Do I need a cap?
12-07-2006, 08:09 AM
#21
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Originally Posted by Ahsmo
I am not attacking your explination because the use of a cap in a car is not clear cut. I do have a full understanding of capacitors and the RC functions associated with them(charging and discharge functions). Capacitors do no discharge and charge in a linear fashion as you described(steady).
Are audiobahn amplifiers considered good quality to you?
Compare this:
to this:
Which looks better to you? Both have nearly the same rated power.
Are audiobahn amplifiers considered good quality to you?
Compare this:
to this:
Which looks better to you? Both have nearly the same rated power.
The second definitely appears to be of higher quality from looking at it, the first seems to be more dress than anything else (made to look better). And judging by the circuitry I can see the second would probably have a better efficiency (thats my guess, from the pics supplied). This would mean the second amp would draw less when attempting to make the same ratings as the first.
Audiobahn is NOT what I would consider to be high quality by any means but is what I would consider a nice middle of the road (depending on which model line and the purpose you look to achieve from it), but notice I compensated (due to them being less efficient than others) with a 5 farad Alumapro C.A.P. The reason they were chosen was NOT based on sound quality or efficiency, but more for shear purpose and convenience (Audiobahn offered a reasonably priced 6 channel to operate my 5.1 surround, and I chose the sub amp to match). Aesthetics was also a player in the decision, since I built my Z primarily for show. If I was building for SQ or volume, different choices would have been made. My Z is an early 03 and the stereo was installed by me prior to me even bringing the car home. I have NEVER had ANY volt issues with the car and the factory battery is still kicking strong nearly 4 yrs and 60K later. I AM a believer in caps when properly fitted to the set-up an application.
When properly matched to the amplifiers the cap should take the brunt of the jolting abuse and draw more efficiently than an amp surging directly from the battery and putting all the strain on the battery and alt. and therefore giving the alt. the chance to keep up and not strain itself.
As mentioned in another post a dry cell or gel battery would also help this.
Upgrading, your alt. is definitely an alternative, but quite pricey (roughly $600-$800) from Ohio Generator. We have had to do this, but this was a pretty extreme case where we installed 3 JL W7's in the back of a Tahoe, and had multiple amplifiers to power those and the mids and highs. For this we use extra batteries and installed an upgraded alt. Why? because it was needed.
Why would you upgrade your alt. if you can reduce the strain through other means and methods?
Some people believe in caps, some don't. I just based my beliefs on years of experience with multiple types of aftermarket stereo set-ups. I am not the gospel, but offered my findings and experience to those who requested input.
I don't think an alt. upgrade, in these cases, is by any means practical for their set-ups. A cap would solve their issue. Whether some think it's a "band-aid" of sorts is a matter of opinion.
If you would like to list what you have I can also give my input on something that may be able to solve your problem as well. But making blanket statements that a cap is useless, is just simply not true. Many variables go into what may or may not be needed for different set-ups.
Last edited by Driven1; 12-07-2006 at 08:13 AM.
12-07-2006, 08:11 AM
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Originally Posted by StreetOC192
The factory speaker wires should be sufficient. Do yourself a favor when you splice into them and solder and shrink tube them.
12-07-2006, 09:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Driven1
Why would you upgrade your alt. if you can reduce the strain through other means and methods?
I know how caps, batteries, alternators work (not saying you don't, you have proven that you have an understanding). I have been installing car audio systems since I was 16, and I am now 32. I have worked professionally for a shop, but now I install recreationally for friends and family because I have a career that takes up most of my time.
I can respect your opinions, and would never try to change someone elses mind about anything if it's what they believe. So the following is not to try to sway you, but rather to help entertain the question posed by the OP.
The alternator produces energy. The battery stores the energy. The power wire for an amplifier is connected to the + terminal of the battery along with the alternator. The amplifier will feed off of the current coming from the alternator until it has a high draw situation in which case it will pull from the battery. A standard battery does not have an instantaneous discharge capability. This is when headlights might dim, or the bass may not hit as hard as it should.
Adding a cap will patch the problem by storing energy just like a battery, but is able to discharge instantly to give the amplifier the power it needs. There is STILL a strain on the alternator to refuel the cap after the high draw is over, but before the next draw hits. A cap will, however, keep your lights from dimming if it is properly sized. A 1 farad cap will run about $75 for a GOOD one (read: not garbage). I personally don't feel this is the best money spent in car audio....
Many times the wiring from the alternator to the battery as well as the grounding wires can be upgraded and solve the problem by allowing current to flow more efficiently. i.e. "the big 3" and upgrading the wire from the alternator to the battery will fix the problem for the average modest system for around $50 in wire, connectors, and new battery terminals.
The next step would be to get a dry cell or gel cell battery which has higher discharge rates than the standard batteries. An Exide Orbital will run you about $120. This will give you a deep cycle battery with higher discharge rates (not as fast as a cap, but faster than a standard battery). This will also help out your entire car's electrical system, not just your stereo.
If all else fails, a HO alternator would be the final piece to be replaced, for a price........as stated earlier, they aren't cheap.
I hope this helps the OP and anyone else make the choice they feel is right. If a cap is the way you want to go? that's fine, but hopefully this helps you understand WHY you would use a cap (other than the "BLING" factor).
Last edited by StreetOC192; 12-07-2006 at 09:21 AM.
12-07-2006, 09:23 AM
#24
Originally Posted by StreetOC192
The factory speaker wires should be sufficient. Do yourself a favor when you splice into them and solder and shrink tube them.
Just wondering if there's anything else I'll need...
How about sound deadening in the doors? Does it make that big a difference?
Oh, and when tuning the system, should I use the crossover in the headunit or the amp? Where should I cut the signal off from the F&R speakers to send to the sub?
12-07-2006, 09:47 AM
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Originally Posted by StreetOC192
I agree with you that a HO alternator is not needed in the case of the OP.
I know how caps, batteries, alternators work (not saying you don't, you have proven that you have an understanding). I have been installing car audio systems since I was 16, and I am now 32. I have worked professionally for a shop, but now I install recreationally for friends and family because I have a career that takes up most of my time.
I can respect your opinions, and would never try to change someone elses mind about anything if it's what they believe. So the following is not to try to sway you, but rather to help entertain the question posed by the OP.
The alternator produces energy. The battery stores the energy. The power wire for an amplifier is connected to the + terminal of the battery along with the alternator. The amplifier will feed off of the current coming from the alternator until it has a high draw situation in which case it will pull from the battery. A standard battery does not have an instantaneous discharge capability. This is when headlights might dim, or the bass may not hit as hard as it should.
Adding a cap will patch the problem by storing energy just like a battery, but is able to discharge instantly to give the amplifier the power it needs. There is STILL a strain on the alternator to refuel the cap after the high draw is over, but before the next draw hits. A cap will, however, keep your lights from dimming if it is properly sized. A 1 farad cap will run about $75 for a GOOD one (read: not garbage). I personally don't feel this is the best money spent in car audio....
Many times the wiring from the alternator to the battery as well as the grounding wires can be upgraded and solve the problem by allowing current to flow more efficiently. i.e. "the big 3" and upgrading the wire from the alternator to the battery will fix the problem for the average modest system for around $50 in wire, connectors, and new battery terminals.
The next step would be to get a dry cell or gel cell battery which has higher discharge rates than the standard batteries. An Exide Orbital will run you about $120. This will give you a deep cycle battery with higher discharge rates (not as fast as a cap, but faster than a standard battery). This will also help out your entire car's electrical system, not just your stereo.
If all else fails, a HO alternator would be the final piece to be replaced, for a price........as stated earlier, they aren't cheap.
I hope this helps the OP and anyone else make the choice they feel is right. If a cap is the way you want to go? that's fine, but hopefully this helps you understand WHY you would use a cap (other than the "BLING" factor).
I know how caps, batteries, alternators work (not saying you don't, you have proven that you have an understanding). I have been installing car audio systems since I was 16, and I am now 32. I have worked professionally for a shop, but now I install recreationally for friends and family because I have a career that takes up most of my time.
I can respect your opinions, and would never try to change someone elses mind about anything if it's what they believe. So the following is not to try to sway you, but rather to help entertain the question posed by the OP.
The alternator produces energy. The battery stores the energy. The power wire for an amplifier is connected to the + terminal of the battery along with the alternator. The amplifier will feed off of the current coming from the alternator until it has a high draw situation in which case it will pull from the battery. A standard battery does not have an instantaneous discharge capability. This is when headlights might dim, or the bass may not hit as hard as it should.
Adding a cap will patch the problem by storing energy just like a battery, but is able to discharge instantly to give the amplifier the power it needs. There is STILL a strain on the alternator to refuel the cap after the high draw is over, but before the next draw hits. A cap will, however, keep your lights from dimming if it is properly sized. A 1 farad cap will run about $75 for a GOOD one (read: not garbage). I personally don't feel this is the best money spent in car audio....
Many times the wiring from the alternator to the battery as well as the grounding wires can be upgraded and solve the problem by allowing current to flow more efficiently. i.e. "the big 3" and upgrading the wire from the alternator to the battery will fix the problem for the average modest system for around $50 in wire, connectors, and new battery terminals.
The next step would be to get a dry cell or gel cell battery which has higher discharge rates than the standard batteries. An Exide Orbital will run you about $120. This will give you a deep cycle battery with higher discharge rates (not as fast as a cap, but faster than a standard battery). This will also help out your entire car's electrical system, not just your stereo.
If all else fails, a HO alternator would be the final piece to be replaced, for a price........as stated earlier, they aren't cheap.
I hope this helps the OP and anyone else make the choice they feel is right. If a cap is the way you want to go? that's fine, but hopefully this helps you understand WHY you would use a cap (other than the "BLING" factor).
I've never done the alternator to battery wiring upgrade, but I will definitely take this into consideration and will most likely try it, since it makes logical sense. I've just never thought about doing that. Guess you learn something new everyday. At the very least, I think we gave these guys enough infomation to make the logical decision for their applications.
12-07-2006, 09:48 AM
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Originally Posted by MustGoFastR
Cool; that'll make the job a little easier. I'll just tap in behind the headunit where the wires are clearly identified (maybe tap closer to the rear speakers if I can find them, since the amp will be back there). I always solder and heat shrink.
Just wondering if there's anything else I'll need...
How about sound deadening in the doors? Does it make that big a difference?
Oh, and when tuning the system, should I use the crossover in the headunit or the amp? Where should I cut the signal off from the F&R speakers to send to the sub?
Just wondering if there's anything else I'll need...
How about sound deadening in the doors? Does it make that big a difference?
Oh, and when tuning the system, should I use the crossover in the headunit or the amp? Where should I cut the signal off from the F&R speakers to send to the sub?
cut off points depend on the speakers used. a good starting point is around 80Hz. go from there to get the best blend from your speakers to the sub.
12-07-2006, 09:52 AM
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Originally Posted by MustGoFastR
Cool; that'll make the job a little easier. I'll just tap in behind the headunit where the wires are clearly identified (maybe tap closer to the rear speakers if I can find them, since the amp will be back there). I always solder and heat shrink.
Just wondering if there's anything else I'll need...
How about sound deadening in the doors? Does it make that big a difference?
Oh, and when tuning the system, should I use the crossover in the headunit or the amp? Where should I cut the signal off from the F&R speakers to send to the sub?
Just wondering if there's anything else I'll need...
How about sound deadening in the doors? Does it make that big a difference?
Oh, and when tuning the system, should I use the crossover in the headunit or the amp? Where should I cut the signal off from the F&R speakers to send to the sub?
I like to tune a stereo from the amps first (achieving the best sound possible without tuning the radio) and leaving the radio settings at factory settings or close there to (some fine tuning will most likely be needed, but it should be fairly minor). This allows you tune on the fly and adjust different settings for different types of music (and in many cases drastically improve your sound quality).
And +1 on the 80Htz recommended start point.
And remember, when your tuning for sound, it should ALWAYS be centered around the driver.
Last edited by Driven1; 12-07-2006 at 09:57 AM.
12-07-2006, 09:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Driven1
Im in the same situation as you. I have another career, but have quite a few years experience as well. You have very valid points and opinions, none of which I can dispute through fact and nearly all I agree with. I've never done the alternator to battery wiring upgrade, but I will definitely take this into consideration and will most likely try it, since it makes logical sense. I've just never thought about doing that. Guess you learn something new everyday. At the very least, I think we gave these guys enough infomation to make the logical decision for their applications.
I've never done the alternator to battery wiring upgrade, but I will definitely take this into consideration and will most likely try it, since it makes logical sense. I've just never thought about doing that. Guess you learn something new everyday. At the very least, I think we gave these guys enough infomation to make the logical decision for their applications.And if you do the wire upgrade from the alternator to the battery, make sure you have an inline fuse or a fusable link to protect everything. Don't need anything going 'boom'.
Last edited by StreetOC192; 12-07-2006 at 10:04 AM.
12-07-2006, 11:27 AM
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Originally Posted by StreetOC192
Job well done. I hope you know I wasn't arguing with you nor anyone else. You have valid points yourself. Caps do serve a purpose or they wouldn't be made and sold.
And if you do the wire upgrade from the alternator to the battery, make sure you have an inline fuse or a fusable link to protect everything. Don't need anything going 'boom'.
And if you do the wire upgrade from the alternator to the battery, make sure you have an inline fuse or a fusable link to protect everything. Don't need anything going 'boom'.
12-07-2006, 12:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Driven1
The second definitely appears to be of higher quality from looking at it, the first seems to be more dress than anything else (made to look better). And judging by the circuitry I can see the second would probably have a better efficiency (thats my guess, from the pics supplied). This would mean the second amp would draw less when attempting to make the same ratings as the first.
Audiobahn is NOT what I would consider to be high quality by any means but is what I would consider a nice middle of the road (depending on which model line and the purpose you look to achieve from it), but notice I compensated (due to them being less efficient than others) with a 5 farad Alumapro C.A.P. The reason they were chosen was NOT based on sound quality or efficiency, but more for shear purpose and convenience (Audiobahn offered a reasonably priced 6 channel to operate my 5.1 surround, and I chose the sub amp to match). Aesthetics was also a player in the decision, since I built my Z primarily for show. If I was building for SQ or volume, different choices would have been made. My Z is an early 03 and the stereo was installed by me prior to me even bringing the car home. I have NEVER had ANY volt issues with the car and the factory battery is still kicking strong nearly 4 yrs and 60K later. I AM a believer in caps when properly fitted to the set-up an application.
When properly matched to the amplifiers the cap should take the brunt of the jolting abuse and draw more efficiently than an amp surging directly from the battery and putting all the strain on the battery and alt. and therefore giving the alt. the chance to keep up and not strain itself.
As mentioned in another post a dry cell or gel battery would also help this.
Upgrading, your alt. is definitely an alternative, but quite pricey (roughly $600-$800) from Ohio Generator. We have had to do this, but this was a pretty extreme case where we installed 3 JL W7's in the back of a Tahoe, and had multiple amplifiers to power those and the mids and highs. For this we use extra batteries and installed an upgraded alt. Why? because it was needed.
Why would you upgrade your alt. if you can reduce the strain through other means and methods?
Some people believe in caps, some don't. I just based my beliefs on years of experience with multiple types of aftermarket stereo set-ups. I am not the gospel, but offered my findings and experience to those who requested input.
I don't think an alt. upgrade, in these cases, is by any means practical for their set-ups. A cap would solve their issue. Whether some think it's a "band-aid" of sorts is a matter of opinion.
If you would like to list what you have I can also give my input on something that may be able to solve your problem as well. But making blanket statements that a cap is useless, is just simply not true. Many variables go into what may or may not be needed for different set-ups.
Audiobahn is NOT what I would consider to be high quality by any means but is what I would consider a nice middle of the road (depending on which model line and the purpose you look to achieve from it), but notice I compensated (due to them being less efficient than others) with a 5 farad Alumapro C.A.P. The reason they were chosen was NOT based on sound quality or efficiency, but more for shear purpose and convenience (Audiobahn offered a reasonably priced 6 channel to operate my 5.1 surround, and I chose the sub amp to match). Aesthetics was also a player in the decision, since I built my Z primarily for show. If I was building for SQ or volume, different choices would have been made. My Z is an early 03 and the stereo was installed by me prior to me even bringing the car home. I have NEVER had ANY volt issues with the car and the factory battery is still kicking strong nearly 4 yrs and 60K later. I AM a believer in caps when properly fitted to the set-up an application.
When properly matched to the amplifiers the cap should take the brunt of the jolting abuse and draw more efficiently than an amp surging directly from the battery and putting all the strain on the battery and alt. and therefore giving the alt. the chance to keep up and not strain itself.
As mentioned in another post a dry cell or gel battery would also help this.
Upgrading, your alt. is definitely an alternative, but quite pricey (roughly $600-$800) from Ohio Generator. We have had to do this, but this was a pretty extreme case where we installed 3 JL W7's in the back of a Tahoe, and had multiple amplifiers to power those and the mids and highs. For this we use extra batteries and installed an upgraded alt. Why? because it was needed.
Why would you upgrade your alt. if you can reduce the strain through other means and methods?
Some people believe in caps, some don't. I just based my beliefs on years of experience with multiple types of aftermarket stereo set-ups. I am not the gospel, but offered my findings and experience to those who requested input.
I don't think an alt. upgrade, in these cases, is by any means practical for their set-ups. A cap would solve their issue. Whether some think it's a "band-aid" of sorts is a matter of opinion.
If you would like to list what you have I can also give my input on something that may be able to solve your problem as well. But making blanket statements that a cap is useless, is just simply not true. Many variables go into what may or may not be needed for different set-ups.
12-07-2006, 12:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Ahsmo
The first amp is an audiobahn 100 x 2 and the second is a Phoenix Gold tantrum 125x2. Like you said, the audiobahn was built for show. The PG amp was built to produce 125 clean watts.
And like I said, I compensated for it with the C.A.P. I used, and yet I have no problems. Hmmmmmm, makes me think.
For some reason those appear to be quite a few years old?
Last edited by Driven1; 12-07-2006 at 12:36 PM.
12-07-2006, 01:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Driven1
So I was right. Thanks for clarifying that for me.
And like I said, I compensated for it with the C.A.P. I used, and yet I have no problems. Hmmmmmm, makes me think.
For some reason those appear to be quite a few years old?
And like I said, I compensated for it with the C.A.P. I used, and yet I have no problems. Hmmmmmm, makes me think.
For some reason those appear to be quite a few years old?
12-07-2006, 02:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Ahsmo
The PG amp has been around for a while. Not sure on the audiobahn. They all look about like that IMO.
And it's definitely that x1200.1 that's hurting your power.
Really nice amp though.
Last edited by Driven1; 12-07-2006 at 02:24 PM.
12-07-2006, 04:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Driven1
Either way, nearly all the PG stuff is really nice, old or new. I think there were only a handful (if that) of their lines that weren't up to their standards IMO.
And it's definitely that x1200.1 that's hurting your power. Really nice amp though.
And it's definitely that x1200.1 that's hurting your power.
Really nice amp though.I run the 1200.1 with the gains hardly turned up at all. I run about 600 watts to the subs, maybe. I tuned the system for sound quality with plenty of head room.
12-08-2006, 06:26 AM
#35
Ok, one more question for me; not topic related, but everyone is answering my system questions here...
Where is a good place to mount the component crossover for the door speakers? Can it be mounted behind the door panel ok? The instructions say not to mount them in the doors due to risk of moisture, but it's not like it gets soaked behind the interior door panel, right? Is there even room?
Where is a good place to mount the component crossover for the door speakers? Can it be mounted behind the door panel ok? The instructions say not to mount them in the doors due to risk of moisture, but it's not like it gets soaked behind the interior door panel, right? Is there even room?
12-08-2006, 01:58 PM
#36
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it'll fit behind the door panel as long as it's not too big...I just installed components -->
https://my350z.com/forum/audio-and-video/234017-my-new-system-newb-installed.html
https://my350z.com/forum/audio-and-video/234017-my-new-system-newb-installed.html
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