tire feathering
07-14-2004, 10:11 AM
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Shopdog, that's got to be one of the more informed, if not *the most* informed post on this subject that I've seen. This should be made a sticky at the top of the hundreds of threads on this site about this subject!
I have a 2004 Roadster with a build date of 5/03. The last digits of my vin are 000016, so I assume it is one of the first 16 off the line. At 11,500 miles I too have confirmed I have the problem. Brought it into the dealer and they said the alignment was out "due to hitting a curb or something." Well, I've definitely never hit a curb, so I don't know how the alignment got thrown out. Anyway, they readjusted it but said I am not eligible for new front tires because the wear is not bad enough. Does anyone know how bad the wear has to be for them to replace the tires? They are quite noisy. Should I push back on them about this?
Finally, since I have such an early build date my suspension is the first rev. and is absolutely rock hard with the worst bounce on our highways around here you've ever seen--which explains the inside edge tire wear on the front tires as you explain above. I asked my dealer if they could replace my suspension with the newer one, but they said there was nothing they could do without authorization from Nissan. Nissan told me to see my dealer about it. Any ideas of what can be done here? The dealer said they would order the 2004.5 suspension for me (for around $800 in parts, plus $500-600 install) but it would be on my dime. At that price, would I be better off with S-Tune instead? Any ideas how I can get Nissan's attention in this matter?
Thanks!
Craig
I have a 2004 Roadster with a build date of 5/03. The last digits of my vin are 000016, so I assume it is one of the first 16 off the line. At 11,500 miles I too have confirmed I have the problem. Brought it into the dealer and they said the alignment was out "due to hitting a curb or something." Well, I've definitely never hit a curb, so I don't know how the alignment got thrown out. Anyway, they readjusted it but said I am not eligible for new front tires because the wear is not bad enough. Does anyone know how bad the wear has to be for them to replace the tires? They are quite noisy. Should I push back on them about this?
Finally, since I have such an early build date my suspension is the first rev. and is absolutely rock hard with the worst bounce on our highways around here you've ever seen--which explains the inside edge tire wear on the front tires as you explain above. I asked my dealer if they could replace my suspension with the newer one, but they said there was nothing they could do without authorization from Nissan. Nissan told me to see my dealer about it. Any ideas of what can be done here? The dealer said they would order the 2004.5 suspension for me (for around $800 in parts, plus $500-600 install) but it would be on my dime. At that price, would I be better off with S-Tune instead? Any ideas how I can get Nissan's attention in this matter?
Thanks!
Craig
Originally posted by shopdog
The issue isn't with the rear tires, it is with the front tires. It isn't true feathering either. It is more correctly called a cupping problem. The problem isn't due to negative camber or incorrect toe in adjustment, though both can and do aggrevate the problem in our cars. The problem is a combination of way excessive caster, soft OEM tires, and a suspension resonance that's inside the normal highway forcing rates of our American roadways.
Caster on the Z is about 3 times what is considered normal for this type of car. This causes a scrubbing motion of the trailing edge of the tire blocks along the inner tire edge each time the suspension jounces in any sort of turn. Caster is not adjustable on our cars. Nissan would have to re-engineer the suspension to fix that. They obviously don't want to do that, because it would cost them a ton of money, but it is the real fix for our problems.
The resonance problem is a result of the interaction between spring rate, dampening, and unsprung weight. All suspension systems have a resonance frequency, but normally the frequency is engineered to be outside the range of normal road forcing events. Unfortunately the 2003 and early 2004 setup has an undesirable resonance frequency for our highways. At forcing rates which couple to the suspension resonance, things can become quite violent. This repetitive pounding causes characteristic cupping of the sort we're seeing (an out of balance tire, or out of round rim would cause the same sort of problem, and are the usual causes for cupping on other vehicles).
Nissan did change the spring rate and dampening for the 2004.5 roadsters, that shifts the resonance frequency, so the cupping pattern should at least be *different* on the newer cars. But until the caster problem is corrected, it may not be gone.
Soft (sticky) tires are desirable in a performance car, and just switching to a harder tire compound has not fixed the problem for those who've tried it, though it does take a bit longer for the problem to appear with harder tires.
The issue isn't with the rear tires, it is with the front tires. It isn't true feathering either. It is more correctly called a cupping problem. The problem isn't due to negative camber or incorrect toe in adjustment, though both can and do aggrevate the problem in our cars. The problem is a combination of way excessive caster, soft OEM tires, and a suspension resonance that's inside the normal highway forcing rates of our American roadways.
Caster on the Z is about 3 times what is considered normal for this type of car. This causes a scrubbing motion of the trailing edge of the tire blocks along the inner tire edge each time the suspension jounces in any sort of turn. Caster is not adjustable on our cars. Nissan would have to re-engineer the suspension to fix that. They obviously don't want to do that, because it would cost them a ton of money, but it is the real fix for our problems.
The resonance problem is a result of the interaction between spring rate, dampening, and unsprung weight. All suspension systems have a resonance frequency, but normally the frequency is engineered to be outside the range of normal road forcing events. Unfortunately the 2003 and early 2004 setup has an undesirable resonance frequency for our highways. At forcing rates which couple to the suspension resonance, things can become quite violent. This repetitive pounding causes characteristic cupping of the sort we're seeing (an out of balance tire, or out of round rim would cause the same sort of problem, and are the usual causes for cupping on other vehicles).
Nissan did change the spring rate and dampening for the 2004.5 roadsters, that shifts the resonance frequency, so the cupping pattern should at least be *different* on the newer cars. But until the caster problem is corrected, it may not be gone.
Soft (sticky) tires are desirable in a performance car, and just switching to a harder tire compound has not fixed the problem for those who've tried it, though it does take a bit longer for the problem to appear with harder tires.
07-14-2004, 11:19 AM
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Craig,
My Vin is 0008, Build date of 5/03 as well....
My local dealer here in SD contacted me.....told me to come in for new tires and actually an new 18" rim as well. I had 13k miles on the car, so I would push them on this issue. I got a new rim and 2 new tires up front at no charge. They are also replacing the top when they get that in from the warehouse.
I am very interested in the suspension problem as well. If we push hard enough, we may be able to get something done. Keep me informed. If you need any info from me, PM me.
Jonathan
My Vin is 0008, Build date of 5/03 as well....
My local dealer here in SD contacted me.....told me to come in for new tires and actually an new 18" rim as well. I had 13k miles on the car, so I would push them on this issue. I got a new rim and 2 new tires up front at no charge. They are also replacing the top when they get that in from the warehouse.
I am very interested in the suspension problem as well. If we push hard enough, we may be able to get something done. Keep me informed. If you need any info from me, PM me.
Jonathan
Originally posted by jnanadev
Shopdog, that's got to be one of the more informed, if not *the most* informed post on this subject that I've seen. This should be made a sticky at the top of the hundreds of threads on this site about this subject!
I have a 2004 Roadster with a build date of 5/03. The last digits of my vin are 000016, so I assume it is one of the first 16 off the line. At 11,500 miles I too have confirmed I have the problem. Brought it into the dealer and they said the alignment was out "due to hitting a curb or something." Well, I've definitely never hit a curb, so I don't know how the alignment got thrown out. Anyway, they readjusted it but said I am not eligible for new front tires because the wear is not bad enough. Does anyone know how bad the wear has to be for them to replace the tires? They are quite noisy. Should I push back on them about this?
Finally, since I have such an early build date my suspension is the first rev. and is absolutely rock hard with the worst bounce on our highways around here you've ever seen--which explains the inside edge tire wear on the front tires as you explain above. I asked my dealer if they could replace my suspension with the newer one, but they said there was nothing they could do without authorization from Nissan. Nissan told me to see my dealer about it. Any ideas of what can be done here? The dealer said they would order the 2004.5 suspension for me (for around $800 in parts, plus $500-600 install) but it would be on my dime. At that price, would I be better off with S-Tune instead? Any ideas how I can get Nissan's attention in this matter?
Thanks!
Craig
Shopdog, that's got to be one of the more informed, if not *the most* informed post on this subject that I've seen. This should be made a sticky at the top of the hundreds of threads on this site about this subject!
I have a 2004 Roadster with a build date of 5/03. The last digits of my vin are 000016, so I assume it is one of the first 16 off the line. At 11,500 miles I too have confirmed I have the problem. Brought it into the dealer and they said the alignment was out "due to hitting a curb or something." Well, I've definitely never hit a curb, so I don't know how the alignment got thrown out. Anyway, they readjusted it but said I am not eligible for new front tires because the wear is not bad enough. Does anyone know how bad the wear has to be for them to replace the tires? They are quite noisy. Should I push back on them about this?
Finally, since I have such an early build date my suspension is the first rev. and is absolutely rock hard with the worst bounce on our highways around here you've ever seen--which explains the inside edge tire wear on the front tires as you explain above. I asked my dealer if they could replace my suspension with the newer one, but they said there was nothing they could do without authorization from Nissan. Nissan told me to see my dealer about it. Any ideas of what can be done here? The dealer said they would order the 2004.5 suspension for me (for around $800 in parts, plus $500-600 install) but it would be on my dime. At that price, would I be better off with S-Tune instead? Any ideas how I can get Nissan's attention in this matter?
Thanks!
Craig
07-14-2004, 07:34 PM
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Originally posted by SeanG
Mine are starting to wear excessively on the inside of the tire as well. The dealer is going to make the adjustments when I bring it in to have the top replaced. Build 7/03 Mileage 5,600.
Mine are starting to wear excessively on the inside of the tire as well. The dealer is going to make the adjustments when I bring it in to have the top replaced. Build 7/03 Mileage 5,600.
What's wrong with your top?
07-14-2004, 09:02 PM
#24
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Originally posted by jnanadev
Shopdog, that's got to be one of the more informed, if not *the most* informed post on this subject that I've seen. This should be made a sticky at the top of the hundreds of threads on this site about this subject!
Thanks.
I have a 2004 Roadster with a build date of 5/03. The last digits of my vin are 000016, so I assume it is one of the first 16 off the line. At 11,500 miles I too have confirmed I have the problem. Brought it into the dealer and they said the alignment was out "due to hitting a curb or something." Well, I've definitely never hit a curb, so I don't know how the alignment got thrown out. Anyway, they readjusted it but said I am not eligible for new front tires because the wear is not bad enough. Does anyone know how bad the wear has to be for them to replace the tires? They are quite noisy. Should I push back on them about this?
Yes, definitely. Nissan is offering new tires for the 2003 models, and since *they have not fixed the problem*, they owe it to the owners of the 2004 models too.
Finally, since I have such an early build date my suspension is the first rev. and is absolutely rock hard with the worst bounce on our highways around here you've ever seen--which explains the inside edge tire wear on the front tires as you explain above. I asked my dealer if they could replace my suspension with the newer one, but they said there was nothing they could do without authorization from Nissan. Nissan told me to see my dealer about it. Any ideas of what can be done here? The dealer said they would order the 2004.5 suspension for me (for around $800 in parts, plus $500-600 install) but it would be on my dime. At that price, would I be better off with S-Tune instead? Any ideas how I can get Nissan's attention in this matter?
The ride is definitely better with the 2004.5 suspension setup. I sincerely doubt you can get Nissan to pay for upgrading your car, though. It probably won't fix the tire wear problem anyway. If I were in your position, I'd go for the Koni suspension. That's better than stock, and it's adjustable so you can set it firm for the track and softer for the street. It doesn't cost that much more either. But it *still* won't cure the tire cupping problem. AFAIK, no one yet offers parts to let you adjust caster on the 350Z.
Shopdog, that's got to be one of the more informed, if not *the most* informed post on this subject that I've seen. This should be made a sticky at the top of the hundreds of threads on this site about this subject!
Thanks.
I have a 2004 Roadster with a build date of 5/03. The last digits of my vin are 000016, so I assume it is one of the first 16 off the line. At 11,500 miles I too have confirmed I have the problem. Brought it into the dealer and they said the alignment was out "due to hitting a curb or something." Well, I've definitely never hit a curb, so I don't know how the alignment got thrown out. Anyway, they readjusted it but said I am not eligible for new front tires because the wear is not bad enough. Does anyone know how bad the wear has to be for them to replace the tires? They are quite noisy. Should I push back on them about this?
Yes, definitely. Nissan is offering new tires for the 2003 models, and since *they have not fixed the problem*, they owe it to the owners of the 2004 models too.
Finally, since I have such an early build date my suspension is the first rev. and is absolutely rock hard with the worst bounce on our highways around here you've ever seen--which explains the inside edge tire wear on the front tires as you explain above. I asked my dealer if they could replace my suspension with the newer one, but they said there was nothing they could do without authorization from Nissan. Nissan told me to see my dealer about it. Any ideas of what can be done here? The dealer said they would order the 2004.5 suspension for me (for around $800 in parts, plus $500-600 install) but it would be on my dime. At that price, would I be better off with S-Tune instead? Any ideas how I can get Nissan's attention in this matter?
The ride is definitely better with the 2004.5 suspension setup. I sincerely doubt you can get Nissan to pay for upgrading your car, though. It probably won't fix the tire wear problem anyway. If I were in your position, I'd go for the Koni suspension. That's better than stock, and it's adjustable so you can set it firm for the track and softer for the street. It doesn't cost that much more either. But it *still* won't cure the tire cupping problem. AFAIK, no one yet offers parts to let you adjust caster on the 350Z.
07-14-2004, 11:25 PM
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Originally posted by shopdog
Originally posted by jnanadev
Shopdog, that's got to be one of the more informed, if not *the most* informed post on this subject that I've seen. This should be made a sticky at the top of the hundreds of threads on this site about this subject!
Thanks.
I have a 2004 Roadster with a build date of 5/03. The last digits of my vin are 000016, so I assume it is one of the first 16 off the line. At 11,500 miles I too have confirmed I have the problem. Brought it into the dealer and they said the alignment was out "due to hitting a curb or something." Well, I've definitely never hit a curb, so I don't know how the alignment got thrown out. Anyway, they readjusted it but said I am not eligible for new front tires because the wear is not bad enough. Does anyone know how bad the wear has to be for them to replace the tires? They are quite noisy. Should I push back on them about this?
Yes, definitely. Nissan is offering new tires for the 2003 models, and since *they have not fixed the problem*, they owe it to the owners of the 2004 models too.
Finally, since I have such an early build date my suspension is the first rev. and is absolutely rock hard with the worst bounce on our highways around here you've ever seen--which explains the inside edge tire wear on the front tires as you explain above. I asked my dealer if they could replace my suspension with the newer one, but they said there was nothing they could do without authorization from Nissan. Nissan told me to see my dealer about it. Any ideas of what can be done here? The dealer said they would order the 2004.5 suspension for me (for around $800 in parts, plus $500-600 install) but it would be on my dime. At that price, would I be better off with S-Tune instead? Any ideas how I can get Nissan's attention in this matter?
The ride is definitely better with the 2004.5 suspension setup. I sincerely doubt you can get Nissan to pay for upgrading your car, though. It probably won't fix the tire wear problem anyway. If I were in your position, I'd go for the Koni suspension. That's better than stock, and it's adjustable so you can set it firm for the track and softer for the street. It doesn't cost that much more either. But it *still* won't cure the tire cupping problem. AFAIK, no one yet offers parts to let you adjust caster on the 350Z.
Originally posted by jnanadev
Shopdog, that's got to be one of the more informed, if not *the most* informed post on this subject that I've seen. This should be made a sticky at the top of the hundreds of threads on this site about this subject!
Thanks.
I have a 2004 Roadster with a build date of 5/03. The last digits of my vin are 000016, so I assume it is one of the first 16 off the line. At 11,500 miles I too have confirmed I have the problem. Brought it into the dealer and they said the alignment was out "due to hitting a curb or something." Well, I've definitely never hit a curb, so I don't know how the alignment got thrown out. Anyway, they readjusted it but said I am not eligible for new front tires because the wear is not bad enough. Does anyone know how bad the wear has to be for them to replace the tires? They are quite noisy. Should I push back on them about this?
Yes, definitely. Nissan is offering new tires for the 2003 models, and since *they have not fixed the problem*, they owe it to the owners of the 2004 models too.
Finally, since I have such an early build date my suspension is the first rev. and is absolutely rock hard with the worst bounce on our highways around here you've ever seen--which explains the inside edge tire wear on the front tires as you explain above. I asked my dealer if they could replace my suspension with the newer one, but they said there was nothing they could do without authorization from Nissan. Nissan told me to see my dealer about it. Any ideas of what can be done here? The dealer said they would order the 2004.5 suspension for me (for around $800 in parts, plus $500-600 install) but it would be on my dime. At that price, would I be better off with S-Tune instead? Any ideas how I can get Nissan's attention in this matter?
The ride is definitely better with the 2004.5 suspension setup. I sincerely doubt you can get Nissan to pay for upgrading your car, though. It probably won't fix the tire wear problem anyway. If I were in your position, I'd go for the Koni suspension. That's better than stock, and it's adjustable so you can set it firm for the track and softer for the street. It doesn't cost that much more either. But it *still* won't cure the tire cupping problem. AFAIK, no one yet offers parts to let you adjust caster on the 350Z.
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