Ditto here! Downshifting is not harder than upshifting - no.one intends to use it as a brake - you downshift after slowing to a speed at which you could upshift - and not accelerating at that point your transmission will automatically slow you down. It is the transmission that slows you down at that point - not the clutch - unless you are an addicted clutch rider - which will always wear out a clutch. Many drivers like to ride with one foot on the clutch and the other on the throttle. I have never owrn out a clutch or transmission either - 60 years of driving - and a number of non-automatic vehicles.

 

Most people wear out a clutch from "rideing" the clutch, one foot on the clutch and the other on the accelerator. I would never downshift at a speed higher that which I would upshift into the present gear. That wouldnt make much sense. Also, once you downshift and release the clutch it is the engine that slows you down - not the clutch! Mountain driving teaches one that - slip it into a lower gear and the engine slows the auto = it is not the clutch that is slowing it. I have owned several stick drives and have never replaced a clutch or transmission.

 

Damn. To think all that time and you never learned to do it properly. 50 years is a long time to do something like that incorrectly. You know what they say... you can always teach an old dog new tricks.

Besides the fact it's hard on the clutch, it's simply **** poor technique.

You are right that starting out puts the most wear on the clutch - but thats only if you're doing everything else correctly. For those of us who know how to drive that's the only time the clutch ever slips, but even then we keep it to a minimum. If you're downshifting without revmatching that is no longer true. Downshifting without revmatching can very easily put much more wear on the clutch than simply starting out, simply from the much greater potential difference in mismatched speeds.

Oops. Door #1 or Door #2??? Which do I choose?

I will kindly inform you that I am a professional driver(that means I drive for a LIVING in case you don't understand that either). I don't mean to be rude but you have no idea what you're talking about and your posts clearly demonstrate that. You're the type of kid (60 years my ***) who would take a HPDE class and attempt to instruct the instructor. I'm not going to waste my time with someone who isn't even smart enough to realize they barely even know how to operate a vehicle, yet they think they are qualified to give driving instructions.

To each their own.

 

Well, pardon me sir - I didnt realize anyone on this board was giving driving lessons- this is supposed to be a friendly give and take - not boasting about someones vocation noone can disaaprove. I could say I fly jets too I guess or should I say race jets for a living?? Let's not boast of something we cant prove to impress all readers of these postings

 

Ughh, it really helps having years of experience w/ a manual. Downshifting can be really tough if you don't know what RPM to match at various speeds and gears. ****, i'm having trouble going from 3rd @ 4000 RPMs to 4th smoothly; you gotta freaking hold the clutch so long before letting it go, otherwise I end up releasing it too soon. Uhhh pisses me off.

 

First of all your mocking me and contradicting me was not well recieved. If you had actually been right about anything you said I might not have came off so harsh. I'm also not boasting about my vocation; I don't even make that much money. I was simply letting you know that I drive for a living and if there is one thing I do know how to do - it's driving.

Scroll back and download the downshifting video I posted. Better yet here it is again: http://videos.streetfire.net/video/5...2168d7cf44.htm

As far as I'm concerned that's all the proof I need. When you learn to pull off a simple yet aggressive downshift like that be sure to let us know. Don't forget to show your proof.

Experience does help. A lot of people trying to learn to downshift properly get caught up in the term "rev-match". The term makes them think they need to match the exact RPM by holding the RPM steady while engaging the clutch. Doing it this way is a good starting point for learning because when you keep a steady speed and know the exact the RPM to go back and forth to, it does make practicing easier and less stressful on everything because your shift points stay the same and it's easy to match.

While you can start off practicing it that way, that's not how you would want to do it after you get a feel for what you're supposed to be doing. As you know, in the real world your speed will always be variable. Simply blip the throttle to get the RPM shooting up and engage the clutch earlier rather than later. It's practically THAT SIMPLE. Once you get it down you will have a feel for it without having to give it any thought. Before you know it you will be wanting to learn how to heel-toe to compliment your new ability.

As far as revmatching an upshift to 4th from 3rd@4000, just wait a moment for that heavy dual mass flywheel to lose some momentum and then slowly start to engage the clutch a little early. Once it starts to catch you can let it out and give a little gas. Doing it smoothly and swiftly is just as tricky as revmatching a downshift believe it or not, if not harder (it's also harder for me to explain properly without demonstrating, I'm not a very good at trying to describe it and I'm not a good teacher either). From lower RPM you can be a lot quicker because the flywheel reaches the right speed faster. You can almost speed shift at lower RPM without issue.

When people refer to speed shifting they just upshift to the next gear quickly and drop the clutch without giving the RPM a chance to drop for a matched upshift. This is similar to how most noobs upshift because they don't know any better (and it's very simple). From higher RPM the clutch bites and sends a surge through the driveline. During spirited driving, speed shifting is great. I often chirp third gear while speed shifting. Here is another video I made running through a few gears with one hand.

http://videos.streetfire.net/video/9...5127ea571c.htm

Enjoy.

 

As I said in a previous statement - in downshifting - slow to a speed that you could upshift into the current gear.- does not harm the clutch - similar to downshifting when starting down a steep mountain. This is not clutch braking - pure and simple engine braking.
Enough said!!

 

You fail to grasp what the othwers are telling you. It is NOT "clutch braking", it is engine braking. The energy to be dissipated it added to the engine, not the clutch.

And while rev matching will certainly produce a smoother trasnition (and make you look like a more competant driver), it doesn't substantially impact the wear and tear on the drive train.

"ENGINE BRAKING is a method of slowing down an automobile without the use of the car's friction braking system. It works best on cars with a manual transmission, though cars with automatic transmissions experience the effects as well.

"In the case of either type of transmission (Though it is more useful with a stick) one can downshift in order to increase the effectiveness of this technique, though it can be observed at any time by simply letting off the gas.

"There are a number of reasons you might want to engage in engine braking. The first is that it puts little or no more load on your engine than it would otherwise bear, but saves considerable wear on your brakes. This leads into the next reason, primarily in the case of racing, but also when going down long hills; Frequent use of brakes not only wears out the pads but also heats them up. This leads to brake fade (most brake pads do not grip well when hot) and to boiling of the brake fluid, which does not work properly once it has been boiled. Brake fade is only a problem during overuse of brakes, such as going down long, steep hills, or during "aggressive" driving. The third reason, also primarily significant in sports driving, is that you want to decelerate into turns and accelerate out of them. Downshifting increases the effectiveness of engine braking, and increases the number of RPMs at a given speed, which tends to assist in acceleration. "


You may want to read the unabridged original text here:

http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=1181314

BTW, I'm glad to know you are a "professional driver". I am 64 years old, started building hotrods in the 50's. My first (of many), sports cars was a '56 TR3. In my 20's and 30's, was a fairly acomplished autocrosser. I am a graduate mechanical engineer, spent over 30 years designing and maintaining special machinery for the automotive industry, and have spent more than a few miles behind the wheel of an 18 wheeler. So I guess I'm not a "professional", but I'm a pretty knowledgeable amatuer.




bill

 

BTW, I'm glad to know you are a "professional driver". I am 64 years old, started building hotrods in the 50's. My first (of many), sports cars was a '56 TR3. In my 20's and 30's, was a fairly acomplished autocrosser. I am a graduate mechanical engineer, spent over 30 years designing and maintaining special machinery for the automotive industry, and have spent more than a few miles behind the wheel of an 18 wheeler. So I guess I'm not a "professional", but I'm a pretty knowledgeable amatuer.

========================================================
Very well put - the whole message, I think we can all put this thing to rest with an explanation so thorough.
Happy ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZING TO ALL!

 

Well said roast.

 

Excuse me, but it is you who fails to grasp what is being discussed. Engine braking uses the the engines compression to slow the vehicle, that's why it's aka compression braking. I'm very well aware of what it is and how it works, tyvm. The clutch is already engaged and that's not even an issue with engine braking. CLUTCH BRAKING is using mismatched speeds of the input shaft on the transmission and the engine to create an ADDITIONAL braking effect. If you are too dense to understand this concept, go get on the highway at 60mph in 6th gear and throw it in second and drop the clutch. You'll be pulling your teeth out of the steering wheel. Do that very many times without matching your RPM and your clutch will be roasted and toasted. GUARANTEED. That's an extreme example of clutch braking. I hope you understand this simple concept now.

Wow, are you sure about that? Do you not understand the types of forces created when you take two disks that are spinning at drastically different speeds and slam them together? Physics not your strong area??

As if you're telling me something I don't already know. I don't need to copy paste from other sources - I actually know this stuff without having to take someone elses word for it. Thanks anyway, I guess.

I've seen a few of your posts before and for the most part I think you have a pretty good grasp on what you're talking about. However - your issue here is all in your head. Nobody said engine braking is bad, you're just confused on what was meant by "clutch braking". I hope you understand now.

 

Thank you.

 

dats mess up yo!

 

Let's do some simple math:

Gears + Throttle = Speed.

Brakes + Clutch - Throttle = Stop.

Answer = Unless you are racing, you don't need to downshift...you are only wearing your clutch.

 

"Answer = Unless you are racing, you don't need to downshift...you are only wearing your clutch.'

Yeah but its fun!

Isn't that what the Z is for?

 

gj guys, posting in a thread almost a yr old D:

 

When downshifting, just kick the stick real hard and yell, "THIS IS SPARTAAAAAA!!!" Lol!

 

I actually learned a lot in this thread. It turns out I'm doing things pretty much okay, but there's stuff I need to work on.

I doubt you could read too many threads on this forumm and NOT learn something, regardless of how much you thought you knew when you got here.

 

wow you guys are starting to scare me from buying my first MT car!

I have driven one in the past(but not owned) but apparently I did it pretty crappy.

 

new to the site but not new in cars.