Brembo brake difference (vital)
Registered User
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 531
Likes: 1
From: ---
My two cents...
ABS vs. no ABS:
It depends on many things, but it is possible that a skilled driver can do better without ABS. A driver that is not that skilled will usually do better with ABS. In the end though, I think it takes an extremely good ABS system to work better than no ABS for the skilled driver. Is the 350z ABS that good? I don't know. If the system isn't very good, the moment you engage ABS you lose full braking capacity for some time period. In the same situation without ABS, it is possible that the skilled driver can modulate the pedal to get back to full braking capacity more quickly. Of course, stopping distance will always be shorter by avoiding wheel lockup completely, so the tires are right at the edge starting to slide very, very slightly.
Standard brakes vs. Track or other larger brakes:
Assuming you're using street compound pads that don't require a lot of heat to work, the first stop or even the first few will be the same for all. Any measured difference can be attributed to testing variances. The standard brakes on the 350z work well enough that the tires are the limiting factor, at least for the first stop.
When you start looking at consecutive stops with little cooling time, the extra mass of the bigger brake rotors will come into play. The bigger brakes will not fade as easily because the operating temperatures are kept in a range where the pads and fluid can work.
With all that said, the multi pistion calipers do have an advantage when it comes to modulating the brakes. The pedal feel will be better because of less pad taper, less backing plate flex, and less caliper flex. This could allow for slightly shorter stopping distances, and is one of the variables that has to be considered when comparing different brake setups.
ABS vs. no ABS:
It depends on many things, but it is possible that a skilled driver can do better without ABS. A driver that is not that skilled will usually do better with ABS. In the end though, I think it takes an extremely good ABS system to work better than no ABS for the skilled driver. Is the 350z ABS that good? I don't know. If the system isn't very good, the moment you engage ABS you lose full braking capacity for some time period. In the same situation without ABS, it is possible that the skilled driver can modulate the pedal to get back to full braking capacity more quickly. Of course, stopping distance will always be shorter by avoiding wheel lockup completely, so the tires are right at the edge starting to slide very, very slightly.
Standard brakes vs. Track or other larger brakes:
Assuming you're using street compound pads that don't require a lot of heat to work, the first stop or even the first few will be the same for all. Any measured difference can be attributed to testing variances. The standard brakes on the 350z work well enough that the tires are the limiting factor, at least for the first stop.
When you start looking at consecutive stops with little cooling time, the extra mass of the bigger brake rotors will come into play. The bigger brakes will not fade as easily because the operating temperatures are kept in a range where the pads and fluid can work.
With all that said, the multi pistion calipers do have an advantage when it comes to modulating the brakes. The pedal feel will be better because of less pad taper, less backing plate flex, and less caliper flex. This could allow for slightly shorter stopping distances, and is one of the variables that has to be considered when comparing different brake setups.
Last edited by GaryK; Jul 18, 2003 at 09:07 PM.
Here is the #1 reason you can't out-brake the ABS on our Zs:
While you, as a driver, can modulate the brake pedal to threshold brake, maybe perfectly, you are controlling all four wheels at once. This means that in all but a very few cases you are not getting the maximum braking from each wheel; you are simply threshold braking the wheel with the least traction.
On the other hand, our Zs have dynamic brake balancing, which means it applies ABS individually to each wheel as it senses impending lock-up. This means the system is threshold braking each wheel independently. You are unable to do that, as a driver, because you only have one pedal.
Most "lesser" cars apply the ABS as a all-or-nothing affair just like like the single-pedal the driver gets. But we are fortunate to have a more sophisticated, more capable system that can threshold brake each wheel according to its needs. And it responds faster and more precisely than the driver can, especially if he has several things to worry about, like braking at just the right time to hit the perfect apex, the guy coming up fast in his rear-view mirror, the heal-toe downshift he's trying to execute perfectly, etc.
This is why the car can always do a better job.
While you, as a driver, can modulate the brake pedal to threshold brake, maybe perfectly, you are controlling all four wheels at once. This means that in all but a very few cases you are not getting the maximum braking from each wheel; you are simply threshold braking the wheel with the least traction.
On the other hand, our Zs have dynamic brake balancing, which means it applies ABS individually to each wheel as it senses impending lock-up. This means the system is threshold braking each wheel independently. You are unable to do that, as a driver, because you only have one pedal.
Most "lesser" cars apply the ABS as a all-or-nothing affair just like like the single-pedal the driver gets. But we are fortunate to have a more sophisticated, more capable system that can threshold brake each wheel according to its needs. And it responds faster and more precisely than the driver can, especially if he has several things to worry about, like braking at just the right time to hit the perfect apex, the guy coming up fast in his rear-view mirror, the heal-toe downshift he's trying to execute perfectly, etc.
This is why the car can always do a better job.
Charter Member #53
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 522
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From: ATL/Auburn U.
Ok, form what I have read on here there is some good info, a bit of bad info, and some that is just sorta off.
OK.. On one or two Quick stops at high speed there is very little differences in stopping distances. Thoes wishing there were tests of this search for Stop-tec info.. they did tests and they found only small differences in stopping distances on the first few stops.
I also found this to be true as I have auto-x'ed a Z with and without Brembos.
Unless you are going to track your car then there is no need for the Brembo's or any Big Brake Kit.
That is is.. Very simple. If you want to spend the money on the Brembo's just for show then go for it. If you need them for the Track, you already know that. And if you don't want to spend the extra money.. you know you don't really need to.
OK.. On one or two Quick stops at high speed there is very little differences in stopping distances. Thoes wishing there were tests of this search for Stop-tec info.. they did tests and they found only small differences in stopping distances on the first few stops.
I also found this to be true as I have auto-x'ed a Z with and without Brembos.
Unless you are going to track your car then there is no need for the Brembo's or any Big Brake Kit.
That is is.. Very simple. If you want to spend the money on the Brembo's just for show then go for it. If you need them for the Track, you already know that. And if you don't want to spend the extra money.. you know you don't really need to.
Registered User
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 719
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From: Sydney, Australia
Originally posted by bhobson333
This has been a good discussion of ABS but.... I think you guys missed my point.
Let me try to explain it: Take a Track and a Touring in a cold-brake hard stop: same speed, same weight, same tires, same brake temperature, same brake pedal pressure.
As they stop the car, because they have less heat-dissipation capacity than those of the Track, the Touring's brake pads and rotors are going to get hotter than the Track's. As they get hotter the pad's coefficient of drag gets higher (the pads get stickier). Thus, all things being equal, the Tourings wheels will tend to lock up sooner, engaging ABS sooner.
Assuming the wheels never lockup (wheel lockup is theoretically impossible with ABS), a braking system stops the car faster with ABS not engaged (constant pressure between the pads & disks) than it does with ABS engaged (rapid pulses of pressure). Thus if you can avoid engaging ABS with the same amount of pad-disk pressure you will stop faster. The Brembos do this by dissipating the heat better.
This has been a good discussion of ABS but.... I think you guys missed my point.
Let me try to explain it: Take a Track and a Touring in a cold-brake hard stop: same speed, same weight, same tires, same brake temperature, same brake pedal pressure.
As they stop the car, because they have less heat-dissipation capacity than those of the Track, the Touring's brake pads and rotors are going to get hotter than the Track's. As they get hotter the pad's coefficient of drag gets higher (the pads get stickier). Thus, all things being equal, the Tourings wheels will tend to lock up sooner, engaging ABS sooner.
Assuming the wheels never lockup (wheel lockup is theoretically impossible with ABS), a braking system stops the car faster with ABS not engaged (constant pressure between the pads & disks) than it does with ABS engaged (rapid pulses of pressure). Thus if you can avoid engaging ABS with the same amount of pad-disk pressure you will stop faster. The Brembos do this by dissipating the heat better.
If as you say the Touring pad and rotors get hotter as you break, the breaks will then begin to fade, meaning that the breaks will not slow the car effectively. When breaks are fading badly, the friction between the tyres and road is greater than between the pads and rotors, so if the tyre is not skiding under a fade break, then the ABS will not come on. This is why one of the Touring models ran off the racetrack when he tried to out break a Track Z - ABS didn't activate as his tyres never lost traction.
To get the good oil on breaks go to www.superchargersonline.com (one of this sites sponsors) and read the article on "The Breaking Equation".
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