My BMV Vol. 6 is here...wow what a SHOCK!!!!
12-01-2002, 06:47 PM
#41
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Originally posted by r34 racer
Umm...no. Thats just taking it to extremes and it's making you sound foolish. If you want to have a decent argument then quit flaming and start making valid arguments. Otherwise you are just wasting all of our time. And frankly, in the real world, a metro cant pull on the vette if they were both racing. And if it did, yes, it would be faster in that race. It doesnt matter if the geo metro is slower ON AVERAGE. Chances are, you wont race the same car twice. Therefore, what matters is that it won, and shamed the z06 driver. So if you were to go out and burn a vette, would you tell all your friends that your car is a slow POS, or would you tell them you just dusted an vette? Magazine values are BEST times, not average times. How many reviews have you read where the writer specifically lists all his times? If you find one, i can guarantee that his average wont be near his max at all.
And next time you try to insult someone, please do try to be original. And it isnt hard to bang off good et's if you can shift and use a clutch.
Umm...no. Thats just taking it to extremes and it's making you sound foolish. If you want to have a decent argument then quit flaming and start making valid arguments. Otherwise you are just wasting all of our time. And frankly, in the real world, a metro cant pull on the vette if they were both racing. And if it did, yes, it would be faster in that race. It doesnt matter if the geo metro is slower ON AVERAGE. Chances are, you wont race the same car twice. Therefore, what matters is that it won, and shamed the z06 driver. So if you were to go out and burn a vette, would you tell all your friends that your car is a slow POS, or would you tell them you just dusted an vette? Magazine values are BEST times, not average times. How many reviews have you read where the writer specifically lists all his times? If you find one, i can guarantee that his average wont be near his max at all.
And next time you try to insult someone, please do try to be original. And it isnt hard to bang off good et's if you can shift and use a clutch.
I made a valid point that anything can happen on the street. Yes a 16 second car could beat an 11 second car. Does this happen often, probably not.
Again, if the driver of the M3 has average driving capablities they will beat a Z 9 out of 10 times.
You yourself said it isnt hard to bang off good et's, so why do you not believe the Z will get beat by the faster car?
12-01-2002, 06:47 PM
#42
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In straight line speed the M3 gas a definite advantage, but around the track the higher weight reduces that advantage. It is possible that with your everyday driver, the M3 will outhandle the Z by a good margin, even on a tight track, but is it so hard to believe that the lighter Z can outhandle the M3 on a tight track with an experienced driver? All I know is Bestmotoring has some of the top drivers and they were able to get the Z around the track faster than the M3. Obviously that doesn't mean the Z is the "better" car, but it does mean that the Z was faster on that day at that track with those drivers. It's not much, but it is still something.
If all we cared about was straight line speed, we should have all bought Mustang Cobras and been done with it. Obviously there is more to driving fun than pure power, skidpad numbers, and track times. So, while I whole heartedly agree that the M3 can be a faster car, I can easily believe that the Z was able to beat it under those conditions.
-D'oh!
If all we cared about was straight line speed, we should have all bought Mustang Cobras and been done with it. Obviously there is more to driving fun than pure power, skidpad numbers, and track times. So, while I whole heartedly agree that the M3 can be a faster car, I can easily believe that the Z was able to beat it under those conditions.
-D'oh!
12-01-2002, 07:17 PM
#43
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About time someone made some sense
another thing to consider and take this from someone with no track experience (i dont consider dragstrip "the track" i consider it a test and tune workshop unless your actually on a payroll)
there i said it i have no track experience is it that hard to admit things we may not know? ok sorry about that just tired of ppl lying about what they do and dont know.
anyways my point: from my experience driving cars there are cars that can be driven to a certain limit with certain techniques. however using differnt techniques the nature of the car changes and you can push it further. sometimes a driver's style can bring more out of a car than was previously though was there. but at the same time it can have the opposite effects. and make the car appear to "peak" out sooner.
This doesnt have much to do with how good a driver is. this is deeper. its how the driver and the car work togther.
in my opinion and of course i've had no tracktime. so maybe i'm completely off base?
but it does mean that the Z was faster on that day at that track with those drivers.
there i said it i have no track experience is it that hard to admit things we may not know? ok sorry about that just tired of ppl lying about what they do and dont know.
anyways my point: from my experience driving cars there are cars that can be driven to a certain limit with certain techniques. however using differnt techniques the nature of the car changes and you can push it further. sometimes a driver's style can bring more out of a car than was previously though was there. but at the same time it can have the opposite effects. and make the car appear to "peak" out sooner.
This doesnt have much to do with how good a driver is. this is deeper. its how the driver and the car work togther.
in my opinion and of course i've had no tracktime. so maybe i'm completely off base?
12-01-2002, 07:33 PM
#44
Originally posted by max2000jp
OK....How did magazine times get into this equation? You honestly need to quit reading so many and go to a track.
I made a valid point that anything can happen on the street. Yes a 16 second car could beat an 11 second car. Does this happen often, probably not.
Again, if the driver of the M3 has average driving capablities they will beat a Z 9 out of 10 times.
You yourself said it isnt hard to bang off good et's, so why do you not believe the Z will get beat by the faster car?
OK....How did magazine times get into this equation? You honestly need to quit reading so many and go to a track.
I made a valid point that anything can happen on the street. Yes a 16 second car could beat an 11 second car. Does this happen often, probably not.
Again, if the driver of the M3 has average driving capablities they will beat a Z 9 out of 10 times.
You yourself said it isnt hard to bang off good et's, so why do you not believe the Z will get beat by the faster car?
With respect to you analogy of 11 second vs 16 second cars, yes, i will agree that a 16 second car does not beat an 11 second car often...however this time we are comparing cars that are MUCH closer than 5 seconds apart. The Z is 13.8 and you claim the M3 is 13.2. Do you honestly believe that .6 second gap will hold on shabby roads with unequal drivers? And you also assume the M3 driver drives an smg, in which case there's no way he can mess up. A 6 speed e46 driver will be susceptible to the same shifting issues as a Z driver, bringing that gap even closer.
And frankly, i believe the Z does get beaten by m3's, however, i was just pointing out that you cannot make judgements based on numbers all the time in real world conditions. That was my original point, i see its been blown out of proportion.
12-01-2002, 08:00 PM
#45
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m3 not so fast
m3 is not that fast check it out fo yourselves....
the smg is even slower than manual
http://www.europeancarweb.com/tech/0212ec_bmwtech/
the smg is even slower than manual
http://www.europeancarweb.com/tech/0212ec_bmwtech/
12-01-2002, 08:08 PM
#46
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I know it burns .....
The Z kicked *** and there is a video to prove. It won't win all the time but on this video it just happened to win. Accept it, go to bed, wake up and go to work. It doesn't really change much in the end.
12-02-2002, 05:40 AM
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is it really that hard to comprehend...
This has to be the most ridiculous and admirable example of standing your ground I have ever seen in the history of ever....
But ignorance has no place when facts are evident. Apparently the M3 lovers (its obvious who you are) truely believe that an M3 is gonna go to a track and ever single time bust out the fastest ET or lap time. My guess is you could take an M3 to the track (1/4 or autox) and get beat by a 350z the first time out. Does that mean you arn't a competent driver? It could mean the Z driver has years of experience. M3 is a great car, but I'm gonna put my faith into a group that has experience racing and testing cars vs. some dude on a forum that finds it hard to believe that a $30000 sports car can come very close to his dream machine in performance. Hell, I'd take a $30000 Z and drop $10000 in mods, rent my buddy Shumacher for a day and toast your $55000 M3 every single time out, while im sitting in the stands eating hotdogs watching. Then take the extra $15000 home. Do you see where I am going with this....
Trav
But ignorance has no place when facts are evident. Apparently the M3 lovers (its obvious who you are) truely believe that an M3 is gonna go to a track and ever single time bust out the fastest ET or lap time. My guess is you could take an M3 to the track (1/4 or autox) and get beat by a 350z the first time out. Does that mean you arn't a competent driver? It could mean the Z driver has years of experience. M3 is a great car, but I'm gonna put my faith into a group that has experience racing and testing cars vs. some dude on a forum that finds it hard to believe that a $30000 sports car can come very close to his dream machine in performance. Hell, I'd take a $30000 Z and drop $10000 in mods, rent my buddy Shumacher for a day and toast your $55000 M3 every single time out, while im sitting in the stands eating hotdogs watching. Then take the extra $15000 home. Do you see where I am going with this....
Trav
12-02-2002, 11:34 AM
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Some BMW fans will never believe their automobiles can be beaten by other cars half their cost...
No flames intended as I deeply respect BMW's prestige and reputation, but somethings in life just don't go your way...
No flames intended as I deeply respect BMW's prestige and reputation, but somethings in life just don't go your way...
All I know is Bestmotoring has some of the top drivers and they were able to get the Z around the track faster than the M3. Obviously that doesn't mean the Z is the "better" car, but it does mean that the Z was faster on that day at that track with those drivers. It's not much, but it is still something.
12-02-2002, 01:02 PM
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You are ignorant, and should stop spouting off about something you obviously know nothing about.
The best motoring videos are made for ricers who like to stir the pot, nothing more.
12-02-2002, 07:10 PM
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I think the Best Motoring Vids are cool, but question their validity. I am not saying this particular test is in question, but this opinion was from others I have seen in the past.
12-03-2002, 04:30 AM
#53
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Originally posted by I want a 350Z
The M3 will kill the Z...Must have been one crappy *** driver...
The M3 will kill the Z...Must have been one crappy *** driver...
12-03-2002, 09:24 AM
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Originally posted by max2000jp
You are kidding right??? Look at the trap speeds and tell me the Z will pull on the E46 M3
You are kidding right??? Look at the trap speeds and tell me the Z will pull on the E46 M3
you're kidding me right? we're talkingabout TRACK driving...REAL track driving with TURNS...you know...like cornering....
Why are people so obsessed with Drag times? I STILL can't understand this phenomenon, and I am an American...
12-03-2002, 09:39 AM
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now I am annoyed at the lot of you...NOT ALL...but you drag race chronies...
Why in the hell did you buy the Z? I won't go into the many speculative reasons, but I bet it wasn't for Balance, power to weight ratio (which the Z suffers from slightly), Zero Lift, ease of driving, and the many technological enhancements that are DESIGNED to give you optimum cornering speeds, exit speeds, and overall control, at a certain skill level and price point.
The Z is NOT the best car in the worl, but it certainly has some hard lined merits. I have passed it up as a car I want to own, but it doesn't stop me from realizing it's potential and the things it does well, are done very well. I think the Z suffers a little bit from being overweight, and the fact that it was designed for a certain demographic, which in turn makes it drive the way it does. But it's still a bargain of a sporty car.
Why is it that just about every other place in the world, a "TRACK" time is referred to as a " LAP " time, where times are measured even in certain sections of a track. Exit speeds, cornering balance, brake balance, brake fade, turn in, line, etc. are what REAL drivers are concerned with.
Trap speeds...sheesh...
The Reason the M3 did not do so hot, is because mainly it is not designed for an all out track driving experience. It is a GT that has the added benefits of the M treatment. Plain and simple...it's also over weight. The M3's loss was NOT due to "crappy *** drivers"
where do you rank: http://www.nexttestdrive.net/p_of_speed.htm
/rant
edit: to each his own I guess...but at least know what you are talking about. We are talking about TRACK times and TRACK performance in this thread...why drag racing came into it I'll never know.
Why in the hell did you buy the Z? I won't go into the many speculative reasons, but I bet it wasn't for Balance, power to weight ratio (which the Z suffers from slightly), Zero Lift, ease of driving, and the many technological enhancements that are DESIGNED to give you optimum cornering speeds, exit speeds, and overall control, at a certain skill level and price point.
The Z is NOT the best car in the worl, but it certainly has some hard lined merits. I have passed it up as a car I want to own, but it doesn't stop me from realizing it's potential and the things it does well, are done very well. I think the Z suffers a little bit from being overweight, and the fact that it was designed for a certain demographic, which in turn makes it drive the way it does. But it's still a bargain of a sporty car.
Why is it that just about every other place in the world, a "TRACK" time is referred to as a " LAP " time, where times are measured even in certain sections of a track. Exit speeds, cornering balance, brake balance, brake fade, turn in, line, etc. are what REAL drivers are concerned with.
Trap speeds...sheesh...
The Reason the M3 did not do so hot, is because mainly it is not designed for an all out track driving experience. It is a GT that has the added benefits of the M treatment. Plain and simple...it's also over weight. The M3's loss was NOT due to "crappy *** drivers"
where do you rank: http://www.nexttestdrive.net/p_of_speed.htm
/rant
edit: to each his own I guess...but at least know what you are talking about. We are talking about TRACK times and TRACK performance in this thread...why drag racing came into it I'll never know.
Last edited by scottjua; 12-03-2002 at 09:54 AM.
12-03-2002, 11:24 AM
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12-03-2002, 01:33 PM
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Originally posted by scottjua
you're kidding me right? we're talkingabout TRACK driving...REAL track driving with TURNS...you know...like cornering....
Why are people so obsessed with Drag times? I STILL can't understand this phenomenon, and I am an American...
you're kidding me right? we're talkingabout TRACK driving...REAL track driving with TURNS...you know...like cornering....
Why are people so obsessed with Drag times? I STILL can't understand this phenomenon, and I am an American...
I have been to a "real track" a few times, have you?
12-03-2002, 01:41 PM
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perhaps you are right on a one sided point of view. The M3 may be quicker than a Z in a straight line...and I'm not on the "defend the Z at all costs" bandwagon...but the Z clearly has an edge over the M3 on a "road course" due to balance and weight. There are more factors than that obviously, but saying the drivers were crappy and saying the Z could never have beaten the M3 in this originally discussed environment leaves alot to be disputed.
If the topic of conversation was "who would win in a drag race?" then your comments have more value to the thread. In this particular venue, they don't hold any water.
see my above longer post for more on my opinions on why the Z was faster given the environment and tasks it had to perform.
If the topic of conversation was "who would win in a drag race?" then your comments have more value to the thread. In this particular venue, they don't hold any water.
see my above longer post for more on my opinions on why the Z was faster given the environment and tasks it had to perform.
12-03-2002, 01:57 PM
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but the Z clearly has an edge over the M3 on a "road course" due to balance and weight.
In this case the M3 is a faster car in every measurable way -- period.
12-03-2002, 02:07 PM
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I've read through most of these posts and I have to say, while I do understand loyalty and pride in the type of car you guy chose, I think this one is a bit blind.
If you check the fastest lap times on the S2000, M3 and the 350Z, believe the 350Z was the slowest. HOWEVER, because there was more than 1 lap, the 350Z beat the other 2 cars. I think this says something about the car.
The 350Z isnt the best car but rather the easiest to drive consistently at the limit paritally as a result of the understeer that was dialed in. The S2000, due to it's tailhappiness, and the M3 due to it's weight are harder to keep consistent.
Of the 3:
Best Handling at 5/10's to 8 or 9/10th: 1. S2000 2. M3 3. Z (weight and the german's way of making great steering feedback hurts the Z here, respectively)---this is going off what I have heard and my experiences from the S2000, the 330CI, and the G35 sedan I have driven.
Fastest in a straight line: 1. M3 ( note: I saw someone bring up the fact that the 350Z would be faster in the higher gears because of the greater torque. THIS IS NOT TRUE. The M3 due to it's broader powerband *higher rev limiter and torque doesnt fall off at 5000 rpms like the Z does* can stay in the lower gears longer than the Z can. This means greater torque multiplication at the wheels compared to the Z. Engine hp or engine tq dont matter, it's torque and the size of the torque band AFTER being multiplied by the gear ratios that matters in acceleration.) 2. Z
3. S2000
Best Handling at the limit: 1. Z, by default of not snaping into oversteer and not being too overweight, helps the Z be more consistent 2. S2000 3. M3
The Z is like a tweener. It doesnt have the rawness of the S2000 but it's faster in a straight line. It doesnt keep up with an M3 in a strightline but it handles better AT the limit. I hope everyone at least acknowledges that all three cars are great cars and that no owner should feel like they got a bad deal with any of these cars.
If you check the fastest lap times on the S2000, M3 and the 350Z, believe the 350Z was the slowest. HOWEVER, because there was more than 1 lap, the 350Z beat the other 2 cars. I think this says something about the car.
The 350Z isnt the best car but rather the easiest to drive consistently at the limit paritally as a result of the understeer that was dialed in. The S2000, due to it's tailhappiness, and the M3 due to it's weight are harder to keep consistent.
Of the 3:
Best Handling at 5/10's to 8 or 9/10th: 1. S2000 2. M3 3. Z (weight and the german's way of making great steering feedback hurts the Z here, respectively)---this is going off what I have heard and my experiences from the S2000, the 330CI, and the G35 sedan I have driven.
Fastest in a straight line: 1. M3 ( note: I saw someone bring up the fact that the 350Z would be faster in the higher gears because of the greater torque. THIS IS NOT TRUE. The M3 due to it's broader powerband *higher rev limiter and torque doesnt fall off at 5000 rpms like the Z does* can stay in the lower gears longer than the Z can. This means greater torque multiplication at the wheels compared to the Z. Engine hp or engine tq dont matter, it's torque and the size of the torque band AFTER being multiplied by the gear ratios that matters in acceleration.) 2. Z
3. S2000
Best Handling at the limit: 1. Z, by default of not snaping into oversteer and not being too overweight, helps the Z be more consistent 2. S2000 3. M3
The Z is like a tweener. It doesnt have the rawness of the S2000 but it's faster in a straight line. It doesnt keep up with an M3 in a strightline but it handles better AT the limit. I hope everyone at least acknowledges that all three cars are great cars and that no owner should feel like they got a bad deal with any of these cars.