Down Shifting vs. Brake Pads
03-16-2006, 10:30 AM
#21
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Big Foot Heel-to-Toe
Originally Posted by bOmberO_Z
I wear a size 14, and i'm in the military so I wear big boots... This is not going to happen for me. Plus i'm mexican, I don't have that kind of heel toe cordination
Anyway, I agree with some of the others. You will never feel more proud, or part of the car as when you master the heel to toe downshifting. There is nothing more thrilling than downshifting while braking into a turn and coming out of it in second gear smooth as silk and ready to launch out of it!
This is the first manual I have owned, and I love the heel to toe method, I beleive it does save the brakes and doesn't hurt the clutch(if you do it right), but even if it isn't cheaper, the thrill is what it is all about to me.
03-16-2006, 12:14 PM
#22
interesting. I've seen this discussion on just about every auto forum I've been on. anyhow, I, as most "father" trained MT drivers were taught, you absolutely have to down shift when slowing down to save the brakes (and because the car gods said so and you'd get a slap to the back of the head if you didn't). hell I still do it, while rev-matching. however I have learned that down shifting to stop was something popularized back in the days of drum brakes because of the high cost of drum brake replacement. and although the technique carries on today, its mostly a form of habit since disc brakes/pads are much cheaper to replace. now how accurate or not that is I can't say.
however what I can say is that I have no doubt that the amount of gas I eat up by down shifting (thus reving up the engine) does add up. also there is definately added wear and tear on the trans by down shifting. anytime you shift those gears your creating friction and thus wear and tear. whether that adds up to a high enough cost to exceed the cost of using your brakes to decelerate all the time I can't say. hell you'd have to do a study to figure that one out, however I believe you can make an arguement both ways. I can say for a whole new set of pads/rotors installed I pay about $500.
lastly the one place you should always down-shift to slow down is coming down a steep incline like a mountain.
however what I can say is that I have no doubt that the amount of gas I eat up by down shifting (thus reving up the engine) does add up. also there is definately added wear and tear on the trans by down shifting. anytime you shift those gears your creating friction and thus wear and tear. whether that adds up to a high enough cost to exceed the cost of using your brakes to decelerate all the time I can't say. hell you'd have to do a study to figure that one out, however I believe you can make an arguement both ways. I can say for a whole new set of pads/rotors installed I pay about $500.
lastly the one place you should always down-shift to slow down is coming down a steep incline like a mountain.
03-16-2006, 01:03 PM
#24
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Stock brake pads <$100. I install myself....as always. You don't need new rotors unless they are warped or you "scored" them because of braking w/ no pad left. A new tranny is $XXXX and clutch is $500 and both are MAJOR jobs...I can do front pads on both sides in under 30min. Unless I'm out for a spirited drive I throw it in neutral and if anyone thinks that every time you downshift doesn't add to wear and tear than they don't know s*&t. Every time you engage the clutch your wearing on the plate and disc...I advise doing some reading on howstuffworks about this.
03-16-2006, 06:08 PM
#25
Men, you guys are making such a big deal of this Heel n Toe thing!
I hope you are still enjoying driving your cars?
Heel and Toe has nothing, really nothing, to do with braking harder. It’s used to allow the overlapping actions of downshifting while braking in order to be in the proper gear to power out of a turn, without over revving the engine or slipping the clutch excessively. That’s all.
Just use the brakes to slow down the car, hit the clutch before stalling the engine. For safety, it’s better to have the car in gear so you can take off or maneuver. A car in neutral is not under control. But that’s enough for street driving. Actually, on the street, simple rev matching is usually enough (we’re usually driving slow enough that the lower gear is accessible without over revving the engine.).
If you want to do any type of performance driving, it’s a technique you will have to learn eventually.
As far as putting added wear on the tranny, Heel n Toe should actually reduce wear on the clutch. Of course, if you decide to row through all gears all the time (a waste of time IMO), yes you’ll put more wear on the components. But not because of the HnT.
I hope you are still enjoying driving your cars?
Heel and Toe has nothing, really nothing, to do with braking harder. It’s used to allow the overlapping actions of downshifting while braking in order to be in the proper gear to power out of a turn, without over revving the engine or slipping the clutch excessively. That’s all.
Just use the brakes to slow down the car, hit the clutch before stalling the engine. For safety, it’s better to have the car in gear so you can take off or maneuver. A car in neutral is not under control. But that’s enough for street driving. Actually, on the street, simple rev matching is usually enough (we’re usually driving slow enough that the lower gear is accessible without over revving the engine.).
If you want to do any type of performance driving, it’s a technique you will have to learn eventually.
As far as putting added wear on the tranny, Heel n Toe should actually reduce wear on the clutch. Of course, if you decide to row through all gears all the time (a waste of time IMO), yes you’ll put more wear on the components. But not because of the HnT.
03-16-2006, 06:22 PM
#26
Originally Posted by PoWeRtRiP
its dangerous to shift into neutral while stopping.
heres why
when decelerating if some sort of unknown variable comes into play the driver will have to shift it back into gear before being able to use the gas to accelerate away. by leaving it in gear you can stop braking and swerve, accelerate, or use other means to avoid an accident.
heres why
when decelerating if some sort of unknown variable comes into play the driver will have to shift it back into gear before being able to use the gas to accelerate away. by leaving it in gear you can stop braking and swerve, accelerate, or use other means to avoid an accident.
Last edited by davidv; 03-19-2006 at 03:37 AM.
03-17-2006, 12:01 PM
#27
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So whats the problem with "N" + Braking. If it was a bad thing, then it should be a common knowledge like brake for stop and gas for go. The only down side that I see is that your ganna replace your brakes sooner, but then again, your ganna have a longer tranny-clutch life. Is there any mechanical damage to your vehicle that makes "N" + Braking bad?
If you can't shift fast enought to go from "N" to the proper gear in time to get going again, then I think you should stop smoking+ eating+ drinking+ starring at the hotties while driving.
I do one or the other depending on what the driving situation is and how I feel like. If I wanna chill and I'm tierd from a hard day at work. I cruse in "N" to a stop and brake as needed. If I'm late to work and want to drive agressive, I'm never out of gear.
I would like to know if I'm hurting my Z with "N" + braking if anyone can think of anything. I would like to prevent anything from damaging my Z unlike all those bastards in the parking lot that think my car is a door stoper
If you can't shift fast enought to go from "N" to the proper gear in time to get going again, then I think you should stop smoking+ eating+ drinking+ starring at the hotties while driving.
I do one or the other depending on what the driving situation is and how I feel like. If I wanna chill and I'm tierd from a hard day at work. I cruse in "N" to a stop and brake as needed. If I'm late to work and want to drive agressive, I'm never out of gear.
I would like to know if I'm hurting my Z with "N" + braking if anyone can think of anything. I would like to prevent anything from damaging my Z unlike all those bastards in the parking lot that think my car is a door stoper
03-18-2006, 04:30 AM
#30
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Brakes first, then downshift.
With all this talk about heel and toeing, it should be noted that it is much easier to do when you're hard on the brakes. Also, unless you're size 18 and wear ski boots, you should be able to heel and toe just fine. People have different methods, so just find what suits you and get accustomed to it during regular driving.
With all this talk about heel and toeing, it should be noted that it is much easier to do when you're hard on the brakes. Also, unless you're size 18 and wear ski boots, you should be able to heel and toe just fine. People have different methods, so just find what suits you and get accustomed to it during regular driving.
03-18-2006, 07:15 AM
#31
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Im just learning how to drive a standard car now, always had auto, but some of my friends say its bad to clutch and break while driving in like 3rd gear to slow down i always have to go to n then break, same with stop signs but some say its fine i just clutch break in first or second then keep going
03-18-2006, 07:59 AM
#33
Originally Posted by dosu350
Im just learning how to drive a standard car now, always had auto, but some of my friends say its bad to clutch and break while driving in like 3rd gear to slow down i always have to go to n then break, same with stop signs but some say its fine i just clutch break in first or second then keep going
Breaking while still in gear is the way to go. Even more so if you have to take off with out coming to a full stop.
Personnaly, I freak out when I'm riding with someone who coast in neutral or on the clutch. The car doesn't feel in control then. But that's just me
03-18-2006, 12:41 PM
#36
Using the brakes to slow down while in neutral is something you only do if you're travelling very slow already or you're just learning to drive. In general it's a very noob'ish thing to do.
Having the engine engaged to the wheels gives you a great amount of control over the attitude of the car. When it's disconnected that control simply is not there.
Downshifting does in fact use more gas, and it also puts more revolutions on your engine. It's a small price to pay. Revolutions are something that a lot of people forget about. To make a very simple to understand example, you could drive 100k miles while never going above 2000 rpms. You could also drive 100k miles while staying above 4k the entire time. You're driving the same amount of miles, but in the latter example the engine has spun twice as many times. Which do you think creates more wear on the engine? Which do you think uses more gas?
My only point is there is no point in revving the engine higher than the situation calls for. That certainly does not mean you shouldn't be downshifting, and it doesn't mean there is anything wrong with seeing redline. It's what the car was designed to do.
Let's get something else straight. Heel-toeing is not something that is required in daily driving. Hell, it's not even required at the track (unless you plan on being as fast as possible). The average driver should concern themselves with upshifting and downshifting properly instead.
Having the engine engaged to the wheels gives you a great amount of control over the attitude of the car. When it's disconnected that control simply is not there.
Downshifting does in fact use more gas, and it also puts more revolutions on your engine. It's a small price to pay. Revolutions are something that a lot of people forget about. To make a very simple to understand example, you could drive 100k miles while never going above 2000 rpms. You could also drive 100k miles while staying above 4k the entire time. You're driving the same amount of miles, but in the latter example the engine has spun twice as many times. Which do you think creates more wear on the engine? Which do you think uses more gas?
My only point is there is no point in revving the engine higher than the situation calls for. That certainly does not mean you shouldn't be downshifting, and it doesn't mean there is anything wrong with seeing redline. It's what the car was designed to do.
Let's get something else straight. Heel-toeing is not something that is required in daily driving. Hell, it's not even required at the track (unless you plan on being as fast as possible). The average driver should concern themselves with upshifting and downshifting properly instead.
03-19-2006, 03:32 AM
#38
Originally Posted by arneltec
So whats the problem with "N" + Braking.
03-19-2006, 03:54 AM
#40
I haz da turbos
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dont stick it in neutral to stop, your in less control of the vehicle. using engine braking will not hurt your tranny, the car is built to take it, as are all manual cars. Here in Europe, if you dont keep it in gear while braking, you fail your drivers test.