No, i am agreeing that YOU should not own a firearm because YOU have no self control. If you don't want the temptation of shooting someone because YOU get pissed, YOU do not need a firearm.

I am saying that in court, if you kill someone with a bat, it is the same as killing someone with a firearm. The law looks at them the same, as a deadly weapon.

Next time you get pulled over, jump out of the vehicle with a bat and see if they don't treat you the same way as having a firearm.

A firearm is a last means of saving your life, if you have no choice but do or die, I am going to do. I have been in several situations where it did save my life and the life of my significant other. I agree, if you do not want to own one, DO NOT. If at any time an officer saves your life with his firearm, or a civie for that matter. You had better be glad they don't think like some of you.

Purchasing a firearm DOES NOT admit you live in fear, it admits you are one of the few responsible human beings that agrees to take your life and the lives around you into your own hands and will do so to save the life of said humans. I don't live in fear but i know damn well that the world is NOT a safe place to live. I would rather have than have not.

 

Wolverinut, I interpreted your post the same way as DayBlueZ, which is that you were stating that you personally would not carry a gun because you are "hot-natured" and might be tempted to use it for something other than defense of life or limb. Some people are like that.

The beauty of the responsibility of carrying a weapon is that it reminds you to NEVER be an aggressor, but gives you peace of mind if you are ever unfortunate enough to be the aggressee.

 

Why? Whats the point? I live in a nice part of OC. LoL

 

In many states a bat is considered a deadly weapon and one laying in you front seat WILL get the attention of a cop as will a 4 cell maglite (speaking from my past)

9mm Stainless Steel Beretta 92F Vertech here and I love it. Its real easy to unload the clip

 

This is a free country,do whatever you think is right. And no i am not try to PUSSIFY any member here at the Z forum.Be cool.

 

This is a free country.Do whatever you think is right.And be cool.Me/family/friends are come first evrything else is second.I will kill somebody if i really have to, no hesitate.Be professional.

 

Remember now.... you are only justified in using lethal force only if you "feared for your life" or that of another person" Never, never apologize for defending yourself. If you are involved in a shooting incident, check yourself for injuries, check and secure all weapons involved, don't touch any evidence and secure the scene. Call 911 and put your weapon away. do not argue with the police and do as you are told to avoid being shot by the cops. Make sure you do not make any statements (including the media)without the presence of your attorney.
Prepare to mortgage your house to pay for your defense......if you cannot or will not follow these steps...Don't carry or use a weapon of any sort.

 

WARNING, MY OPINION FOLLOWS:

If you think you'll have issues with yourself after killing someone while justifiably protecting your life or your family's, hell...any innocent person's life, then you had issues before you killed the person. In other words, if you can't seem to recognize the reality of the situation and deal with the outcome that is more beneficial for the person(s) that are in the right, you void your right to protest the aggresor's actions. Basically, you probably haven't lived a life that has enough validity too motivate you to ensure the longevity and continuation of it. That also can be said in relation to things or persons that you value. Hence, you may not value your life or the life of an innocent person who's life you can most likely ensure to continue. Bottomline, you have issues now and you obviously will after you do or don't react in a situation where you are faced with the decision to live, let live, or die.

 

It's not what you KNOW, it's what you can PROVE.

If you drop some person that is coming at you with a knife, then he/she won't be able to speak in defense of him/herself. At that point, the facts are undeniable. That person is laying on the ground dead with a knife in his hand or in close proximity. You are justified in your actions as far as the evidence is concerned. If the result is different from this, you'll have EVEN MORE explaining to do.

If the weapon has to come out of the holster, be prepared to finish the job or else the prosecution can place doubt into what you thought was an "imminent threat".

Dead men don't talk. Period. Sorry, but the system is designed this way. I just work the system as it is. And if someone gave me legal justification to stop them from doing something harmful to me, I'll do what I need to do without a seconds hesitation.

 

during any confrontation when you think you or some love ones are in imminent danger that you had to pull out your concealed weapon, you've reached "THE POINT OF NO RETURN". When you shoot - make sure you ONLY shoot to kill. if your good with handguns, do a double tab to the center mass and one to the head.
Remember when you take a life, it will haunt you for the rest of your life. Be prepare to deal with post traumatic stress. You will never be the same person.

 

Guess when we read about one of you shooting someone, because you feel threatened, and it turns out to be you really didn't need to, we will know who has no self-control, eh?

Thank you for the clarification. Yes, the law does look at murder, regardless of the weapon, as murder. However, the law looks at a gun as much more dangerous then a bat, which is why some areas require registration of a hand gun, and never of bats. Therefore, no, the law does NOT consider guns the same as bats.

And again, you can own a hand gun, and not take it in your car, and I have never once said anything about owning a hand gun, only taking one in your car. So if you could quit confusing the two, it would be appreciated.

Lastly, I never said owning a hand gun means you live in fear.

I think a lot depends on where you live. I have never, in my life, needed a gun for self-defense. Apparently, wherever it is you live, DayBlueZ, you do. So, the situation for you is different then me.

 

You will be arrested for murder or homicide, not murder or homicide with a pistol, baseball bat, or your hands. The police routinely shoot lots of people armed with knives, baseball bats, and concrete trowels. The standard is deadly force, not is the weapon a gun. You don't have to pull out a knife to counter a knife, a pistol to counter a pistol, or a sword to counter a sword - that's an urban myth. All three weapons are concidered deadly force in the eyes of the law.

If you carry make sure that you are technically proficient with your weapon, that it's well maintained, and that you know beyond a shadow of a doubt when you can and can not shoot.

When I ran a US Navy ship we had armed sentries and I would test each and every armed watch stander as to when he or she could and could not shoot someone. They would be required to repeat back a paragraph of rote learned conditions ... and then I would give them various scenarios and ask them shoot/don't shoot. I have drilled myself a hundred times a month for years with the same shoot/don't shoot questions.

The bottom line is that you have to be rational and in control of yourself at all times. If that's not you you have no right (with a small r) to be armed. If you're a hot head, a drunk, or even one who loses control once in a while, then you ought to not be armed.

 

Agreed.

I would also add that once the threat is no longer a threat that you render first aid and have 9-11 send an ambulance. Make sure that the 9-11 operator knows what the good guys are wearing/look like and that the bad guy is the one that got shot.

 

Good info guys. All of these tidbits are why it's important to get educated by taking a class in your state that is specifically tailored to concealed carry. A good class should take several days going over law, process and scenarios. Weapons handling is obviously very important, but the seconds leading up to it are equally as important, especially if you survive the ordeal.

 

DayBlueZ, question for you. When you had to use a gun in self-defense, was it a gun that was in your car?

Also, people, let me give clarification on my standpoint. Let's say you are driving along, and you somehow **** someone off, just like what happened in the original post on this thread. Now, this person that just got pissed off, comes up to your car with a crowbar and starts hitting your windows with it. You have a gun, and decide to pull it out and point it at him, just to warn him off. He then goes back to his car, THE HOT-HEAD, grabs his gun, and starts walking back. What are you going to do? Shoot him or drive off? I would drive off. Oh, wait, that is what he did in the first place isn't it? So, he did not even need a gun, did he. But, if he would have had a gun, he may have chosen the path of pulling it out and shooting him instead.

Again, I do not think you need a gun, in your car. You can always just drive off. Do I think there may be good reason to have a gun in your house? Yes.

 

i have a rifle but thats it =/ (for the shooting range)

 

So, from what you are saying, you only need a firearm in your home? And no place else? Because if you plan on taking it with you, YOU HAVE TO TAKE IT IN YOUR CAR! You are 10 times more likely to be assaulted on the street than in your home. Home invasions rarely happen. Street crime happens everyday.

The fear thing was not aimed at you, it was aimed at a previous post.

Yes, it was in my vehicle and when i exited the vehicle, i carried it with me. I don't carry in my car, i carry on my person. When i enter the car i take it out and put it in the vehicle because it's uncomfortable. Where i go, it goes. I am NEVER without a weapon. I always have a knife with me if i don't have my firearm. I have taken Edged weapons classes and handgun classes. Although i haven't been recently, until last year, i went to the range 3 times a week. I have owned many handguns, rifles, machine guns and silencers.

Sorry, but, if a freak comes up to my car with a crowbar, he is a shot son of a *****. He can easily kill you in your vehicle with a crowbar. There was a case here in AL where a biker was shot when he stopped at a red light and approached a vehicle and took his helmet off and smashed the driver side window. The occupant shot him and it was justified. Lesson:? Don't F*%K around with people, they may have a firearm. Leave the road rage to the kids and leave every one alone.

I have drawn my weapon 3 times. Once at East Lake park, when confronted by 4 or more guys wanting to have a little fun with my GF. Once when i was parking on a street to go into a bar, guy came up to me asking me for money then started reaching in his pocket. And once while i was working when an guy approached me with a firearm in his waistband and told me he was going to kill me. I drove away then because i could. If he would have reached for it, i would have shot him.

When it comes down to it, if you feel more comfortable having someone else take care of you and your loved ones, go ahead. I'll do it for myself.

So, Q for you. You are going to Wal-mart with your GF or wife. A van pulls up and snatches you both. They take you to and alley and have fun with your spouse and beat you around. Then say i walk up on you in that alley, would you like me to take YOUR STANCE ON FIREARMS or MINE?

And i agree with you Paul 100%. The shoot don't shoot scenario helps so much with target identification that it IS A MUST. It helps you with both acquisition and identification.

 

-my advice just get a gun/dont ever leave it in the car ( its not a mod to the car ) /be a responsible owner ( like paul says it takes time to know when to shoot or not ..self control and common sense ...) / ...


p.s i think if someone really wants to steal or harm you or your car the risk can only be decreased but not tottaly eliminated based on so many variables and factors...so is it worth it to carry around another item you always have to be aware of like a keychain or cellphone...thats up to you...no matter if its a light handgun or a heavy machineg you will always and should be mindful of it....

 

this might interest some people out there.

few years back while in a strike fighter community based in lemoore...a few people i know went on a detachment to fallon nevada..on the first day off some guys in a typical navy way got drunk got in a truck went shooting/hunting...

...shot rabbits in the dessert then piled them up/then shot the coyotes taht came to eat the rabbits/then shot some mnore...cycle went on till there was a big pile of meat in the mid of nowhere...they get bored started heading home ....still drunk and still having some ammo ( not gov. ammo of course )
they looked for something to shoot ( and yes there was a lot of rednecks in the truck )...they find a cow on the way....guess what..no... drunk boys tip cows...drunk petty officers who work 24 straight hours on then drink and rest then go back to work the next 24 and dont want the rounds to go to waste can only do one thing....and so goes poor betsy...a few rounds of slugs and burst shells made sure it went down..

the guys who did this were somewhat punished..and the farmer got paid for his loss...taxpayers money.

the lesson of the story nothing ..i dont know just wanted to tell the story of wrongful use...

 

[QUOTE=Wolverineut]Guess when we read about one of you shooting someone, because you feel threatened, and it turns out to be you really didn't need to, we will know who has no self-control, eh?QUOTE]

Exactly, but the justification is built into the law in the form of the shooter's assessment of iminent danger. You're stating the above scenario somewhat like this:

1)One of us shoots someone else
2)because we felt threatened
3)but we didn't need to shoot
4)we now have proven our lack of self-control

Allow me to disect it even further, only because I disagree about the lack of self control. This time though, I'll be using my "reality scalpal". Step 1 of your scenario is a dependant variable and will most likely be a rare thing (which doesn't take anything away from your scenario), however if it happens, then so be it. Step one depends on a myriad of things in order to have legitimacy: Do we even own a gun, is it available on a normal basis, is it available at the time, so on and so forth.

So far, up to this point it's still up in the air if we have self control or not. Step 2 is also a variable that is dependant. For example, it (the legitimacy of your scenario) depends on our current sanity, our sobriety, etc., things along those lines and more. The key thing though when saying "you" and directing that to us is that many of the posters here that oppose your view have openly said that we have training and valid permits. Ok, so back to the disection and unfortunately, it's about here where it stops because the law that matters is the court of law and not what you think or even how you interpret it and the definition of self-control and it's application to your scenario. The law says a person can shoot another if they feel an iminent threat or danger that may cause loss of life, roughly speaking. With that said, your scenario has been proven to be not worth much. Mostly because, again, it's not your interpretation of iminent threat, it's the shooter's. Allow me to throw out a scenario for you that may clarify and give you an idea of how a situation can go. The following scenario is my feable attempt to teach you something. That something is that as much as you assume people have no self control because they are pro-gun and "pro-willing-to-use-it-lawfully", you end up not making sense with your comment....that I respect, no doubt. So here's the scenario:

An unarmed man approaches my wife and I in the middle of a bad part of town. Throughout the scenario, keep in mind, my wife and I never stop walking the same direction until further notice.

He says, "Give me a cigarette man". I say, "No" and keep walking. He says, "Give me a cigarette or I will kick your ***."

{let me remind you, he is totally unarmed. totally=no gun, no knife, no bat, no anything. only clothes and shoes. not even a lighter, all pockets emptied, no laces in his shoes...you get the idea, or I hope you do at least.}

I say, "What are you, a friggin black belt or something?". His answer, "Well f*ck yah, now give me a..." BOOM!!! I just shot him. I just shot an unarmed man. I had the gun, he didn't and I killed him. As said early, my wife and I never stopped walking....until he confirmed that he was a black belt. At that point, I stopped, turned around, drew my pistol and dropped the hammer on a kill shot. The guy is dead.

Now, if you want too, disect this scenario and tell me what you think the outcome will be for me, given the outcome of him is death. Have at it scenario-boy