Wheelbase and Spinouts
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From: Edina, Minnesota
Originally Posted by rocks
I spun my 928 a few times. I have never spun out in the Z 
.
.…Just curious. --Spike
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From: USA
Originally Posted by Spike100
Another thread about TCS and VDC (but different)... 01-05-2007, 10:55 PM
The already active thread “Traction Control” is very good reading. Lot's of good information there.
I have another question about VDC. I need to preface the discussion with this information: My only experience on this question is with 2003 and 2004 350Z’s. I do not know if this is applicable to 2005-2006 350Z’s since I did not evaluate these models.
Discussion: The first Z I drove was a 2003 Enthusiast model (this configuration had TLC but not VDC), and I was impressed. It was a great car with a great engine and suspension. My only criticism was the slow drop in RPMs (engine-hanging) while shifting. Otherwise, it was perfect for me.
A few months later I drove a 2003 Z Performance model (that is equipped with VDC). There was a very noticeable difference in the power-assisted equipment (clutch, brakes, and steering) on the Performance model with VDC. The clutch, brakes, and steering on the VDC equipped Performance model were much lighter and felt a whole lot better than on the TLC equipped Enthusiast model. I pointed this out to the dealer who told me I was seeing ghosts (same car with nearly same equipment, should be no difference in the power assisted equipment). Then I took a 2003 Track model (which also has VDC) for a test drive. Same thing: Similar to the Performance model and a lighter feel on the brakes, clutch, and power steering than the Enthusiast model. Thinking the Enthusiast model I was driving was an aberration (suffering from heavy-feeling power assisted equipment), I did a test drive on a different Enthusiast. The newly tested Enthusiast model was exactly like the Enthusiast I was driving (with the same feel of the power-assisted equipment that was not as smooth and light as the VDC equipped Performance model and Track model).
So you know what I did. I got a Performance model. Since then I have had the opportunity to drive a couple of other 2003 Enthusiast models, and the same is true: Power-assisted equipment is not as light and pleasant as on my Performance model.
What’s going on here? Do VDC equipped-models have a higher hydraulic boost? Are the more expensive models different? I have no idea. Again, my comparison is only on 2003 models. I wonder if the same is true for 2005-2006 models. --Spike
The already active thread “Traction Control” is very good reading. Lot's of good information there.
I have another question about VDC. I need to preface the discussion with this information: My only experience on this question is with 2003 and 2004 350Z’s. I do not know if this is applicable to 2005-2006 350Z’s since I did not evaluate these models.
Discussion: The first Z I drove was a 2003 Enthusiast model (this configuration had TLC but not VDC), and I was impressed. It was a great car with a great engine and suspension. My only criticism was the slow drop in RPMs (engine-hanging) while shifting. Otherwise, it was perfect for me.
A few months later I drove a 2003 Z Performance model (that is equipped with VDC). There was a very noticeable difference in the power-assisted equipment (clutch, brakes, and steering) on the Performance model with VDC. The clutch, brakes, and steering on the VDC equipped Performance model were much lighter and felt a whole lot better than on the TLC equipped Enthusiast model. I pointed this out to the dealer who told me I was seeing ghosts (same car with nearly same equipment, should be no difference in the power assisted equipment). Then I took a 2003 Track model (which also has VDC) for a test drive. Same thing: Similar to the Performance model and a lighter feel on the brakes, clutch, and power steering than the Enthusiast model. Thinking the Enthusiast model I was driving was an aberration (suffering from heavy-feeling power assisted equipment), I did a test drive on a different Enthusiast. The newly tested Enthusiast model was exactly like the Enthusiast I was driving (with the same feel of the power-assisted equipment that was not as smooth and light as the VDC equipped Performance model and Track model).
So you know what I did. I got a Performance model. Since then I have had the opportunity to drive a couple of other 2003 Enthusiast models, and the same is true: Power-assisted equipment is not as light and pleasant as on my Performance model.
What’s going on here? Do VDC equipped-models have a higher hydraulic boost? Are the more expensive models different? I have no idea. Again, my comparison is only on 2003 models. I wonder if the same is true for 2005-2006 models. --Spike
Do you find spinning fascinating? Two threads about the same subject? If you have a 350Z, drive normally and you won't spin or need TCS/LSD/VDC. Plus, you won't need to post another thread on this subject.
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From: Edina, Minnesota
Originally Posted by HighwaySpeed
SPIKE
Do you find spinning fascinating? Two threads about the same subject? If you have a 350Z, drive normally and you won't spin or need TCS/LSD/VDC. Plus, you won't need to post another thread on this subject.
Do you find spinning fascinating? Two threads about the same subject? If you have a 350Z, drive normally and you won't spin or need TCS/LSD/VDC. Plus, you won't need to post another thread on this subject.
--Spike
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From: los angeles
ive been driving sports cars, suvs and full size cars for many years and recently had 2 bad fishtailing episodes in my convertible 2009 350z. the 1st time, about 2 years ago, i was able to regain control. since then ive been super careful... however on 11/6/12, i gave the wheel a tiny left turn while accellerating to 75-80mph and i fishtailed, spun out (@ 4:30pm on ca route 405), side swiped another car and ended up facing traffic (fortunately 100 yards away!). long story short, i got away with $7,000 in damages to my z, a badly sprained wrist from fighting the wheel and nothing serious (so far) from the other driver. im 6ft4 280 (ya i fit!) so maybe the weight distribution is freeked out with me behind the wheel. but such fishtailing and spin outs shouldnt be happening... i get it out of the shop on 11/27/12. im going to air out the body shop smells and dust and trade it in on a ragtop 2012 camaro! bye yall!!!!
It's simple. Rear grip resists spinning. Farther the rear wheels are from the rotational axis, the more effective it is at resisting the forces fighting the grip and causing the car to spin.
It's called a moment. Force X Distance. It's like a pry bar except instead of breaking something loose you're trying to control it. The farther away you are, the more control you have.
It's called a moment. Force X Distance. It's like a pry bar except instead of breaking something loose you're trying to control it. The farther away you are, the more control you have.
Porsche quit production of the 928 seventeen years ago, and the design goes back a lot more years. So I am wondering if the spin outs you had were many years ago when you were a lot younger (and less experienced driving sports cars) than you are today with your Z?
…Just curious. --Spike
…Just curious. --Spike
ive been driving sports cars, suvs and full size cars for many years and recently had 2 bad fishtailing episodes in my convertible 2009 350z. the 1st time, about 2 years ago, i was able to regain control. since then ive been super careful... however on 11/6/12, i gave the wheel a tiny left turn while accellerating to 75-80mph and i fishtailed, spun out (@ 4:30pm on ca route 405), side swiped another car and ended up facing traffic (fortunately 100 yards away!). long story short, i got away with $7,000 in damages to my z, a badly sprained wrist from fighting the wheel and nothing serious (so far) from the other driver. im 6ft4 280 (ya i fit!) so maybe the weight distribution is freeked out with me behind the wheel. but such fishtailing and spin outs shouldnt be happening... i get it out of the shop on 11/27/12. im going to air out the body shop smells and dust and trade it in on a ragtop 2012 camaro! bye yall!!!!
Sounds like other factors were involved to be honest, but good luck with the camaro!
Last edited by muffles; Nov 27, 2012 at 05:35 AM.
Shorter wheel base does not neccarily mean 'less willingness to rotate'. Its more or less the rotationa interia that determines that. Thats why mid engine cars turn more naturally than RR which turn more naturally than FR. The center of mass and the radiuis from the center of mass matters more. If it matters, even though RR engines have a lower inertia (' willingness to spin' ) they are less likely too because the rear tires have more friction.
In other words, what matters most is your suspension geometry. I can set my rear camber to -4 degrees, make my rear sway bar real stiff, front real soft, make the rear strut very stiff, and cause the car to spin out with EASE, or I can find a neutral setting which gives me some understeer while still maintining the ability to power oversteer
In other words, what matters most is your suspension geometry. I can set my rear camber to -4 degrees, make my rear sway bar real stiff, front real soft, make the rear strut very stiff, and cause the car to spin out with EASE, or I can find a neutral setting which gives me some understeer while still maintining the ability to power oversteer
AutoX'ing the Z on a stock suspension (100%) i was coming through a long fast right handed sweeper, pretty much at the very peak of power in 2nd gear before over rev, and into a quick, albeit not very sharp, left cut. being a noob with some serious wheels, i held the wheel at about 2 o'clock through the sweep, foot floored, then immediately cut to about 9 o'clock and lifted (NEV3R L!FT) which,before i even knew what was happening, put the car in a giant, smokey, screechy, violent 1080 which lasted maybe 1.5-2 seconds (snap oversteer). I was disoriented and could not see through the tire smoke and car would not turn on. I couldve been a moment from eating the E46 M3 chasing me. Luckily, the track workers were diligent and attentive and threw up the red flags and stopped other racers and came to my rescue. got out of the car, push started it and took it to the paddock.
the geometries of the car's suspension (stock, bear in mind) and distribution of weight were the guilty party in this situation.
- The weight of the car was rolled to the driver side through the sweeper causing much less grip on passenger side wheels
- I cut the wheel left which flung the weight of the car onto passenger side wheels causing them to catch a ton of grip in a short time throwing the car left
- i let off the throttle which made the nose dip putting a great majority of weight distribution on the front passenger wheel (this is also where weight distribution out of the box comes into play, all the motor and suspension weight on the front axel made for a more severe dip than say a porsche or an MR-2)
- which cause the fast moving/shifting rear of the car to essentially swing itself around the passenger side
- the shorter wheelbase did account for the rear coming around quicker and easier than a longer wheel base'd car, and also for the violence of the spin
I have recently installed coilovers, hotchkis bars, camber arms, and RPF1s with stickier tires so i'll let you know how my new geometries play into the dynamics of AutoX'ing through the 2013 season.
My racing buddies (from all walks of life)
Aftermath
I'm going to have to go ahead and agree with this. It is much much more about weght distributions and suspension geometries.
AutoX'ing the Z on a stock suspension (100%) i was coming through a long fast right handed sweeper, pretty much at the very peak of power in 2nd gear before over rev, and into a quick, albeit not very sharp, left cut. being a noob with some serious wheels, i held the wheel at about 2 o'clock through the sweep, foot floored, then immediately cut to about 9 o'clock and lifted (NEV3R L!FT) which,before i even knew what was happening, put the car in a giant, smokey, screechy, violent 1080 which lasted maybe 1.5-2 seconds (snap oversteer). I was disoriented and could not see through the tire smoke and car would not turn on. I couldve been a moment from eating the E46 M3 chasing me. Luckily, the track workers were diligent and attentive and threw up the red flags and stopped other racers and came to my rescue. got out of the car, push started it and took it to the paddock.
the geometries of the car's suspension (stock, bear in mind) and distribution of weight were the guilty party in this situation.
I have recently installed coilovers, hotchkis bars, camber arms, and RPF1s with stickier tires so i'll let you know how my new geometries play into the dynamics of AutoX'ing through the 2013 season.
AutoX'ing the Z on a stock suspension (100%) i was coming through a long fast right handed sweeper, pretty much at the very peak of power in 2nd gear before over rev, and into a quick, albeit not very sharp, left cut. being a noob with some serious wheels, i held the wheel at about 2 o'clock through the sweep, foot floored, then immediately cut to about 9 o'clock and lifted (NEV3R L!FT) which,before i even knew what was happening, put the car in a giant, smokey, screechy, violent 1080 which lasted maybe 1.5-2 seconds (snap oversteer). I was disoriented and could not see through the tire smoke and car would not turn on. I couldve been a moment from eating the E46 M3 chasing me. Luckily, the track workers were diligent and attentive and threw up the red flags and stopped other racers and came to my rescue. got out of the car, push started it and took it to the paddock.
the geometries of the car's suspension (stock, bear in mind) and distribution of weight were the guilty party in this situation.
- The weight of the car was rolled to the driver side through the sweeper causing much less grip on passenger side wheels
- I cut the wheel left which flung the weight of the car onto passenger side wheels causing them to catch a ton of grip in a short time throwing the car left
- i let off the throttle which made the nose dip putting a great majority of weight distribution on the front passenger wheel (this is also where weight distribution out of the box comes into play, all the motor and suspension weight on the front axel made for a more severe dip than say a porsche or an MR-2)
- which cause the fast moving/shifting rear of the car to essentially swing itself around the passenger side
- the shorter wheelbase did account for the rear coming around quicker and easier than a longer wheel base'd car, and also for the violence of the spin
I have recently installed coilovers, hotchkis bars, camber arms, and RPF1s with stickier tires so i'll let you know how my new geometries play into the dynamics of AutoX'ing through the 2013 season.
No one is saying that weight distribution doesn't effect a car's attitude. My understanding is that the discussion is whether or not two cars which are identical in every way except the wheels are farther apart will behave differently beyond the limit. Survey says: yes.
Last edited by zswickliffe; Nov 27, 2012 at 06:47 AM.
So you spun 3 times? Skid marks look more like 180-270 degrees. And you were autocrossing with another car on the track? Seems safe.
No one is saying that weight distrobution doesn't effect a car's attitude. My understanding is that the discussion is whether or not two cars which are identical in every way except the wheels are farther apart will behave differently beyond the limit. Survey says: yes.
No one is saying that weight distrobution doesn't effect a car's attitude. My understanding is that the discussion is whether or not two cars which are identical in every way except the wheels are farther apart will behave differently beyond the limit. Survey says: yes.
quick vid from one of the events (NOT ME. NOT MY VIDEO. NOT MY CAR). you can see other cars sharing the track.
My understanding of the discussion is whether or not wheelbase length determines a car's propensity to spin. I did not glean the same as you did. It seems to me obvious that identical cars with differing wheelbases will behave differently.
My post agrees with previous responses, which generallly answer "not the prime reason, more so suspension geometry and weight distribution." If it does not sit well with you, please do allow me to edit to your liking.
Last edited by 1LightBrick; Nov 27, 2012 at 06:55 AM.
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From: Edina, Minnesota
Obviously, and by your own admission, your driving history is long in years but short in experience and expertise. You report a spin-out in optimum conditions. That tells me you are at teenager level and very inexperienced. I only hope I keep out of your way. --Spike
ive been driving sports cars, suvs and full size cars for many years and recently had 2 bad fishtailing episodes in my convertible 2009 350z. the 1st time, about 2 years ago, i was able to regain control. since then ive been super careful... however on 11/6/12, i gave the wheel a tiny left turn while accellerating to 75-80mph and i fishtailed, spun out (@ 4:30pm on ca route 405), side swiped another car and ended up facing traffic (fortunately 100 yards away!). long story short, i got away with $7,000 in damages to my z, a badly sprained wrist from fighting the wheel and nothing serious (so far) from the other driver. im 6ft4 280 (ya i fit!) so maybe the weight distribution is freeked out with me behind the wheel. but such fishtailing and spin outs shouldnt be happening... i get it out of the shop on 11/27/12. im going to air out the body shop smells and dust and trade it in on a ragtop 2012 camaro! bye yall!!!!
Rear engine rear wheel drive cars are notorious for being vicious past the limit. Porsche has been trying to counter this for more than 80 years. I believe their GT2 was known as the "widowmaker". However, recent strides in engineering have put them towards the top in the handling department.
