1-12" Sub or 2-10" Subs?
1-12" Sub or 2-10" Subs?
I am debating between the two Zenclosures for under the strut bar and was wondering what would be better to do, 1-12" sub or 2-10" subs? Which setup do people usually get and what provides the best bass? Also what channel amp did you use and with what wattage (Brand name and types would be very helpful)?
Thanks
Thanks
1 12" any day of the week. problem w/ those enclosures (why I sold mine ages ago) is it's not enough airspace for a "good" enough sub, but that's subjective. Something like a JL 12w3V4 would be perfect in that size box, plenty of low-end extension (aka it reaches deeper than any number of 10s can) and still plenty of gain (volume).
The two Australian acoustic scientist that basically invented the science of sub-woofer enclosure building would beg to differ with you. The sub-woofer manugacturers have a clue and actually their subwoofers around small enclosures that you find in cars. Look at the Thiel-Small parameters and run them though the calculations or if you can't do that just look at the recommended sizes of enclosures. Most will be happy between 0.5 and 1.0 cubic feet ... and what do you know ... the Zenclosure fits perfectly there!
Most 12" woofers will produce an extra Hertz or two in lower frequency - agreed. But I'll be you that you can't sucessfully detect the difference between 18 and 19 hertz in a double blind test inside a car 10 out of 10 times. I fool people all the time with acoustics. The ear is an amazingly easy organ to fool with and even professionals can't hear a hertz or two let alone someone who listens to their music at +110 dB in their car for more that a few moments or two.
What two woofers will give you over one woofer is +3 dB in amplitude. What a smaller woofer will give you over a bigger one is better transcient response - tigher bass and mid-bass. Speaker efficiency is a great way to save $1000s on a larger amplifier.
Most car stereos don't have the components to let the sub-woofer be a sub-woofer and need some "help" up to 80 or even as high as 120 hertz
where I'd rather see the sub-woofer kept down below 60 hertz. The little 6.5 cones of the mid-bass just start to peter out about 80 hertz and can't move enough air to create enough volume at those lower frequencies.
Bottom line is have a listen with your ears and don't take anyone's advice on the Internet - even mine. Some here have certifications as senior professional broadcast engineers with more that 25 years of accoustical experence yet the single most important thing is what you like with your own ears.
Here's the Qtc calculations I did for a pair of 10" woofers in a Zenclosure box. The closer to 0.707 the more "perfect" the match - I like a bit of help so I was looking for something with a Qtc of around 1.0. The Rockford Fosgate P310 D2, JL 10W6V2, and Infiinty 10VQ were all winners. Edited to add: but none of these speakers would sound really bad, some better, some worse but they've all been designed for a box about the size of the Zenclosure. I've put the slopes down below for you to follow.
Most 12" woofers will produce an extra Hertz or two in lower frequency - agreed. But I'll be you that you can't sucessfully detect the difference between 18 and 19 hertz in a double blind test inside a car 10 out of 10 times. I fool people all the time with acoustics. The ear is an amazingly easy organ to fool with and even professionals can't hear a hertz or two let alone someone who listens to their music at +110 dB in their car for more that a few moments or two.
What two woofers will give you over one woofer is +3 dB in amplitude. What a smaller woofer will give you over a bigger one is better transcient response - tigher bass and mid-bass. Speaker efficiency is a great way to save $1000s on a larger amplifier.
Most car stereos don't have the components to let the sub-woofer be a sub-woofer and need some "help" up to 80 or even as high as 120 hertz
where I'd rather see the sub-woofer kept down below 60 hertz. The little 6.5 cones of the mid-bass just start to peter out about 80 hertz and can't move enough air to create enough volume at those lower frequencies. Bottom line is have a listen with your ears and don't take anyone's advice on the Internet - even mine. Some here have certifications as senior professional broadcast engineers with more that 25 years of accoustical experence yet the single most important thing is what you like with your own ears.
Here's the Qtc calculations I did for a pair of 10" woofers in a Zenclosure box. The closer to 0.707 the more "perfect" the match - I like a bit of help so I was looking for something with a Qtc of around 1.0. The Rockford Fosgate P310 D2, JL 10W6V2, and Infiinty 10VQ were all winners. Edited to add: but none of these speakers would sound really bad, some better, some worse but they've all been designed for a box about the size of the Zenclosure. I've put the slopes down below for you to follow.
Last edited by Paul350Z; Sep 17, 2006 at 08:43 AM.
Originally Posted by Paul350Z
The two Australian acoustic scientist that basically invented the science of sub-woofer enclosure building would beg to differ with you. The sub-woofer manugacturers have a clue and actually their subwoofers around small enclosures that you find in cars. Look at the Thiel-Small parameters and run them though the calculations or if you can't do that just look at the recommended sizes of enclosures. Most will be happy between 0.5 and 1.0 cubic feet ... and what do you know ... the Zenclosure fits perfectly there!
Most 12" woofers will produce an extra Hertz or two in lower frequency - agreed. But I'll be you that you can't sucessfully detect the difference between 18 and 19 hertz in a double blind test inside a car 10 out of 10 times. I fool people all the time with acoustics. The ear is an amazingly easy organ to fool with and even professionals can't hear a hertz or two let alone someone who listens to their music at +110 dB in their car for more that a few moments or two.
What two woofers will give you over one woofer is +3 dB in amplitude. What a smaller woofer will give you over a bigger one is better transcient response - tigher bass and mid-bass. Speaker efficiency is a great way to save $1000s on a larger amplifier.
Most car stereos don't have the components to let the sub-woofer be a sub-woofer and need some "help" up to 80 or even as high as 120 hertz where I'd rather see the sub-woofer kept down below 60 hertz. The little 6.5 cones of the mid-bass just start to peter out about 80 hertz and can't move enough air to create enough volume at those lower frequencies.
Bottom line is have a listen with your ears and don't take anyone's advice on the Internet - even mine. Some here have certifications as senior professional broadcast engineers with more that 25 years of accoustical experence yet the single most important thing is what you like with your own ears.
Here's the Qtc calculations I did for a pair of 10" woofers in a Zenclosure box. The closer to 0.707 the more "perfect" the match - I like a bit of help so I was looking for something with a Qtc of around 1.0. The Rockford Fosgate P310 D2, JL 10W6V2, and Infiinty 10VQ were all winners. I've put the slopes down below for you to follow.
Most 12" woofers will produce an extra Hertz or two in lower frequency - agreed. But I'll be you that you can't sucessfully detect the difference between 18 and 19 hertz in a double blind test inside a car 10 out of 10 times. I fool people all the time with acoustics. The ear is an amazingly easy organ to fool with and even professionals can't hear a hertz or two let alone someone who listens to their music at +110 dB in their car for more that a few moments or two.
What two woofers will give you over one woofer is +3 dB in amplitude. What a smaller woofer will give you over a bigger one is better transcient response - tigher bass and mid-bass. Speaker efficiency is a great way to save $1000s on a larger amplifier.
Most car stereos don't have the components to let the sub-woofer be a sub-woofer and need some "help" up to 80 or even as high as 120 hertz
where I'd rather see the sub-woofer kept down below 60 hertz. The little 6.5 cones of the mid-bass just start to peter out about 80 hertz and can't move enough air to create enough volume at those lower frequencies. Bottom line is have a listen with your ears and don't take anyone's advice on the Internet - even mine. Some here have certifications as senior professional broadcast engineers with more that 25 years of accoustical experence yet the single most important thing is what you like with your own ears.
Here's the Qtc calculations I did for a pair of 10" woofers in a Zenclosure box. The closer to 0.707 the more "perfect" the match - I like a bit of help so I was looking for something with a Qtc of around 1.0. The Rockford Fosgate P310 D2, JL 10W6V2, and Infiinty 10VQ were all winners. I've put the slopes down below for you to follow.
I guess that pretty much sums it up!
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Originally Posted by Paul350Z
What two woofers will give you over one woofer is +3 dB in amplitude. What a smaller woofer will give you over a bigger one is better transcient response - tigher bass and mid-bass. Speaker efficiency is a great way to save $1000s on a larger amplifier.
Here's the Qtc calculations I did for a pair of 10" woofers in a Zenclosure box. The closer to 0.707 the more "perfect" the match - I like a bit of help so I was looking for something with a Qtc of around 1.0. The Rockford Fosgate P310 D2, JL 10W6V2, and Infiinty 10VQ were all winners. Edited to add: but none of these speakers would sound really bad, some better, some worse but they've all been designed for a box about the size of the Zenclosure. I've put the slopes down below for you to follow.
Here's the Qtc calculations I did for a pair of 10" woofers in a Zenclosure box. The closer to 0.707 the more "perfect" the match - I like a bit of help so I was looking for something with a Qtc of around 1.0. The Rockford Fosgate P310 D2, JL 10W6V2, and Infiinty 10VQ were all winners. Edited to add: but none of these speakers would sound really bad, some better, some worse but they've all been designed for a box about the size of the Zenclosure. I've put the slopes down below for you to follow.
Truth is, most people don't like a .707 enclosure ... the majority of listeners enjoy a .9 or higher box (and most of the time that is all they can accomodate space-wise) Don't forget to factor in that a cabin will alter the final system Q nearly as much as you box will. If you were truly looking for critically damped bass, you'd be better off with a .5 alignment or lower.
Originally Posted by Paul350Z
Most car stereos don't have the components to let the sub-woofer be a sub-woofer and need some "help" up to 80 or even as high as 120 hertz where I'd rather see the sub-woofer kept down below 60 hertz. The little 6.5 cones of the mid-bass just start to peter out about 80 hertz and can't move enough air to create enough volume at those lower frequencies.
where I'd rather see the sub-woofer kept down below 60 hertz. The little 6.5 cones of the mid-bass just start to peter out about 80 hertz and can't move enough air to create enough volume at those lower frequencies.
If you front speakers are capable of 60Hz @ 110 dB ... sure go ahead and do it.
Fact of the matter is, most speakers are 100% incapable of doing this (the cost to do this is prohibitive and also the speaker gets to large to fit into a door at this point)
#1 - one 6.5" speaker needs to have about 1" of excursion to do this in any normal sized cabin.
#2 - the enclosure that most speakers are placed in when in a car are usually leaky and about the size of my left nut ... not good for low bass
This "let your subwoofer be a subwoofer" mentality is excellent science and very well practiced in home audio .. where most have ~four to six (ans sometimes more) 8" drivers or more in their main speakers (such is not the case in a car)
Fact of the matter is, most speakers are 100% incapable of doing this (the cost to do this is prohibitive and also the speaker gets to large to fit into a door at this point)
#1 - one 6.5" speaker needs to have about 1" of excursion to do this in any normal sized cabin.
#2 - the enclosure that most speakers are placed in when in a car are usually leaky and about the size of my left nut ... not good for low bass
This "let your subwoofer be a subwoofer" mentality is excellent science and very well practiced in home audio .. where most have ~four to six (ans sometimes more) 8" drivers or more in their main speakers (such is not the case in a car)
Last edited by JimRHIT; Sep 18, 2006 at 09:52 AM.
Originally Posted by JimRHIT
If you front speakers are capable of 60Hz @ 110 dB ... sure go ahead and do it.
This "let your subwoofer be a subwoofer" mentality is excellent science and very well practiced in home audio .. where most have ~four to six (ans sometimes more) 8" drivers or more in their main speakers (such is not the case in a car)
This "let your subwoofer be a subwoofer" mentality is excellent science and very well practiced in home audio .. where most have ~four to six (ans sometimes more) 8" drivers or more in their main speakers (such is not the case in a car)
Originally Posted by JimRHIT
What is the filter setup on the front? You should compliment that with a matching inverse of it to blend them nicely.
Originally Posted by Hot Cu
I am debating between the two Zenclosures for under the strut bar and was wondering what would be better to do, 1-12" sub or 2-10" subs? Which setup do people usually get and what provides the best bass? Also what channel amp did you use and with what wattage (Brand name and types would be very helpful)?
Thanks
Thanks
If you have a -12dB/oct slope at 80Hz LP ... use the same slope and XO point for the HP ... therefore they compliment each other (fully allowing 100% of the material through, grated it is dispersed to two speakers)
Originally Posted by JimRHIT
If you have a -12dB/oct slope at 80Hz LP ... use the same slope and XO point for the HP ... therefore they compliment each other (fully allowing 100% of the material through, grated it is dispersed to two speakers)
