them and handle it off line. Max did enough by just putting the message out that he had problems. Then it got ugly.
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He was indeed warned many times.
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Posted by 2003z on 08-25-2003 11:24 PM:
I think the mods did a great job in this instance. After all, you are here to moderate, and remembering back to when this site was formed, it was because this same type of stuff was happening at zcar.com and we were tired of it.
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08-26-2003, 08:43 PM
#12
Originally posted by ares
post 14 times? :P thats all I can think of.
and victor I wasnt the one that deleted the list of aftermarket parts! heh along with 9000 other useful posts.
post 14 times? :P thats all I can think of.
and victor I wasnt the one that deleted the list of aftermarket parts! heh along with 9000 other useful posts.
Ares
08-26-2003, 09:49 PM
#18
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Originally posted by Richard 350z
I believe this is an offense that requires immediate banning of FFP.
I believe this is an offense that requires immediate banning of FFP.
08-26-2003, 11:01 PM
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I was trying to stay pretty neutral, but it seems like they did cross a line here that shouldn't have been crossed. They could have just offered the discount installation without getting into the whole accusations thing again, posted of private emails and worse yet posted an invoice with Max's signature on it and license plate number on it. That's what I'd want posted on the internet.
