Burned an Audi S-4
10-02-2002, 04:57 AM
#61
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Originally posted by rodH
Why is torque always talked about so much, I think it is very overrated.
example, the Z has more torque and less wt than the M3, BUT the M is quicker
another, the Mustang has more torque than an M, the M is quicker.
My dads CLK55 has 392 lbs-torque, BUT the M is quicker!!!
Why is torque always talked about so much, I think it is very overrated.
example, the Z has more torque and less wt than the M3, BUT the M is quicker
another, the Mustang has more torque than an M, the M is quicker.
My dads CLK55 has 392 lbs-torque, BUT the M is quicker!!!
With that in mind, I will tell you about a race I had with a 2002 E46 BMW M3. I was in my 1987 Buick Regal GN.
Let first take a look at the specs:
2002 E46 BMW M3
Engine: 3.2L I6
Horsepower 333 @ 7900 RPM
Torque(ft-lb) 262 @ 4900 RPM
Weight: 3781lb
1987 Buick Regal GN
Engine: 3.8L V6
Horsepower 245 @ 4400 RPM
Torque(ft-lb) 355 @ 2000 RPM
Weight: 3800lb
The BMW definitely has the power-to-weight advantage.
So we're lined up and the BMW driver issues the count...
I took him out of the hole and continued to put 8-10 car lengths on him before letting up somewhere between 90-100mph. Yes, torque matters. I put most of the distance on him before I got to 60mph.
btw, getting an engine to breathe well has to do with revs, good luck getting an American V8 to rev to 8K, good freakin luck (Oh, I know, you can get it done with lots of race parts, BUT it won't be dependable or pass smog). many of these cars have superior technology in the cams, the valves, the intake, pistons and cylinder linings. Don't fool yourself and think that there is no difference in a car that is able to rev like that and one that isn't.
And I never said there was no difference in high revving engines and low revving engines.
I'll use the 5.0 as an example. It has restrictive heads, restrictive intake, restrictive exhaust, small valves, small cam. There are sections in the stock headers that you can't even get your pinky through. It redlines at 6000rpm.
If you removed the rev-limiter and spun it past 6000rpm, that isn't going to make it breathe any better. It's still sucking air in and pushing it out through the proverbial straw.
Now one of the reasons the 5.0 is so popular is because it responds well to mods. And one of the reasons it responds so well to mods is because all the stock parts are so restrictive. So just about anything to do to it is an improvment.
In my case, I had the heads mildly ported to remove the EGR hump in the exhaust ports; the valves enlarged slightly; a bigger cam, a Cobra intake, and complete exhaust upgrade. Let me tell you, the difference is quite noticible over stock. It pulls a lot harder all the way past redline. I even ran down a new BMW M coupe - we were going 70 and he hit it first getting a nice jump on me.
The torque is still there, too. When I hit it at low rpm, the throttle response is neck-snapping, and it's quite easy to break the tires loose.
I don't know where you get the idea that modified American V8s aren't reliable. My Mustang has 150000 miles on it. It has been raced a lot. And it still has the stock pistons, rods and crank. And it still runs fine.
If there were NOTHING to it, the americans would do it and still keep the prices low, BUT that is impossible.
Now compare & contrast the 5.0 I've been talking about. It doesn't need to be spun that fast to make the same horsepower. And it has plenty of grunt right off idle. It doesn't need 4-valve-per-cylinder heads, radical cams, free-flowing exhaust and intake to make the same power. It does it at a low, usable rpm with cheap parts.
Then there's the LS1 - better heads, better intake, better cam, etc... It revs higher and makes a lot more horsepower. And it still has an abundance of usable torque down low.
The point here is there's no magic about foreign engines. Sure, they can make the same power as larger American engines, but that's because of the following: Horsepower = Torque * RPM/5252. They do it by increasing RPM by using components that allow for better breathing and internals that can withstand high rpms. And better-breathing components & internals can also be used on American V8s. If some shade-tree mechanic can build a high-revving, high-horsepower engine in his garage, then I'm sure Ford, GM and Chrysler can do the same.
Last edited by lyonsd; 10-02-2002 at 05:26 AM.
10-05-2002, 06:01 PM
#62
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Posts: n/a
Speaking of S4's. I don't know if it was just a re-badged A4, or if it was the real deal. But I took one off the line, in my tub-o-lard E320 and beat him by a car-length. Now either the guy was shifting using his butt-cheeks, or it was just an S4 wannabe. Either way, he looked and sounded like he was trying.
10-05-2002, 07:46 PM
#63
I guess you totally ignored my origional post so I will post it again
Why is torque always talked about so much, I think it is very overrated.
example, the Z has more torque and less wt than the M3, BUT the M is quicker
another, the Mustang has more torque than an M, the M is quicker.
My dads CLK55 has 392 lbs-torque, BUT the M is quicker!!!
This is 3 examples of using the same drivers in the same mags, as for your experiences, have you every thought that maybe you are the better driver??? props to you "Mario"
Why is torque always talked about so much, I think it is very overrated.
example, the Z has more torque and less wt than the M3, BUT the M is quicker
another, the Mustang has more torque than an M, the M is quicker.
My dads CLK55 has 392 lbs-torque, BUT the M is quicker!!!
This is 3 examples of using the same drivers in the same mags, as for your experiences, have you every thought that maybe you are the better driver??? props to you "Mario"
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