If Porsche Really Is the Benchmark..........
10-23-2008, 09:08 PM
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If Porsche Really Is the Benchmark..........
......then Porsche have left Nissan a strategic opening, which Nissan should exploit.
Consider: Nissan used the 911 Turbo as the yardstick for the GT-R, and the Cayman S for the 370Z. So why stop at mere emulation?
It is widely accepted in Porsche circles that Porsche Ing will never allow the Cayman S to be as fast or faster than the beloved 911. This leaves open a chance for Nissan to truly distinguish the 370Z from the Cayman S ...... by installing the V8. Can you say 400Z?
Porsche will never slap a turbo on the Cayman S, and certainly wouldn't even consider adding a V8 to the lineup. Just think what a monster the Cayman S would be with the V8 from the Cayenne S bolted in. Whew! But it'll never happen. This is a gift to Nissan.
The 370Z with a V8 in it (400Z?) would be a rocket ship, leaving the Cayman S (and likely the 911, too) gasping for air.
If only someone from Nissan's Marketing Dept. was listening.
How many of us would pony up another $10K for the V8?
One potential conflict: The 400Z might be nearly as fast as the GT-R for a lot less money. Can anyone compare potential performance figures?
Comments?
BC
Consider: Nissan used the 911 Turbo as the yardstick for the GT-R, and the Cayman S for the 370Z. So why stop at mere emulation?
It is widely accepted in Porsche circles that Porsche Ing will never allow the Cayman S to be as fast or faster than the beloved 911. This leaves open a chance for Nissan to truly distinguish the 370Z from the Cayman S ...... by installing the V8. Can you say 400Z?
Porsche will never slap a turbo on the Cayman S, and certainly wouldn't even consider adding a V8 to the lineup. Just think what a monster the Cayman S would be with the V8 from the Cayenne S bolted in. Whew! But it'll never happen. This is a gift to Nissan.
The 370Z with a V8 in it (400Z?) would be a rocket ship, leaving the Cayman S (and likely the 911, too) gasping for air.
If only someone from Nissan's Marketing Dept. was listening.
How many of us would pony up another $10K for the V8?
One potential conflict: The 400Z might be nearly as fast as the GT-R for a lot less money. Can anyone compare potential performance figures?
Comments?
BC
10-23-2008, 09:14 PM
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I don't have to compare Nissans to Porsches. Nissan already has in the development of both the GT-R and now 370Z.
Suppose Porsche got its head out of its rear and gave the Cayman S the kind of power the platform deserved, leaving the 370Z in its dust in the process. How should Nissan respond? Going the FI route adds complexity. Adding a V8 adds grunt.
Yes, I agree Nissan has always just added boost in the past. But that was before they had products like the Titan - an All Amurrican V8 truck.
BC
Suppose Porsche got its head out of its rear and gave the Cayman S the kind of power the platform deserved, leaving the 370Z in its dust in the process. How should Nissan respond? Going the FI route adds complexity. Adding a V8 adds grunt.
Yes, I agree Nissan has always just added boost in the past. But that was before they had products like the Titan - an All Amurrican V8 truck.
BC
Last edited by zed-er; 10-23-2008 at 09:19 PM.
10-23-2008, 09:21 PM
#6
Suppose Porsche got its head out of its rear and gave the Cayman S the kind of power the platform deserved, leaving the 370Z in its dust in the process. How should Nissan respond? Going the FI route adds complexity. Adding a V8 adds grunt.
Yes, I agree Nissan has always just added boost in the past. But that was before they had products like the Titan - an All Amurrican V8 truck.
BC
Yes, I agree Nissan has always just added boost in the past. But that was before they had products like the Titan - an All Amurrican V8 truck.
BC
More people would buy them just so they could upgrade the Turbo.
I think Nissan could make it happen for a cost of less than 500 bucks, and acctually charge 1,500 more all day long.
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10-23-2008, 09:39 PM
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Been called many things. Naive is not one of them.
Why did Nissan use the 911 Turbo and Cayman S as benchmarks then? Why did Nissan brag about beating Porsche's best time around the 'Ring?
Is Nissan just infatuated with Porsche's prestige and racing heritage? I seriously doubt it.
Nissan wants some of that currency (street cred) for themselves.
Even if Nissan just added one or two turbos to the Z, (which I'd be fine with, BTW), this current scenario in which Porsche refuses to let the Cayman S outperform the 911, presents a huge opportunity for Nissan. Here's a chance for Nissan to poke a finger in Porsche's eye, just like they did in IMSA racing back in the 80s.
I'm a Porsche nut from way back. I've been really considering the Cayman S for a while now. But it's just more $ than I want to spend. I'm getting in touch with my inner miser. And it's so frustrating to see Porsche handicap the Cayman S with far less power than it could handle. The 370Z has really got my attention. I'll be at the LA Auto Show to see it and decide whether or not to pull the trigger. Vehicle dynamics will be the ultimate test, however.
It will be interesting to see if Nissan puts the new Z's capabilities to full use, or stops short of challenging Porsche. On the other hand, it may take Nissan adding boost to the Z and embarrassing the Cayman S to shame Porsche into putting more grunt into the Cayman platform.
Ain't marketing a chess game?
BC
zed-er
Why did Nissan use the 911 Turbo and Cayman S as benchmarks then? Why did Nissan brag about beating Porsche's best time around the 'Ring?
Is Nissan just infatuated with Porsche's prestige and racing heritage? I seriously doubt it.
Nissan wants some of that currency (street cred) for themselves.
Even if Nissan just added one or two turbos to the Z, (which I'd be fine with, BTW), this current scenario in which Porsche refuses to let the Cayman S outperform the 911, presents a huge opportunity for Nissan. Here's a chance for Nissan to poke a finger in Porsche's eye, just like they did in IMSA racing back in the 80s.
I'm a Porsche nut from way back. I've been really considering the Cayman S for a while now. But it's just more $ than I want to spend. I'm getting in touch with my inner miser. And it's so frustrating to see Porsche handicap the Cayman S with far less power than it could handle. The 370Z has really got my attention. I'll be at the LA Auto Show to see it and decide whether or not to pull the trigger. Vehicle dynamics will be the ultimate test, however.
It will be interesting to see if Nissan puts the new Z's capabilities to full use, or stops short of challenging Porsche. On the other hand, it may take Nissan adding boost to the Z and embarrassing the Cayman S to shame Porsche into putting more grunt into the Cayman platform.
Ain't marketing a chess game?
BC
zed-er
10-23-2008, 09:49 PM
#9
The Z is supposed to be an affordable mass produced sports car, and the initial price point in 2002 was to start out under $30k. Nissan succeeded with a base Z of ~$26k. The base '08 Z currently costs ~$28k, which is more than what I paid for my Enthusiast in 2002. Remember what killed of the Z over decade ago? Inflation dragged the cost of this high tech Japanese super car beyond $40k when SUVs were becoming popular. I fear the GT-R is going down the same road.
Dropping a V8 in a Z is a suicide mission because we're in a time when the market is shifting away from gas guzzling V8s to something more less fuel thirsty. Porsche is trying to bring in direct injection technology to their newest models without the need to increase displacement, add cylinders, or even boost.
The VQ37VHR is an interesting engine, and I don't mind having one. Personally, this engine doesn't really impress me much in stock form. Look at the 3700+ lb G37. I question whether the power is overrated for this car, but we'll see what it can do with a few hundred pounds off.
Dropping a V8 in a Z is a suicide mission because we're in a time when the market is shifting away from gas guzzling V8s to something more less fuel thirsty. Porsche is trying to bring in direct injection technology to their newest models without the need to increase displacement, add cylinders, or even boost.
The VQ37VHR is an interesting engine, and I don't mind having one. Personally, this engine doesn't really impress me much in stock form. Look at the 3700+ lb G37. I question whether the power is overrated for this car, but we'll see what it can do with a few hundred pounds off.
10-23-2008, 09:52 PM
#10
The Cayman S main "crippleware" was the exclusion of an LSD, so that its performance numbers underscored the base 911 which costs ~$20k more with a slightly higher curb weight and 30 more horsepower from the larger engine. From a purely OEM performance standpoint, the 911 is faster than the Cayman S.
Nissan is in a good position since it's benchmark was the Cayman S. If the next Z can keep its curb weight right around 3000lbs, and with the 3.7 engine, and whatever extra power Nissan may be able to squeeze out of it, and assuming that Nissan played their cards right as far as handling and things of that nature go, the new Z can potentially be a step ahead of the Cayman S, even more so with the inclusion of an LSD. The new Z could be nipping at the heels of the base 911, as far as performance goes.
TK
Nissan is in a good position since it's benchmark was the Cayman S. If the next Z can keep its curb weight right around 3000lbs, and with the 3.7 engine, and whatever extra power Nissan may be able to squeeze out of it, and assuming that Nissan played their cards right as far as handling and things of that nature go, the new Z can potentially be a step ahead of the Cayman S, even more so with the inclusion of an LSD. The new Z could be nipping at the heels of the base 911, as far as performance goes.
TK
10-23-2008, 10:03 PM
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DIGI,
Certainly Nissan has the technical chops to add direct injection as well, yes? I don't know enough about the VQ series. It would appear by all the great press this engine has received that it would be a good candidate to be building block in a long-term engine program.
Wasn't it Nissan who owned the patent for the balancing shaft that Porsche used in the 944 4cyl engine back in the 80s? I can remember hearing how much engineering effort Porsche put into trying to successfully develop a competing technology, just so they wouldn't have to pay Nissan something like an $8 license for every engine they built. Eventually, Porsche engineering gave up and paid the license to Nissan.
I'd be very surprised if Nissan hasn't already had this very discussion quite some time ago about long term Z development options. Japanese manufacturers, even those owned by the French, don't make the first weld until a solid business case has been made, including long term product development and future product enhancements. Nissan very likely already knows what their next several steps will be based on the reaction of the car buying public to the new Z, and the response of their competitors.
I will say, though, I'm amused at Porsche's public whining about Nissan's 'Ring time in the GT-R. Porsche hates to be shown up. ;-)
BC
zed-er
Certainly Nissan has the technical chops to add direct injection as well, yes? I don't know enough about the VQ series. It would appear by all the great press this engine has received that it would be a good candidate to be building block in a long-term engine program.
Wasn't it Nissan who owned the patent for the balancing shaft that Porsche used in the 944 4cyl engine back in the 80s? I can remember hearing how much engineering effort Porsche put into trying to successfully develop a competing technology, just so they wouldn't have to pay Nissan something like an $8 license for every engine they built. Eventually, Porsche engineering gave up and paid the license to Nissan.
I'd be very surprised if Nissan hasn't already had this very discussion quite some time ago about long term Z development options. Japanese manufacturers, even those owned by the French, don't make the first weld until a solid business case has been made, including long term product development and future product enhancements. Nissan very likely already knows what their next several steps will be based on the reaction of the car buying public to the new Z, and the response of their competitors.
I will say, though, I'm amused at Porsche's public whining about Nissan's 'Ring time in the GT-R. Porsche hates to be shown up. ;-)
BC
zed-er
10-23-2008, 10:06 PM
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TK
I think the '09 Cayman S, which is delayed until May or June, will have an LSD. But you're right. The omission of an LSD seriously hampers the Cayman platform. I think they're skipping the '09 model year and just calling it a 2010.
BC
zed-er
I think the '09 Cayman S, which is delayed until May or June, will have an LSD. But you're right. The omission of an LSD seriously hampers the Cayman platform. I think they're skipping the '09 model year and just calling it a 2010.
BC
zed-er
Last edited by zed-er; 10-23-2008 at 10:25 PM.
10-23-2008, 10:15 PM
#13
This topic slightly reminds me of the Corvette and the Camaro/Firebirds of the early/mid 90s.
You have the exact same V8 LT1 350ci in both cars, but the Camaro was detuned for obvious reasons. Most likely because GM didn't want the Camaro to be as quick as the flagship Corvette.
Nissan is smart for not making the Z more potent (or anywhere near as potent) as the GT-R. If that behemoth didn't come to the US, rest assured the Z would be a killer car.
Please don't flame me for calling the GT-R a behemoth. It is. It is truely a disgrace. $70k supercar? No it's a $70k car you can't drive like a supercar without voiding warranty.
My .03 cents (inflation)
You have the exact same V8 LT1 350ci in both cars, but the Camaro was detuned for obvious reasons. Most likely because GM didn't want the Camaro to be as quick as the flagship Corvette.
Nissan is smart for not making the Z more potent (or anywhere near as potent) as the GT-R. If that behemoth didn't come to the US, rest assured the Z would be a killer car.
Please don't flame me for calling the GT-R a behemoth. It is. It is truely a disgrace. $70k supercar? No it's a $70k car you can't drive like a supercar without voiding warranty.
My .03 cents (inflation)
10-23-2008, 10:24 PM
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I'm with you on the GT-R behemoth front, Ladyzed. While it may be a technical tour de force, it sure seems to have some Achilles heels. It's like Nissan said, "You can pound any square peg into any round hole if you use a big enough hammer." Just throw enough money at the laws of physics and you can change them.
It's interesting to see how Nissan is now using images of the GT-R in advertisements for several other products in the Nissan line.
It will be impossible to accurately predict the potential for future 370Z development until we get our hands on the car. Funny how it always comes back to that. It'll be interesting to see how the Z will compare with the GT-R and how (if) a turbo Z would fit into the grand scheme of things, from both a performance and cost perspective.
BC
zed-er
It's interesting to see how Nissan is now using images of the GT-R in advertisements for several other products in the Nissan line.
It will be impossible to accurately predict the potential for future 370Z development until we get our hands on the car. Funny how it always comes back to that. It'll be interesting to see how the Z will compare with the GT-R and how (if) a turbo Z would fit into the grand scheme of things, from both a performance and cost perspective.
BC
zed-er
10-23-2008, 10:35 PM
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Nissan is in a good position since it's benchmark was the Cayman S. If the next Z can keep its curb weight right around 3000lbs, and with the 3.7 engine, and whatever extra power Nissan may be able to squeeze out of it, and assuming that Nissan played their cards right as far as handling and things of that nature go, the new Z can potentially be a step ahead of the Cayman S, even more so with the inclusion of an LSD. The new Z could be nipping at the heels of the base 911, as far as performance goes.
As it is, the Cayman (+/- S) is a phenomenal machine not because of superior power output but because of lighter weight (under 3000 lbs) and superlative balance (midengine design and PASM help).
10-23-2008, 10:37 PM
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Nissan will never put 8 cylinders in the Z... It won't be a Z otherwise...
It's like putting a 6 in an Evo... or an STi... would they be Evos or STis with 6's?
Aint gonna happen.
Putting in an 8 would just mean more heft and weight. That is American thinking... either up displacement, or add more cylinders. I truly hope Nissan keeps it at 6.
It's like putting a 6 in an Evo... or an STi... would they be Evos or STis with 6's?
Aint gonna happen.
Putting in an 8 would just mean more heft and weight. That is American thinking... either up displacement, or add more cylinders. I truly hope Nissan keeps it at 6.
10-23-2008, 11:32 PM
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You are trying to compare apples to oranges. Sorry but it in almost every way including the customer care, Porsche is far superior. They are on a higher level when it comes to everything. Why do you think GT cars are mostly built off Porsche's?
When you walk into Porsche with bad syncro's they will probably suck you off and give you a loaner and get it done while wearing white gloves.
Nissan will have you make an appointment. THen you will get there and wait 30minutes to be served, then another 20 for the guy to come do a test drive. the nasty technician will get in your car and ruin your ****ing detail by putting his boots all over, then he will say "oh, thats normal, cause these cars make ****ing retarded noises..." Then you either have to ram your first into someones face to get your point across, or leave.
I really don't see why Nissan even needs to compete with Porsche in any market, they obviously ****ed up with their first "supercar". You also kind of have to understand just how good everything is built on a Porsche..Although the Z is built well, when do you think nissan will start offering the ferro carbon brakes? HUH!?
When you walk into Porsche with bad syncro's they will probably suck you off and give you a loaner and get it done while wearing white gloves.
Nissan will have you make an appointment. THen you will get there and wait 30minutes to be served, then another 20 for the guy to come do a test drive. the nasty technician will get in your car and ruin your ****ing detail by putting his boots all over, then he will say "oh, thats normal, cause these cars make ****ing retarded noises..." Then you either have to ram your first into someones face to get your point across, or leave.
I really don't see why Nissan even needs to compete with Porsche in any market, they obviously ****ed up with their first "supercar". You also kind of have to understand just how good everything is built on a Porsche..Although the Z is built well, when do you think nissan will start offering the ferro carbon brakes? HUH!?