ohw

I always wonder about the comments about the Z being unsafe. I drove my 04 from Canada to Denver at end of March this year. The car is completely stock, including the 040's. We went thru heavy rain, complete white-out snow, standing water, freezing temperature, and some sun along the way. I was going at reasonable speed too, a normally 18 hours trip took me just over 13 hours. Not once did I experience the horror as described by some of you. The car is just down right stable. Is it possible that you changed you speed or direction rapidly when you hit the puddle? Did the back end come out AFTER you lifted off the gas? Or when you tried to speed up? Were you holding the steering wheel snug as you hit the puddles?

Spike100

It's all about the tires. I drive the Z in all sorts of conditions (dry or wet pavement, in the rain, and on snow and ice). You only need to have the correct tires for the conditions and the roadway.

For winter driving, you should mount 4 snowtires (Blizzak is a good choice). 4 snows are important since you need to stop as well as go. During the summer months, mount a performance tire. The OEM Bridgestone Potenza RE040 are adequate, but hitting a "pond" of standing water with these "wooden sidewall" tires can be scary. Better tires make the problem (hydroplaning) go away.

These "summer-performance" tires are just great (running on dry pavement, wet pavement, and in the rain):

Goodyear Eagle F1 GS-D3
Michelin PS2

Either of these tires will throw-off water and dig down to the pavement for secure handling in wet conditions. Other advantages when using these tires are quiet running and their softer sidewalls provide a more comfortable ride.

--Spike

BRONZEE

My 2 cents worth. I didn't have any nasty scares when I still had the stock RE040's on, but this maybe because I drive a large amount of kms every year & all that goes with that. I personally do not like the way the stock RE040's handle at all. They're dangerous in heavy rain, they're noisy, like scating on marbles and IMO they're average in the dry. Might be great on the German Autobahn or in a controlled environment of a circuit, but most of us aren't on the Autobahn.

I'm on my 2nd set of GS-D3's now, having gone back to them as soon as I'd done my dash with the RE040's.

All of this said in NZ we only have tarmac roads and the odd paved road. Our roads can be unforgiving, often on the wrong camber, uneven surface and as we're on an istmus the weather changes very quickly, like 4 seasons in one day. It will often rain extremely heavily, having been sunny 5 minutes beforehand with a dry road. So great tyres are extremely important in this type of situation.

It would have a lot of do with the particular person's driving style. My GS-D3's suit my driving style.

To the OP, what type of tyres have you driven on before that you liked? Start your process of elimination from there.

wasmith

OHW, with all due respect. I'm not some tweenage punk that doesn't understand the consequences of a fast moving object on a slick surface.

I've been driving for 15 years and have not had a single accident due to the fact that I'm a very careful driver. (well, I did curb the rims on the Z right after I got it But, that doesn't count.)

And to be honest, if some of the "scenarios" that you suggest, would have been why I felt the car try to fishtail, I wouldn't be on this forum looking for advice. Because the problem would have been quite clear that it was operator error.

But, just for grins, I'll answer your questions anyway. Because I do appreciate the response, nonetheless.

Q: Is it possible that you changed you speed or direction rapidly when you hit the puddle?
A: I was traveling at 60mph and then 50mph on a straight stretch of road.

Q: Did the back end come out AFTER you lifted off the gas? Or when you tried to speed up?
A: I let up on the gas pedal AFTER I hit the puddle and the car started to produce a subtle fishtail. Only THEN did I slow down even more to mitigate the hydroplane effect. Speeding up would have only increased my chances of having further trouble. (all of this is in my original post)

Q:Were you holding the steering wheel snug as you hit the puddles?
A:Yes, I was holding on to the steering wheel firmly. Just as most "careful" drivers would while driving on a wet road.

Because you did not experience this problem during your timultuous drive, it appears that you assume it was "operator error".

Since this is the first time I've ever experienced this problem, I have to assume it was due to something out of my control. (i.e. the tires being improper for the road conditions.)

And that was the sole reason I posted my concerns on this forum.

Thanks again for the response. And I'm glad we were able to clear up a few things.

ohw

Sorry wasmith that my post came across as I assumed you were some teenage punk driver. It’s not meant to be as I made no such assumption. My apologies if that offended you.

There were many posts before yours over the years with a similar topic. These posts show many Z owners had similar experience as yours. Yet, there are some of us never have the same encounters. We can see some of the examples on this thread alone. I have always been puzzled over this. How can it be so different?

There are 3 main factors that could cause the slides: the car, the road condition, and the driver. The descriptions of the road conditions appear to be similar in many posts. I have gone thru them 1st hand with no drama. That leaves either the drivers or the cars. Seems the stock 040 on the Zs are the worst case, and I didn’t have the same experience with them on. By the process of elimination, the driver is the only remaining factor. That’s why I am asking the questions. There is still no conclusion.

Kolia

iTrader: (2)

Mmmmh, no I don't think so.

Wet pavement still has a good amount of grip. As long as the water is being displaced and channelled away from the thread, we're very close to being in the dry. The contact patch at least is almost dry.

But as soon as we get a film of water between the thread and the pavement, grip drops to near zero. This is not something that is gradual. Grip might not go away all at once considering only part of a threaded tire might hydroplane, but still, locally it is an ON/OFF affair.

I can't find my reference for that one, but hydro planing has a lot to do with the thread design and how fast water can "escape" from under the thread. That movement is done laterally (water displaced toward the front only creates a standing wave). The soonest it encounters a groove, the better. THe thread will then have a "dry" contact patch. If that groove isn't deep enough to evacuate the water, hydroplaning will occur (worn tires vs new one). Also, the wider the tire, the longer the distance to a groove and the lower the hydroplaning speed threshold will be. Just envision a full slick tire in the rain. If you're theory was correct, rain tires with grooves would not need to exist.

Vertical loading has some limited effect. Water being uncompressible, when the tire "catches up" to the standing wave or simply move too fast for water to escape laterally, it will hydroplane.

Kolia

iTrader: (2)

This is debatable, but you're the only one who can really identify the source of the fishtailing.

You have to know the reason why the rear end lost traction in order to apply the correct reaction. The Z is very close to 50/50 weight distribution. 53/47 if I recall. Pretty centered and relatively short wheelbase.

One thing is sure, when you hit a puddle, you slow down. Enough to transfer weight to the front and unload the rear tires. I'm sure that lifting when you hit the puddle did not help your situation. In fact, giving some gas to keep the car level might have prevented the loss of rear traction. Not flooring it, just enough to maintain speed. It's a balancing act you have to do.

Next time, slow down before the puddle and hold here steady, with a bit more gas, to keep her [the car] balanced.

Oh, better tires will work wonders of course...

Behemel

iTrader: (13)

Michelin stopped producing the Pilot Sport, and now only produce the Pilot Sport 2. I actually just put on a new set recently.

wasmith

A slight update:

You guys were spot on that it was the tires. I finally got around to checking the thread depth on those RE40's (rear).

In 3 1/5 (not 2 like I thought) months and around 6k miles (took 2 long road trips) the tread measured 3/32".

YIKES! Not only do the tires suck on wet roads. They suck on tread life as well.

I think I'm gonna go with some BFGoodrich g-Force T/A KDW 2's in a few months.

The screwed up thing is, I have a brand new pair of RE40's (front) sitting in the garage. Found a good deal on them and bought 'em for spares. Oh well...

Thanks again to everyone that posted. Much appreciated.

SirSpeedyZ

iTrader: (10)

those tires sock, get different ones and you'll be good to go.

billp

I have been reading this forum for awhile and too worried about the rain/tire issue. This last weekend, I went to Seattle and hit rain on the pass, going and coming. I slowed a bit and "sort of tested the traction" I have Toyo Proxes TPT tires and I felt that they really "held the road". When coming out of the gas station Sunday AM it had been raining and the road was puddled. I have an AT. I really gassed it while leaving the station and it just "fished" slightly and then "grabbed" the road. I'm an old fart and probably don't drive like younger guys with a MT do, but I feel pretty comfortable driiving in the rain with the Z. Of course, if I bounce off a wall, I'll probably have to reavaluate)

wasmith

Thanks for the reply Bill. Good thing you replaced the stock Potenza's.

I1DER

Without a doubt there are surfaces more and less likely to cause hydroplaning. The more banked or 'crowned' the road is, the quicker the run-off and less puddling which is the biggest reason for sudden hydroplaning.

Some surfaces wear quickly from heavy trucks or, in the North, also from snow chains/cables and studded tires. These worn areas become depressed tracks in the pavement and will naturally hold water more than adjoining surfaces.

If you are going a lot slower than other traffic, there is nobody in front of you to spash the water out of these depressions or holding areas before your tires hit them. Moving to the right where trucks run the same track and going slower than the traffic, isn't always the safest thing to do.

I1DER

After Kolias explanations, anyone that still wonders if our wider tires hydroplane easier than regular tires just have to think of why water skis are wider than snow skis. They hydroplane better.

Ebony350

iTrader: (1)

Have you had an alignment ?

marhot

Yeah, I have been around here since ’03. Unfortunately, I’ve read way too many stories like this. In the winter, though, the stories get worst. All you new owners here, NEVER ATTEMPT TO DRIVE IN THE SNOW IN THIS CAR.

IMHO, the Z is a fair weather car.

I’m fortunate that my Z is my toy. She rarely is driven in rain only when I’m caught. She has been in the rain about half dozen times in 4 years and never driven in snow. And yeah, she IS a garage queen.

I know the majority of you guys out there don’t have that luxury and yours is your daily driver. Best advice: ditch the original tires, get some good rain tires, and never drive in snow. And you guys that live in where it snows, get a beater to drive in the winter.

My .02.

BRONZEE

Ultimately Wasmith, whatever tyres you go with make sure you have a full set of 4. It's not the best mixing tread patterns front and back for general road driving.

kaos1

iTrader: (1)

the stock tires are crap

Accordaleer

iTrader: (5)

Im too lazy to look it up, i know bout tirerack, but has the Z come with the same tires all these years? I do drive automatic but on wet pavement i can floor it with tcs off and the car just goes. And i drive normal during rain and the car stick great, and this is my first rwd car too. I did get the back end to do a little squiggle flooring it out of sbucks onto the highway, but barely lol. I have an 07, idk ill look it up i guess, im gonna get snow tires in few months anyway, ive read how you guys all hate the stock tires. Thats why i just tore up a parking lot lol. I left tonsssss of marks and got some cool videos, surprised i cant even notice a difference in tread depth, was doing figure 8's and donuts was fun.

Funny, friend who drives a mustang GT was screaming, he was like omg your car is nuts!!!, i showed off the awesome handling that his mustang lacks haha. His car does sound great tho, i wont get into racing but you know who spanked who