240Zplus110

iTrader: (1)

Driving is all about developing good habits such that when you are in a emergency situation your learned reaction will automatically kick in.

No one has disagreed that downshifting combined with hard braking will stop you a lot faster and safer.

So the only question I would ask is... which learned response (habit) would benefit you in an unplanned emergency braking situation?

In my daily commute I usually have at least one situation a month where my instinct takes over.

BTW.. like someone already commented... where I live, putting in neutral and coasting to a stop will get you an immediate "Fail" on a drivers road test.

Lastly... any comments about being on a track really don't apply to the real world because tracks are a controlled environment with other serious drivers -- no cell phones, putting on makeup while driving, drinking their latte's (not to fail to mention the track is usually dry) -- all the things that cause driver distraction and accidents waiting to happen.

Don't get me wrong (since I have also tracked my car) it is a good place to learn the limits of yourself and your car... which is invaluable for a daily commute.

Clapton9286

I'm also a big proponent of being able to learn your car on the track and then applying what you've learned in daily life. Take for instance the snow...I see so many accidents in my area when the first snow hits because all of the new drivers go out and do donuts in their neighborhoods and slam into various stationary objects. Instead, they should go to an abandoned lot and do them there, to try and figure out what their car feels like with that scenario. The same goes for high speed braking, emergency braking, evasive maneuvers, etc. Esp with a car like this..you see a culture of kids (my age) who believe they can pilot the toy their parents got them, and when they go to show off (the guy with that busted up redline comes to mind) disaster strikes.

MulhollandDrive

I completely disagree with that statement. When driving hard into corners I brake hard/downshift/rev match and throttle steer out of the corners. This has nothing to do with panic stopping which is done with the brakes alone. Try panic stopping while steering around a car in the road and then you will know what I am saying.

If you have a 240Z then you know that stock there was too much give in the front suspension compression rod bushings under hard braking and the back end would slide out while going hard into a corner on the brakes which required replacing the front bushings with teflon spacers which neutralized this behavior. Is this the kind of hard braking you are talking about?

240Zplus110

iTrader: (1)

Braking to enter a corner in my mind is alot different than straightline braking. In order to keep the back end planted through the corner the hard braking like you said is done prior to entering the corner. Downshifting will get the most advantage of power (contact) to the rear wheels to exit. If I entered the corner in neutral I'd wouldn't have this advantage.

Fortunately with ABS we can still still steer to avoid while braking hard. Earlier model cars like my old 240Z didn't have that security unless, like you said, took measures to neutralize (make predictable) the car somewhat.

Ezzer

I agree with DIMERYDER, same thing happened to me, only luckily, I was first in the queue at the lights and there were no cars on the other lane, muppet in a non-abs equipped car locked up, I moved forward by inches, he just missed me and moved into the next lane.

If I see red light in the distance, I almost always start slowing down by down shifiting quite early, and then only start hitting the brakes when I'm about 50m away, and heel toe into second if I haven't already . Rather enjoy that. Pretty much every change I do is heel toed and I don't see how it will do any damage or greater wear to my tranny, as every change is as smooth as I can make it, matching speed of the engine with the tranny, etc.

As to gears helping to slow the car down....I think there is only a one way answer for me - why do some of the great new/recent automatics downshift when it detects you are braking hard? Like the AMG one for example. Rest the case!

Kolia

iTrader: (2)

Ha ha ha...

It downshifts so it's ready to take off immediately after you let go of the brakes. Why, exactly the same reason why you do it on your MT !

Not very sports like for a AT to kickdown on corner exit. It's actually pretty unsettling and can throw you into an ARMCO barrier pretty fast !

Downshifting will not help slow the car faster than simple threshold braking.

paso007

I would just like to add to this point that using N to decelerate ALL THE TIME is very dangerous (especially when u are decelerating from a moderate speed). same reason as Powertrip just noted in his quote, and also there may come a time when u have to sudden brake while slowing down and if you are not down shifting and not in a low gear or at least letting urself to get used to down shifting fast when u want to stop or decelerate suddenly with little stopping distance. Your Z will not respond to good braking if you don't down shift or get your self in a lower gear when u want to slow down fast. I'm saying this because if you allow yourself to get used to using N gear while you want to decelerate it will confuse you on the day you have to make hard stop while decelerating in N and u lose focus on downshifting and instead you keep in N gear... you will not get the braking response you were looking for and BAM.

just wanted to add that because i almost had that happen to me once and learned my lesson. you should N and brake only when coming to a stop while u have already down shifted to 2nd. you will only hurt your tranny if you downshift with very high rev (too soon) or downshifting to 1st which is just stupid. other than that i believe downshifting is best and actaully healthy for your MANUAL Z. they are built for this so if you use it grandma style you will actaully do more damage to your car using N all the time instead of downshifting. just my 2 cents.

roast

iTrader: (2)

I know this is an old thread... but since it was bumped and I never followed up to some ridiculous posts....I might as well...

People who think it's ok to coast in neutral need to try this: put the car in neutral and take a moderate speed turn really hot. You will learn very quickly why you never want to have to maneuver in neutral. You never know when some idiot is going to pull out in front of you, or change lanes into you, or some animal or small child run out in front of you... etc etc. Having the car in gear gives you MUCH more control over the attitude of the car while also keeping you prepared to react to any unforseen events.

Coasting in nuetral also uses more gas. The ECU has to supply the engine gas to keep it idling, just like sitting at a stop light. When compression braking the cars momentum keeps the engine spinning without requiring any fuel.

To anyone suggesting coasting in neutral is a great habit to get into, I would suggest taking some driving lessons. If you take classes already, you should think about getting a new instructor.

jungle

Coasting in neutral just isn't done.
1. Slowing to a stop-Just leave it in the gear you are cruising in to allow engine braking and use brakes as required, clutch in as you approach idle/stop.

2. Slowing to an anticipated acceleration- the same except you will now downshift prior to the point of acceleration to the appropriate gear. It is neither needed or desired to go through each gear, just go to the one you will need.

3. Flogging around in neutral will cause you more brake wear, less control, and leave you behind the curve if acceleration is required.

4. In panic braking or braking at max effort, engine braking will have little or no effect on total stopping distance.

Built2shredZ

That depends on how many brake pads and rotors you go through, it adds up quick....

I've always down shifted when slowing down... my last honda had 130k miles on it and its transmisison and engine were fine...

zzzzzz ya

heel toe is for braking going into to turns. If you are not great at it and you do it everytime you stop you are gonna either burn your clutch or wear your pads faster. Practice heel toe on off ramps, not everytime you stop.

Spoiled Z

iTrader: (30)

Hmm I hardly downshift unless I'm turning, changing lanes on the highway or trying to race someone. I normally put it to N when I'm getting close to the light. I'll try downshifting when approaching a light.

Kolia

iTrader: (2)

God this will never end!

Some of us try to demystify things that, in essence, are pretty simple. And yet people still come in with TFnF theories and confuses everybody…

Heel and Toe was “invented” as a result of some simple observations.

1- The need to downshift to a lower gear in order to maximize acceleration out of a corner (Downshift)
2- The need to keep the car balanced while doing the downshift, thus allowing the driver to carry more speed. (Downshift + Rev matching)
3- The need to slow the car to the correct speed to make the corner in the first place. (Brakes+Downshift+Rev matching)

That’s pretty much it. Tranny wear and clutch wear are not an issue in any case. IMO, rev matching or not, it won’t make much of a difference in the drive train’s longevity.

Banging the gears in, slipping the clutch at a stop light or dropping the clutch will hurt the car eventually. But these aren’t linked to rev matching, double clutching or heel toeing. They’re just stupid things people do…

redman333

iTrader: (8)

I don't have quite that big a boot(12.5) but I do where steel toes which run a little bigger anyway. I learned how to heel toe shift on a track and just driving around and it became very natural to me. When I got in my car with the big boots I didn't even think about it and naturally heel toe shifted a couple of times, didn't matter what I was wearing. It doesn't feel quite as natural but no where near impossible to accomplish.

redman333

iTrader: (8)

I have a question about double clutching, what exactly is it. I've heard many different things. I understand heel toe and rev matching, that I do all the time, but don't know about double clutching.

lb's vq35

iTrader: (7)

lol i wear 12.5 -13 and i use the "foot roll" tech.. but when i wear boots i cant use that tech its way to difficult...

davidv

iTrader: (2)

Have you ever driven a farm tractor?

lilquazyvietboi

mmm... i kinda got lost with this topic.

there's 2 waysto put ur car in nuetral.... clutch in... or shift into nuetral.

i have a habit of brake first ... then clutch in a second later. down shift if i go lower than 2.5k rpm.

to me, engine braking feels weird... especially when ur in 1st gear... i can feel it in 2nd gear too actually.... the engine slows down slowly... then at a certain rpm... the engine brake greatly increases. the braking feels very weird and unsmooth.

i am almost always in gear though... either i keep it in current gear... or downshift... i never shift to nuetral unless i know imma be stopped for a while, and pop back into gear when i think i would need to accelerate again.

when i read this forum.... i kinda got confused about the issue.... cause... keeping urself in gear... and engine braking can mean 2 different things.

for me,
staying in one of the 6 gears = 90% of the time
engine braking = i do it when i have a good distance to a stop point.

the way i break is.... i slowly brake to stop point.... im not a person who would go 15 mph and slam on the brake at stop point.

anyways... for those who's learning to drive a stick... u should feel it... just keep driving. most people here learn all of this through their own personal experience... and as you can see, people have different style and preference.

350zQ45a

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...&q=honda&hl=en

nathanwl2004

iTrader: (2)

horrible excuse dude, I heal toe in my jump boots if need be. it is a bit harder but if you can do it in them you can do it in anything.