Nobility vs. Utility, & how I think Nissan should do it
12-03-2002, 09:11 PM
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Nobility vs. Utility, & how I think Nissan should do it
This is in reply to a post by JmanZ regarding the bootlegging of service CD's. I think that it is noble of you to advocate the copyright protection of this item, and I understand that as a moderator of this site, you have every right to police what information is shared amongst it's subscribers.
First off, I don't bootleg service CD's. Whether or not I own one is irrelevant as well. What I do have a problem with is the fact that Nissan is choosing to price this item in excess of $300. I do own a printed copy of the factory service manual for my Z32. I bought it on eBay for $55. If I were to order it from Nissan, it would cost about double that. I don't consider that to be an exoribitant price. I do consider $300 to be exorbitant for a manual that is essentially the same size, and contains essentially the same information, and costs them about the same to print, but is upgraded for the new model.
We live in a market-driven society, i.e. Capitalist society. Capitalism provides people the impetus to utilize resources in order to generate profit. Within this framework, there are those who choose to exploit, and those who choose to be exploited. When you add to this formula the Internet, the information superhighway, you create new ways to exploit information as a marketable item. Additionally, technology has evolved to the point where the means to create and share this item are within the budget of everybody. And the media, by which I mean the form that it takes, in this case a recordable CD, has also become so affordable that it is ridiculous. When you add these elements up, they equal one thing: Anyone with a CD burner can copy this item, and exploit it for profit in a marketplace where there is a demand for it. We can look at the whole downloadable MP3 scenario for a parallel to this. However, there is an essential difference: That is the transfer of an ARTISTIC piece of software with no compensation to the creator thereof. Whereas, this is the transfer of a technical/informational piece of software, and there has been compensation: The initial purchase. A more accurate comparison could be made with the home-recording scenario, which is a hot topic among those who make and sell CD's-the music companies. They don't want you to be able to make a copy of their software to give it to your friends, because that is one less unit that they MIGHT sell.
But enough about comparisons-Here's how they should have done it. Because these manuals are filled with arcana and esoterica that most buyers will never use (I mean, how many people out there are planning to tear down the valvetrain on their 350's soon?), why not offer sections of this manual, as downloadable PDF's, for say, $3-$5 for certain sections, based upon size/difficulty/demand, on a web site dedicated to this, and linked to Paypal or some type of money-collection service? I'm sure that most owners would love to have the General Information section, or those who change their own oil would gladly pay $3 for the Lubrication section, and so on. That would generate enough profit to maintain the site, and pay for the technical writing, etc, that went into the creation of the manual in the first place. Instead, they force people to buy it all for $300+, thereby creating a booming market for bootleggers. I say they cut their own throats by taking that approach.
One last comparison. The French revolution. Wherein the common people, by the need for utility, banded together and crushed the Nobility. Of course, their utility was the need to eat, where ours is a need for information. But the message is the same: Long live Utility, and death to Nobility!
First off, I don't bootleg service CD's. Whether or not I own one is irrelevant as well. What I do have a problem with is the fact that Nissan is choosing to price this item in excess of $300. I do own a printed copy of the factory service manual for my Z32. I bought it on eBay for $55. If I were to order it from Nissan, it would cost about double that. I don't consider that to be an exoribitant price. I do consider $300 to be exorbitant for a manual that is essentially the same size, and contains essentially the same information, and costs them about the same to print, but is upgraded for the new model.
We live in a market-driven society, i.e. Capitalist society. Capitalism provides people the impetus to utilize resources in order to generate profit. Within this framework, there are those who choose to exploit, and those who choose to be exploited. When you add to this formula the Internet, the information superhighway, you create new ways to exploit information as a marketable item. Additionally, technology has evolved to the point where the means to create and share this item are within the budget of everybody. And the media, by which I mean the form that it takes, in this case a recordable CD, has also become so affordable that it is ridiculous. When you add these elements up, they equal one thing: Anyone with a CD burner can copy this item, and exploit it for profit in a marketplace where there is a demand for it. We can look at the whole downloadable MP3 scenario for a parallel to this. However, there is an essential difference: That is the transfer of an ARTISTIC piece of software with no compensation to the creator thereof. Whereas, this is the transfer of a technical/informational piece of software, and there has been compensation: The initial purchase. A more accurate comparison could be made with the home-recording scenario, which is a hot topic among those who make and sell CD's-the music companies. They don't want you to be able to make a copy of their software to give it to your friends, because that is one less unit that they MIGHT sell.
But enough about comparisons-Here's how they should have done it. Because these manuals are filled with arcana and esoterica that most buyers will never use (I mean, how many people out there are planning to tear down the valvetrain on their 350's soon?), why not offer sections of this manual, as downloadable PDF's, for say, $3-$5 for certain sections, based upon size/difficulty/demand, on a web site dedicated to this, and linked to Paypal or some type of money-collection service? I'm sure that most owners would love to have the General Information section, or those who change their own oil would gladly pay $3 for the Lubrication section, and so on. That would generate enough profit to maintain the site, and pay for the technical writing, etc, that went into the creation of the manual in the first place. Instead, they force people to buy it all for $300+, thereby creating a booming market for bootleggers. I say they cut their own throats by taking that approach.
One last comparison. The French revolution. Wherein the common people, by the need for utility, banded together and crushed the Nobility. Of course, their utility was the need to eat, where ours is a need for information. But the message is the same: Long live Utility, and death to Nobility!
12-03-2002, 10:42 PM
#2
It's Nissan's intellectual property, so they have the right to sell it for whatever they want.
I'm sure they're just starting the price off high to get all the fools to buy it, then they'll lower to the next price point, and the next batch of slightly less foolish people will buy it, until it's so cheap I might even consider it (highly unlikely because I'm so cheap).
We can send them letters to say something like:
"Dear Nissan, I am extremely dissatisfied with your policy of setting a ridiculously inflated price on your electronic 350Z manual. I will not purchase the item at this price, and I find it thoroughly repulsive that you would treat loyal customers this way by monopolizing information about an automobile I have already purchased in good faith."
When enough people wise up, they'll have to lower the price.
I'm sure they're just starting the price off high to get all the fools to buy it, then they'll lower to the next price point, and the next batch of slightly less foolish people will buy it, until it's so cheap I might even consider it (highly unlikely because I'm so cheap).
We can send them letters to say something like:
"Dear Nissan, I am extremely dissatisfied with your policy of setting a ridiculously inflated price on your electronic 350Z manual. I will not purchase the item at this price, and I find it thoroughly repulsive that you would treat loyal customers this way by monopolizing information about an automobile I have already purchased in good faith."
When enough people wise up, they'll have to lower the price.
12-03-2002, 11:07 PM
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The reason Nissan's selling that for $300 is the same reason that CD's are still $18.00 and Microsoft Office is $450... because most people will steal or copy the info illegally so the ones that follow the rules pick up the tab for the rest... just like car insurance...
12-04-2002, 05:24 AM
#4
Thats BS Nizl.
Because if the CD was reasonably priced (like $50) I would buy it from Nissan. As it is, I wont be getting one at all. If so many people are willing to spend about $40 for one (what the avg. Ebay auction is ending at), then why doesnt Nissan just sell it for that and end the bootlegging.
Because if the CD was reasonably priced (like $50) I would buy it from Nissan. As it is, I wont be getting one at all. If so many people are willing to spend about $40 for one (what the avg. Ebay auction is ending at), then why doesnt Nissan just sell it for that and end the bootlegging.
12-04-2002, 11:37 AM
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There are two issues here:
First, the manual is Nissan's copyrighted property. Anyone that copies it and sells/distributes it without Nissan's permission is breaking the law. End of issue.
Second is the price. It is not in Nissan's best interest to make manuals available. They would rather that owners are ignorant and take their cars to the dealerships. There is absoultly no incentive to offer the manuals at cheap prices. Also, with the complexity of cars today, not many people are going to buy the manuals anyway. This lowers demand which also increases price (economics 101). I have a manual, and spent around $225, not $300+, so your pricing is a bit off. This is pricy, but not out of line. Manuals have always been expensive. Its the info in the manual that drives the price, not the printing costs. Based on past vehicle ownership, the manual will more than pay for itself over the life of the car by allowing me to troubleshoot and problem solve the small things that go wrong, and also by providing guidence for assembly and disassembly for modifications.
This is a capitalistic economy, and there are plenty of folks that will pay the going rate, and Nissan probably doesn't care if they sell any. As far as bootlegging, as a software developer my views are pretty strong on that matter, and I back Jman's position 100%. Just because a product isn't priced reasonably doesn't mean its alright to steal it (BTW, I understand that you were not suggesting that is was OK to do so).
First, the manual is Nissan's copyrighted property. Anyone that copies it and sells/distributes it without Nissan's permission is breaking the law. End of issue.
Second is the price. It is not in Nissan's best interest to make manuals available. They would rather that owners are ignorant and take their cars to the dealerships. There is absoultly no incentive to offer the manuals at cheap prices. Also, with the complexity of cars today, not many people are going to buy the manuals anyway. This lowers demand which also increases price (economics 101). I have a manual, and spent around $225, not $300+, so your pricing is a bit off. This is pricy, but not out of line. Manuals have always been expensive. Its the info in the manual that drives the price, not the printing costs. Based on past vehicle ownership, the manual will more than pay for itself over the life of the car by allowing me to troubleshoot and problem solve the small things that go wrong, and also by providing guidence for assembly and disassembly for modifications.
This is a capitalistic economy, and there are plenty of folks that will pay the going rate, and Nissan probably doesn't care if they sell any. As far as bootlegging, as a software developer my views are pretty strong on that matter, and I back Jman's position 100%. Just because a product isn't priced reasonably doesn't mean its alright to steal it (BTW, I understand that you were not suggesting that is was OK to do so).
12-04-2002, 02:55 PM
#7
Originally posted by nizl
The reason Nissan's selling that for $300 is the same reason that CD's are still $18.00 and Microsoft Office is $450... because most people will steal or copy the info illegally so the ones that follow the rules pick up the tab for the rest... just like car insurance...
The reason Nissan's selling that for $300 is the same reason that CD's are still $18.00 and Microsoft Office is $450... because most people will steal or copy the info illegally so the ones that follow the rules pick up the tab for the rest... just like car insurance...
Seriously, do you think they expect to make any serious money on shop manuals? What percentage of buyers do you think will even want them? I'd bet it is single digits. Got to remember, the average guy or gal buys the car and drives it. Most do not hang out on car nut forums, or have any desire to ever turn a wrench.
I agree the price is way out of hand, but that doesn't give me an excuse to pirate it. On the other hand, if I buy a Z, I'm going to try my damndest to get the dealer to give me a copy to close the deal.
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12-04-2002, 03:26 PM
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If nissan was concerned, wouldn't they track down the people selling them on ebay and make them stop? Apparently, Nissan doesn't care, because they have been available for a while now.
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