GalvatronType_R

iTrader: (5)

A few months ago, I posted a thread re: whether aftermarket speakers are a noticeable improvement over stock sans amplifier and with a aftermarket navigation HU (in my case, the JVC Arsenal KW NT1 driving the non-Bose stock Clarion speakers). I ended up ordering the Polk Audio DB651 coaxials for the rear and the DB6501 components for the front.

After receiving the Polks, I read up on a strange French company named Focal which makes high end home and auto speakers. After some consultation, I shipped back the unopened Polks and ordered the Focal 165CA1 Access coaxials for the rear and the 165 A1 components for the front (again, taking advantage of amazing amazon.com deals).

So mobile audio experts, is Focal really as great as people say? Again, I will run the speakers via the JVC's internal amp (20 watts RMS x 4 ch. at 4 ohms) and I have no desire to run an external amp (they add 10-12 unnecessary pounds to the car). Is Focal all that they're cracked up to be?

Spike100

Focals are great. I've installed various speakers, and I rate Focals as among the best.

But of course, that's the experience of one person with a specific preference.

I'll add this statement: No one is ever disappointed with Focals.
_______________________
Edit: You should use an external amp with your Focals.

--Spike

rtiid22

I honestly believe you're not going to be impressed without an external amplifier that puts out at least 50watts RMS per channel..

06g35meister

iTrader: (3)

they wont mechanically even work well with 20W/channel... get a 5 channel amp and call it done, they are like 10 lbs...

GalvatronType_R

iTrader: (5)

I'll seriously consider a four channel external amp after installing the Focals, breaking them in, and seeing if there is room for improvement. Again, I do not want to add weight to the Nismo and the 10-12 pounds that an amp, wiring, and maybe a new power source would add is not desirable.

Also, before anyone asks, I have NO DESIRE for a sub. Besides the fact that they're obnoxious, they can add easily 50 lbs. to the car (unacceptable).

Z1 Performance

iTrader: (564)

focal in general makes very nice speakers. So do tons of other companies though

as for those specific ones though, I couldn't say, particularly if mated to that head unit (again, no ideas there as I've never used the HU as my power supply unless it was a bone stock car).

I do agree with the above though, that without an amp, regardless of what speaker you choose, I'd be prepared to be underwhelmed

davidc81

iTrader: (23)

focals are great speakers. i used to have a set of their polykelvar line and liked them very much. without an amp, you wont notice much of a difference from stock. if anything, it'll sound worse since the stock speakers are probably more efficient. you really need an amp for those speakers for them to sound their best.

sdZ33

iTrader: (39)

10-12 pounds?... Seriously???... Focal makes great speakers, but whats the point of spending so much money on Focals if you aren't going to use them to their full potential???... You might as well get at least a small 2 channel and run the fronts off of it at least...

lemmiwinkz

is focal as good as everyone says? Focal has been making great car speakers and even better home audio speakers for a while now and they do a great amount of engineering and work on their drivers to make them among some of the best in the world.

as far as amps go, i would run a nicer amp than the jvc head unit you have now. the power output is not the only thing you should be looking at and i don't think it is even the most important thing. with quality amps come better sound quality and amps can create a certain amount of distortion in themselves which would contradict the point of buying nice speakers. i almost think that an amp is as important if not more than the speaker selection in that sense, especially since you chose a decent pair of speakers.

as far as subs go, i also think you could run a smaller sub, like an 8", without adding a serious amount of weight. it would give you the lower frequencies that the 6.5's will not give you and all without giving you that annoying loud bass that i think you associate with subs. done right a sub can round out the frequency range and give you a better listening experience.

GalvatronType_R

iTrader: (5)

Okay, you guys have convinced me. Again, once the Focals are installed and broken in, I will judge to see if there is room for improvement or if I'm satisfied with the status quo. If I hear distortion or muddy mids and lows at reasonable volumes, I'll bite the bullet and buy a four channel amp and eat the weight gain.

But I'm putting my foot down on this: NO SUB FOR ME.

plumpzz

iTrader: (10)

Does anyone in the forums run just front components and no sub? How does that sound? Is it enough bass?

davidc81

iTrader: (23)

front comps play down to about 80hz if properly installed.

Z1 Performance

iTrader: (564)

true, but to get any sort of feeling out them that low, it would ideally take a 3 way setup, and you would need some pretty hefty power...at which point, why not just fit a small sub

Spike100

I think your statement confirms that it’s all about personal preference. That might be the state (acuity) of your hearing, the type of music you prefer, your speaker installation, etc. Paul350Z has made this point many times, and I agree with him.

I really like Focals. They suit me perfectly. The only downside is they are expen$ive.

But, I’m old and have spent many hours shooting inside indoor ranges and on trap and skeet fields during my life. In the 1950’s, cotton or earplugs was considered adequate. Now everyone uses full ear coverage (ear muffs) when exposed to loud noises. I doubt my hearing is anywhere near what a 19 year-old person has.

Who knows? Maybe Focals are very good for old guys with moderate hearing damage? Or maybe Focals suit the broad range of listeners?

The one thing I can say for certain is that the OEM speakers in the Z (Clarion or the Bose "upgrade") are cheap, sound awful, and beg for replacement. Some Z buyers use the car for the track and could care less about sound quality, but owners who listen to the car's radio need to replace the OEM speakers ASAP.

--Spike

sdZ33

iTrader: (39)

^^^

amen!

16psibrick

iTrader: (10)

a lot of good points have been made here, specifically about how not having an amp will definetly hurt your performance.

while i dislike the way focals sound as some have mentioned and they area bit overpriced for their performance, they are among the upper echelon of spekaer manufactures out there.

however, we are talking about their access line coaxials here, their entry level, stock replacements.

i have installed quite a few of these, and they really arent anything special, are they better than the polks? slightly, but these arent meant to be really high end speakers.

just imagine if FIAT decided to slap a "ferrari" sticker on a Fiat Panda, a car designed to compete wtih the honda fit and nissan versa. it would carry the name of a hgih end brand, but still be just a cheap econobox

also remember the reasons why the stock system sounds so poor are:

1. poor HU sending a relatively unclean and weak signal source

2. crappy amp spitting out unclean power and full range signal at speakers

3. low quality speakers.

i would say, chief among those is reason number 2. you have replaced the HU, wchih s good, but now you have do nothing to change number 2, the JVC, or any headunit for that matter, is still outputing really weak and distorted power (regardless of what the rating number on the HU says). also, you may not be able to control the frequency range of the output. so in a sense, you are back to square one.

but again, the focals you got are sorta designed for this, so i dont really suggest amping them either. but just keep your expectations realistic about the sound...thats all

b

TomCat0197

I can understand not wanting a sub or additional weight from an amplifier. Once you get an amp, then you need the wiring kit, and maybe a capacitor, adding more weight. There is an alternative. Alpine offers the KTP-445 Power Pack. It's an add on amplifier that fits behind the radio in the dash. It plugs directly into the back of the radio and inceases head unit output to 45 x 4. At 120 bucks, I'd give it a try, before going all out with a component amplifier. The caveat is it only works with Alpine head units, so your JVC would need to be replaced. I've used various stereos throughou the years, JVC, Pioneer, Kenwood, Alpine, Eclipse, Sony, and Alpine has made some amazing Head Units. The sound tuning built-in to most mid range models combined with the crossovers on your focals will bring your music to life.

Just though I'd offer that up as an option.

GalvatronType_R

iTrader: (5)

Thanks for the replies. A few thoughts:

-My plan is to install the Focals, break them in, and judge to see whether an amp will really improve the sound and if I can live with the weight gain

-I am not a ruthless audiophile; all I require is that my music plays loud and distortion free at reasonable volumes with decent mids and bass; I really don't care about how my music sounds outside of my car nor if it plays loud enough and distortion free enough for the enjoyment of those in their cars around me

-As previously stated: NO SUBWOOFER FOR ME; not only are they obnoxious but they add an unacceptable amount of weight for some unnecessary and annoying thumping

-The differences between a manufacturer's own line of speakers is really marketing snake oil BS, IMO; I have heard an A/B comparison of Alpine's Type-S and Type-X speakers driven by the same HU and amp and I heard no discernible difference between them, especially not to justify the price increase; sure, with higher level speakers you may get better build quality but this does not necessarily guarantee better performance

Once the Focals arrive and are installed, I will post a brutally honest follow up of impressions and whether I need an amp.

Z1 Performance

iTrader: (564)

In all honestly, it sounds like you have alot of preconceived notions of what a well planned system can be, and what all is required to get it to that level. When you get to experience a setup that is properly done, or even approaches properly done, you know it. In a Z, they all have a very similar tonal quality to them (IMHO), and if you're familiar with what is possible inside these cars, you start to pick up on what generall sounds good and what doesn't. For example, I've never heard any of Bing's setups but if I did, I'd have a pretty good idea of what to expect before ever having him play a track. Perhaps your opinions are based on your own experience, or friends systems? It's easy to have these types of experiences color your opinions, but like I said, when you hear a setup that is properly executed in these cars, it's and eye (ear) opening experience. Some very cool and sometimes surprising things can be achieved in this car.

A sub in an SQ oriented setup need not be intrusive. In an SQ setup, intrusive is the polar opposite of your goals. It's purpose is to simply augment the recording so it sounds as close to what the artist/mixer/producer intended. Just in the same way that mids and highs should be faithfully reproduced. Does it add weight? Some. Does it have to add a ton of weight? Absolutely not - and it adds it where a Z needs it...in the back (and in particular, at or near the rear axle point).

With just a headunit powering things and replacement level speakers, you should get a bit of an improvement in your mid and highs vs a stock setup, though it won't be anywhere near what would be possible with a better set of speakers and a proper amp/crossover setup. Even then, you'll still lack the bottom end that a well planned sub brings to the table. Ultimately it comes down to what your goals are, which you defined, and what your budget is to meet those goals. I will say this - and just take it for what it is (it's not a knock by any means): if you put minimal effort in, you're going to get minimal results out. This does not mean you can't build an excellent sounding setup on a strict budget - you absolutely can. It also does not mean you need tons of equipment. You don't. But if you're expecting your system to be totally transformed via just a self powered headunit and some mediocre drop in replacement speakers, it's not going to be (IMHO). Again, as long as your expectations match reality, you should be reasonably pleased with it, and that is what matters.

As far as the differences between products within given lines, you have to keep something in mind. Listening to them on a soundwall and listening to them in the environment of a car are 2 completely different things. There are alot of factors that go into what makes a speaker sound the way it does - and many of these factors have nothing to do with the speaker itself. What's more, it very often can take a certain type of setup to reveal the differences between 2 speakers, even 2 speakers made by the same manufacturer.

GalvatronType_R

iTrader: (5)

<----*waves white flag*

Okay, you guys win. I ordered an amp (MB Quart Discus 450: 4 channels x 50 watts RMS 4 ohms) and it's going into the Nismo along with the Focals (installation will happen as soon as this ridiculous snow starts to melt). If I lose time on track days because of the extra weight, you guys owe me.

Just out of curiosity, where do you guys have your amp? I'm thinking of putting it in the glove box behind the passenger seat or possibly under the passenger seat (although drilling into the floor makes me nervous) but definitely not anywhere in the hatch (I want it out of sight).

Also, to reiterate, I refuse to get a sub. They're heavy and obnoxious.