XBS

iTrader: (29)

Just wanted to start a thread about diffrent EMS out there right now and maybe we can all decide what gives you the most for your money.

Lets start with the Uni-chip since thats what I currently have (APS TT)

PROS - Well its plug and play, pretty simple, basic and its works better than the emange blue, resolution is decent

CONS - Premative way of adjusting fuel and timing, needs to be tuned by authorized dealer, +/- method of controling timing and fuel

The Emanage Ultimate

PROS - afforable unit, great interface, user tunable, logging capabilities, full fuel control, good resolution

CONS - not plug and play, +/- method of controling timing, burns coil packs if igntion left on,

Z UTEC

PROS - Pretty good control over fuel and timing for a piggy back ( almost full control ) user tunable, decent price, knock amp availble. plug and play Overall good unit

Cons - Resolution isnt the best for cars over 11 psi or so, interface isnt to good, not the easiest to tune.

HKS F Con VPRO

PROS - arguablly the best EMS currently available, complete control over they engine, Standalone unit working in paralell to the stock ecu, very high resolution, alows your high performance engine to run as if it work stock, or better.

CONS - EXPENSIVE! only able to be tuned by V Pro dealers ( biggest turn off for me ) and did I mention its expensive? also tuning is about 1k most of the time.

Im sure there are others out there but those seem to be the mains ones, If anyone has anything to add or disagrees please let me know. I just want to get information posted up from people that actually know.

Since I dont like my Unichip I want to replace it and just wanted everyones feedback.

Thanks!

GurgenPB

iTrader: (2)

Man where do I start...

Instead let me add a few:

Magneti-Marelli
#1 (and I am saying this with no personal experience with the system). It beats out the motec in my book for the reasons given below (read the MOTEC comment)

MOTEC
#2 system. hteir V3 software is just out of this world, period. First and only to my knowledge to use a fully configuranle 4D chart format, insane. Tried and true.

Cons: Expensive, not readily suitable for CAN bus cars (as it stands now).

Had about an hour conversation with them and a motec dealer that adapts their systems t lexus cars. Bottom line...about $6500 needed in hardware alone (requires DBW interface, ignition modules, etc). It was basically designed for the old-school, non-CAN bus cars. From my converstion with them, it appeared as though they are not interested in doing model-specific adaptations, since given their prices, the sales of these units will be slow. Thae being sad, I am confident that with enough work, it can be made to work on this car. But given that the Magnetti-Morelli is KNOWN to work well on it already, I do not see a point in getting this.

HKS Fcon VPRO
#3 Probably the best bet now. But no end-user tunability nearly makes this a non-option at this point. If no better options come out for it, I will consider this option.

AEM EMS
#4 - wil be #3 if it can be made to work on our cars, whcih i am pretty confident is possible, and will be done so sooner rather than later.

Hydra
#5 This is the one to watch. A 350z unit is promised in october. We'll see. do not have any personal experience in this, but there is good feedback from end users of other cars. The upside is that this is a full standalone EMS, and will have DriveByWire standard for $1950. Not muc helse is known now. BTW, it had been reported that the software is not very consistent, but that seems to be an issue wth the older 2.1x versions, not the newer 2.5x.

UTEC
#6. The only reason that i would ever consider this unit is if nothing came out in the next 12 months, and I chose not to do the Fcon. I think it has several major, major flaws. First of all, 10 load points is joke. Second, a telnet interface is bigger joke. The onyl thing that it has going for it, the ONLY freakign thing, is that it has standalone timing control.

eManage Ultimate
#7 If the standlone timing feature ever comes out for this unit, thatn it would the best bang for your buck. Alas, the more I talk to them, the less optimistic i get about the feature's implementation. It is superior to the UTEC in nearly every other regard, imho.

Some others i would consider, but they are in the realm of the AEM, MoTeC, etc. i.e. not vehicle specific implementations exist for our cars. These are: AUtronic (excellent) and haltech. I would not consider any other unit for my car, except for one other one that is coming out, that I cannot talk about at thsi time. Really exciting stuff, and can very well climb to the top of this list VERY FAST.

HTH

Wired 24/7

iTrader: (2)

Good post, once we get some more replies I will copy it to the top 100 questions thread

EU pro - Target air/fuel (automatic feedback tuning) if you have wideband input
EU con - horrible engrish instruction manual, barely any support from greddy, not much support on the forums either...

booger

iTrader: (6)

Sound Performance ...has the AEM out ...dont they ?

Ive heard AEM has worked out the DBW but will not sell it because of liability issue's if for some reason the throttle sticks open . Dont know if it true or just a rumor .

mistaboosta

iTrader: (1)

I coudnt have agreed more...

chimmike

iTrader: (7)

shouldn't this be in the TUNING section to begin with?

350zDCalb

iTrader: (21)

Gurgen;

The UTEC interface is pathetic, 10 load sites is not ideal...but then again, when tuned properly, it is a SOLID tune...consistant and solid... like you said direct ingition timing control...and once dialed in, the tune DOESN'TY change... unlike the EU

-TODD

Mark-SGP-

iTrader: (2)

First off this is a HUGE topic in itself... Gurgen Good post... Magnetti Marelli...Uhhhhhh 30+ years in F1...That should say enough. The only other system with the features available from them is the PEC-TEL... They have suspension datalogging as well as too many others to mention...

MOTEC... Awesome system and does already work on the cars but, very expensive for the DBW interface & the CODE from them for that is HIGHLY gaurded...

Everyone already knows that we always suggest the VPRO for built setups running over 10PSI... The drivability is like the day you drove off the lot & the fuel economy is even better. the lack of tuners available is the only downfall...

The new HKS FCON IS system is another plug & play running in the 800.00 - 1400.00 region that is awesome as well for a piggyback but, uses the same software interface as the VPRO and needs a Pro dealer for tuning. With the introduction of the new FCON Navigators though, the HKS units now have the capability for fuel and timing TRIM maps to be tuned by anyone. The navigators display all of the engine sensors as well on screen & in the car.

Mark-SGP-

chimmike

iTrader: (7)

While the provided interface is sorry, there are others being developed that are much better.

Quamen

iTrader: (14)

I have always heard the TurboXS is fairly good at providing upgrade for their EMU's. Has anyone contacted them and complained about things such as the small amount of load points?

GurgenPB

iTrader: (2)

Mark...that's good to know. Many times it would be sufficient to tune via the trim maps...in fact many times that's what you do, as the base fuel map is the VE map that shouldn't change unless you are changing thigns that affect VE (cams, heads, valves, manifold). However, I just cannot stand being limited. I wish they had an option for end users to get the software if they took a class or passed a test or smth (wishful/silly thinking). I'll keep my eye open for that.

GurgenPB

iTrader: (2)

TOdd,

I think that the tune would be solid one any decent standalone system, just because it is not subject to change by the stock ecu. I do agree that it is good,. like i said in post, for that limited functionality...it's timign control is very precise, but imo 10 load points are truly a joke...i would be very careful tuning a high hp car even with 16 load points. Hence, i love the 32x32 maps of the fcon

Vader007

iTrader: (23)

Hey dont forget Cobb Tuning is working on a unit for our cars as we speak, not sure what type of control it will give us but its very popular in WRX market. I also have to believe that the cypher can be used to do more, if Technosquare and AAM can hack the factory code to reflash I'm sure we could use the cypher to adjust any parameter it can read. Just my thoughts!

Jerry

Sharif@Forged

iTrader: (92)

Gurgen, some of your points need some clarification. FYI: Gurgen and I are good friends, and we battle about EMS all the time.

The UTEC, although limited to 10 load columns isnt all that limiting. If you look at a typical WOT pass, you arent utilizing a whole lot of load sites, once peak boost is built. I tuned my engine with the UTEC to 15psi and 600whp, and Todd did the same thing with his. The power curves are perfectly smooth, and the control is outstanding. Engines run like champs. Sure, in a perfect world, I want more load sites, but in practice, it hasnt been a limiting factor at all. That said, the interface is crude, but once you get the hang of it, its very fast and with 100% true control over the engine, it cant be beat for the money.

That said, we are now HKS Pro-Dealers, so we'll certainly be using a lot more FCON's on customer cars. The FCON is hands down, the best EMS out there for the Z. Tuning tools, customization, and its fine tuning abilites are awesome. Drawback, as mentioned, is the lack of authrorized tuners, and no user tunability. But once they are tuned, you should never have to touch them again.

We used the Marelli on my car as well, and I tuned it at the 8psi level just to play around with it. Marelli is a F1 quality ECU, and offers rediculous amounts of control....almost too much for a street car. At the $5500-$6500 price tag, it will be the releam of the ultra high-end engine mastermind...but probably not suitable for the standard forged buildups that most people are doing.

The EU...we dont really actively push them anymore..becuase offset tuning is really horrible for high boost cars. At lower boost, EU or even a Split Second will get the job done just fine.

GurgenPB

iTrader: (2)

Hey buddy... I agree with you entirely. The way I spoke of the UTEC sounded worsethan my actual sentiment. It does have awesoem timing control, and as you mentioned to me in the past, it is very precise and consistent. I can see where ten load sites should be ok for most applications, but you'd have to agree that's not a pure/elegant approach. If oyu have a very high HP car that can be pushed to 24 psi of boost, i think you would require more load sites to allow for the car to run perfectly at every boost setting between 12 and 24 psi, assumign of course that you would need to dedicate at least 2-3 of the load sites to be below the level of your minimum boost setting (assumed here to be 12 psi) for boost transition and partial throttle tuning. This leaves only 7 sites for a 12-24 psi range. Now, if you've gota stock motor with 8-9 psi of max boost, than I agree that the UTEC is an excellent choice. I plan to run 16 psi (maybe 18) max with race gas/water injection. If I were to consider the UTEC, I would want to designate 0, 3, 6 (at an absolute minimum) for below-wastegate-setting (8.5 psi) range, so that leaves me with 7 load sites for 9 to 18 psi range. I am not even certain if the x/y axes values for load/rpm are defineable like they are in the EU, if not, then it's that much more limiting.

Certainly, EU had a lot of promise, wrt to standalone timing.. that is not goign to be reality this year imo. That being said, I am lookign for a way out now, but will not be making a move until hydra, cobb, and the third one that I mentioned above come out, then i will make a move. Offset tuning is getting ot be tricky on built motors, whereas it could suffice pretty well for a stock motor.

Let's talk soon, Sharif, call me.

Sharif@Forged

iTrader: (92)

You go it buddy!

You are absolutely correct in many ways. Boost transition is often the most challenging part of getting a crisp tune. More load points helps to alleviate those issues. The UTEC is not perfect, but better than anything else readily available, except for the FCON.

XBS

iTrader: (29)

Hopefully soon there will be more options available to us. I would like to thank everyone for thier post and contributions to this thread. Theres nothing better than being able to get a good discussion on the forums.

USED

iTrader: (12)

All EMS have their down sides. There is none perfect. That is what the factory ECU is for, but we gotta have boost!

Unichip is great for cars running around 10 PSI. I think the GReddy Emanage/EU falls into the same catagory. Both provide the same type of ignition timing control. The EU has much better software. If you run the proper diodes in line with the coils, the emanage/EU will not burn the coils.

UTEC is awesome for the price. Yea, the hyper terminal interface is less than desirable, and tuning can be time intensive. More resoution is always better, but as mentioned previously in this thread, once steady state boost is achieved injector load site column becomes constant. Timing control is perfect every time in open loop. N/A to boost transition is tricky to get optimal, but the problem as I see it is the inability to have different maps with different scaling for resolution. Every map has to follow the same constants, so if you want to tune for 15psi (pump fuel) and 24psi (race fuel), you have the 24psi resoultion for both maps. Again, I'll default to the cost of the UTEC. BTW, UTEC support is bar none.

I would love to get some exposure to the FCON pro V. I've heard nothing but good about it. Well, except for the price and end-user control. I have to call HKS. I've been dragging my feet too long.

I like AEM for the Supra and Hondas. The only complaint I have is there is too much tunabilty. It can be overly complex for a moderately modded car. We were promised an EMS for the Z/G years ago. I think there was too much liability on the CAN BUS system and safety for AEM. I know SP got it to work, but its expensive and still no ghost mapping/tracing! What's up with that?

I believe Hydra announced they were gonna have a stand alone for the Z/G last year or earlier (maybe two years ago). I don't know enough about their systems to comment here.

The MOTEC and MARELLI systems seem like strictly high end race set ups which is only like 5% of the users here.

punish_her

iTrader: (8)

Um there are a few other issues:

The target AF is not realy a pro unless you have the new module that inhibits feed back at lower RPMS. Mine actualy adjusts all weird and ****. It's been a pain in the @$$ so I quit using it until I get better info on how its used

The big problem is when you have it running its ok but you do a couple of high speed passes either on Dyno or the street, you stomp and go. Air increases and RPM increases, the pedals past activation limit so its tuning the AF. It does great. Well as you let up your foot it still retunes so you get all that you tuned writen over. You have to stop it it the Red line in 6th gear in order for it to be efficitve so A you either have a fearless friend who has no problem at doing 140+mph with out looking at the road or you do it on the dyno. Im guessing the Dyno is the cheaper way (speeding tickets and crashes). Who has realy gotten it to work reliably?

As for the coil packs if I rember correctly that issue was resolved in later itteration. Mine never fried packs and I've had it on quite a while during diffrent troubleshooting sessions.

There are many other great thing about it, like how many Greddy tuners are there compared to like Unichip or the like? Its pretty user friendly too, for those tune at home guys.

Carlitos

iTrader: (1)

UTEC all the way, and I have 729whp reasons to back it up.