UPDATE on alignment/scalloping issues.
11-23-2002, 03:21 PM
#1
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UPDATE on alignment/scalloping issues.
Raceboy made some comments in my other thread and lead me on a quest of my own to discover what exactly is happening to my front tires. What I've come up with is as follows:
The front tires are "feathering" on the inside edges because of an incorrect toe-in and possibly the camber angle, not alignment issues as I first supected. From the Discount Tire Web site...
Today at the Dallas Z meet I looked at six of seven cars, and guess what? All six cars showed feathering on the inside edges of the front tires. Once you get past 4,500 miles it's even more pronounced and you'll begin to hear the distinct rumble of the uneven contact patch hitting the pavement. ChinaClipper was there today and snapped a pic which I'll be looking for him to post a little later as a visual aid.
You might be asking what does all of this mean to me? Well, in a nutshell, it appears that this can be expected every 5,000 miles or so on every set of tires we purchase since according to the 350Z Service Manual, page FSU-6, Camber, Caster and Kingpin inclination angles CANNOT BE ADJUSTED. You don't even want to see the procedure for measuring the toe-in that the dealer has to go through. I doubt there's a dealer in the country that would even take the time to actually run through said procedure.
Michael (skidazzle) and I discussed this at length today and agreed that the negative camber engineered into the Z is a trade-off between cornerning performance and tire wear, but I don't like the idea of eating up a set of tires like this and listening to that ******** rumble in a daily driver.
BTW, the "pulling to the right" issues that some of you have may be due to unequal caster settings. Oh yeah, that's right, it's NOT ADJUSTABLE. Alignment won't fix this problem...
The front tires are "feathering" on the inside edges because of an incorrect toe-in and possibly the camber angle, not alignment issues as I first supected. From the Discount Tire Web site...
Toe
Viewed from above the vehicle, toe describes whether the fronts of the tires are closer (toe-in) or farther (toe-out) apart than the rears of the tires. The illustration below shows this relationship. Toe settings vary between front and rear wheel drive vehicles. In a front wheel drive vehicle, the front wheels try to pull toward each other when the vehicle is in motion, which requires a compensating toe-out setting. A rear wheel drive vehicle works just the opposite, necessitating a toe-in setting. Stated differently, toe is set to let the tires roll in parallel (at zero toe) when the vehicle is in motion.
Incorrect Toe Setting = Feathered wear across tread; raised tread block edges.
Viewed from above the vehicle, toe describes whether the fronts of the tires are closer (toe-in) or farther (toe-out) apart than the rears of the tires. The illustration below shows this relationship. Toe settings vary between front and rear wheel drive vehicles. In a front wheel drive vehicle, the front wheels try to pull toward each other when the vehicle is in motion, which requires a compensating toe-out setting. A rear wheel drive vehicle works just the opposite, necessitating a toe-in setting. Stated differently, toe is set to let the tires roll in parallel (at zero toe) when the vehicle is in motion.
Incorrect Toe Setting = Feathered wear across tread; raised tread block edges.
You might be asking what does all of this mean to me? Well, in a nutshell, it appears that this can be expected every 5,000 miles or so on every set of tires we purchase since according to the 350Z Service Manual, page FSU-6, Camber, Caster and Kingpin inclination angles CANNOT BE ADJUSTED. You don't even want to see the procedure for measuring the toe-in that the dealer has to go through. I doubt there's a dealer in the country that would even take the time to actually run through said procedure.
Michael (skidazzle) and I discussed this at length today and agreed that the negative camber engineered into the Z is a trade-off between cornerning performance and tire wear, but I don't like the idea of eating up a set of tires like this and listening to that ******** rumble in a daily driver.
BTW, the "pulling to the right" issues that some of you have may be due to unequal caster settings. Oh yeah, that's right, it's NOT ADJUSTABLE. Alignment won't fix this problem...
Last edited by droideka; 11-23-2002 at 03:25 PM.
11-23-2002, 04:03 PM
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Re: UPDATE on alignment/scalloping issues.
Originally posted by droidekaus
Michael (skidazzle) and I discussed this at length today and agreed that the negative camber engineered into the Z is a trade-off between cornerning performance and tire wear, but I don't like the idea of eating up a set of tires like this and listening to that ******** rumble in a daily driver.
Michael (skidazzle) and I discussed this at length today and agreed that the negative camber engineered into the Z is a trade-off between cornerning performance and tire wear, but I don't like the idea of eating up a set of tires like this and listening to that ******** rumble in a daily driver.
Man, that sucks major goat *****. I know early NSX's had this problem (owners were replacing tires every 5k or so miles) and Acura eventually added camber adjustment.
Are you going to swap the front tires (not rim & tire) left - right?
Michael.
11-23-2002, 04:17 PM
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Re: Re: UPDATE on alignment/scalloping issues.
Originally posted by Michael-Dallas
Thank God for cheap daily beaters.
Are you going to swap the front tires (not rim & tire) left - right?
Michael.
Thank God for cheap daily beaters.
Are you going to swap the front tires (not rim & tire) left - right?
Michael.
11-24-2002, 06:46 AM
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Oh man, this REALLY SUCKS!
I don't have my car yet, but I may cancel my order because of
this. Imagine what the tires will look like after 15000 miles.
This is ridiculous.
I don't have my car yet, but I may cancel my order because of
this. Imagine what the tires will look like after 15000 miles.
This is ridiculous.
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11-24-2002, 07:57 AM
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An aftermarket kit that lowers the car any amount would increase the negative camber and actually make the situation worse. Remember, the camber is NOT adjustable. You'd have to find a non-OEM camber correction kit to reverse the negative camber.
11-24-2002, 08:25 AM
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Is anyone contacting SOMEONE over this? Or should we all just sit back and blow millions (between us all) on tires every 5k. This is moronic and completely unacceptable.
11-24-2002, 08:40 AM
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I don't want to get too worked up over this until I see what the regional tech has to say on Tuesday, but if this is going to be happening every 5000 miles, I agree it is unacceptable. I put almost 25000 miles a year on my cars. I figured replacing all four tires every 15000 would be OK, but if I have to replace the fronts 4 times a year at a minimum of $500 per change, I will be getting rid if the car. This was somewhat acceptable on the NSX the first few years because the car was in a different class, but not for an entry level sports car.
Do Corvettes, S2000s, M3s etc have this issue as well??
If camber, caster and kingpin inclination are unadjustable, what is? Toe?
Again, not to be alarmist, but almost $4000 per year in tires is entirely unacceptable. There had better be a fix.
Do Corvettes, S2000s, M3s etc have this issue as well??
If camber, caster and kingpin inclination are unadjustable, what is? Toe?
Again, not to be alarmist, but almost $4000 per year in tires is entirely unacceptable. There had better be a fix.
11-24-2002, 08:51 AM
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Originally posted by droidekaus
An aftermarket kit that lowers the car any amount would increase the negative camber and actually make the situation worse. Remember, the camber is NOT adjustable. You'd have to find a non-OEM camber correction kit to reverse the negative camber.
An aftermarket kit that lowers the car any amount would increase the negative camber and actually make the situation worse. Remember, the camber is NOT adjustable. You'd have to find a non-OEM camber correction kit to reverse the negative camber.
the tein kits all have optional pillowball kits (and some come with them standard)... i think HKS, etc.. have the same options.
these allow camber adjustment from the top of the strut.
look here for more information:
http://www.tein.com/pumnt.html
m
EDIT: seems like this camber adjustment is only for macpherson setups...
Last edited by SKiDaZZLe; 11-24-2002 at 08:55 AM.
11-24-2002, 08:55 AM
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For what it is worth, aftermarket suspension band-aids should not be required. The car I traded in needed a suspension to handle well. I bought this car to avoid messing with the suspension because of the problems that always seem to crop up with modified suspensions.
I should not have to go through the hassle of buying aftermarket parts, installing them and getting the car realigned just so it doesn't eat tires at an alarming rate.
The service manager told me on the phone that I should expect this sort of thing from performance tires, so I am preparing myself for a fight on Tuesday. I am not happy.
I should not have to go through the hassle of buying aftermarket parts, installing them and getting the car realigned just so it doesn't eat tires at an alarming rate.
The service manager told me on the phone that I should expect this sort of thing from performance tires, so I am preparing myself for a fight on Tuesday. I am not happy.
11-24-2002, 08:58 AM
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bad news..
after looking at the installation instructions for the Z33, the tein kits do not add camber adjustment.
seems like we might need camber plates as a last alternative
m
after looking at the installation instructions for the Z33, the tein kits do not add camber adjustment.
seems like we might need camber plates as a last alternative
m
11-24-2002, 10:34 AM
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Im new that THIS particualar suspension setup. Ive lowered oodles of cars and a truck but what is this CAMBER PLATE?
Are you reffering to a piece of metal that can be put at the bottom of the strut to adjust the angle? Honestly i dont know ....
If this is ALL it is, then a moron could make one of those in about 37 seconds on ACAD, IDEAS,PRO-E , Catia whatever. I might be just the moron to save us all hahah.
Are you reffering to a piece of metal that can be put at the bottom of the strut to adjust the angle? Honestly i dont know ....
If this is ALL it is, then a moron could make one of those in about 37 seconds on ACAD, IDEAS,PRO-E , Catia whatever. I might be just the moron to save us all hahah.
11-24-2002, 11:21 AM
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Seems like they didn't want to fix things after the Z32. =(
Anyhow, is this ONLY with the 18" or 17" rims? I'd imagine that camber/toe-in issues would practically be even across the board but have to ask anyhow.
Anyhow, is this ONLY with the 18" or 17" rims? I'd imagine that camber/toe-in issues would practically be even across the board but have to ask anyhow.
11-24-2002, 11:29 AM
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Damm, the madness begins again with this company.
I just cut and paste what I wrote on the other post have to do with this issue. I hope Nissan is willing to "goodwill" a whole bunch of new tires for Z owners soon.
My comments from the other post:
"I hate to say it but this could be an inherent design flaw in the suspension for the Z, or simply being equipped with horrilbe tires. Back in '98 they had horrible tire cupping and out of round wear characteristics with Pathfinders and QX4's, and Nissan's Customer Service, was goodwilling new tires on a "case by case basis".
Yes, the pathfinder and QX4's are very different vehicles from the Z, however the OEM tires on these vehicles were Bridgestones as well, and the countermeasure "goodwill" tires that they were replacing for customers were Michelins. This resolved the issue slightly, however some vehicles still had the tire wear issue after this so Nissan ended up replacing at least two sets of tires with Michelins as goodwill. By the time you wore thru two sets of tires you ended up being out of warranty and then of course the owners are S.O.L. - **** out of luck.
Then Nissan points to the warranty booklet and says oh, well "as described in your owners' manual, tires are a wearable items and we can't be responsible, especially when Nissan does not even warrant the tires. . .please contact the tire manufacturer for assistance."
I went through this crap with my '98 Pathfinder SE 2wd.
Interesting enough, my 92 Maxima SE, I could never quite get the alignment done right either. I wonder if Nissan's simply have alignment problems from day one?
On a side note, I wonder if the fact that Bridgestone and Firestone are the same company have anything to do with the tires being of such shitty quality?"
I just cut and paste what I wrote on the other post have to do with this issue. I hope Nissan is willing to "goodwill" a whole bunch of new tires for Z owners soon.
My comments from the other post:
"I hate to say it but this could be an inherent design flaw in the suspension for the Z, or simply being equipped with horrilbe tires. Back in '98 they had horrible tire cupping and out of round wear characteristics with Pathfinders and QX4's, and Nissan's Customer Service, was goodwilling new tires on a "case by case basis".
Yes, the pathfinder and QX4's are very different vehicles from the Z, however the OEM tires on these vehicles were Bridgestones as well, and the countermeasure "goodwill" tires that they were replacing for customers were Michelins. This resolved the issue slightly, however some vehicles still had the tire wear issue after this so Nissan ended up replacing at least two sets of tires with Michelins as goodwill. By the time you wore thru two sets of tires you ended up being out of warranty and then of course the owners are S.O.L. - **** out of luck.
Then Nissan points to the warranty booklet and says oh, well "as described in your owners' manual, tires are a wearable items and we can't be responsible, especially when Nissan does not even warrant the tires. . .please contact the tire manufacturer for assistance."
I went through this crap with my '98 Pathfinder SE 2wd.
Interesting enough, my 92 Maxima SE, I could never quite get the alignment done right either. I wonder if Nissan's simply have alignment problems from day one?
On a side note, I wonder if the fact that Bridgestone and Firestone are the same company have anything to do with the tires being of such shitty quality?"
11-24-2002, 01:05 PM
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Re: Re: Re: UPDATE on alignment/scalloping issues.
Originally posted by MacGuru
Can you do that every 5k miles to create a (somewhat) even wear and will this affect the tire traction? I'm pretty much an everyday driver and want to maxmize the tire life. Thanks. -m
Can you do that every 5k miles to create a (somewhat) even wear and will this affect the tire traction? I'm pretty much an everyday driver and want to maxmize the tire life. Thanks. -m
11-24-2002, 01:14 PM
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Soooooooooo are we all going to just take it in the a$$? I didnt save up for THIS car just to be let down. This is just plain unnacceptable for any vehicle. Jesus even if I owned a Elantra and this happened I would throw a fit.
11-24-2002, 01:47 PM
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Re: Re: Re: Re: UPDATE on alignment/scalloping issues.
Originally posted by vin1024
RE040s are directional tires and cannot be swapped left right. My Maxima has done this to every set of tires since purchase. Nissan goodwilled me my first set of front tires...the tires I have on there now are cupped again and noisy as hell at low speeds...unlike the 350z, i can rotate front to back, if i do it every 1000 miles, i can push off the condition for a while...but who the hell wants to do that?
RE040s are directional tires and cannot be swapped left right. My Maxima has done this to every set of tires since purchase. Nissan goodwilled me my first set of front tires...the tires I have on there now are cupped again and noisy as hell at low speeds...unlike the 350z, i can rotate front to back, if i do it every 1000 miles, i can push off the condition for a while...but who the hell wants to do that?
