amolaver

iTrader: (1)

The plusses and minuses have been debated ad nauseum. The short version? 1) Harness bars locate a harness. They usually are less obtrusive in the cabin than a cage. They provide no or minimal additional structural strength (that is generally not part of their design). 2) A cage intends to protect the occupants of deformation of the passenger cabin and locate a harness. Roll bar padding, properly secured, will provide the same insulation from the bar as the headliner does from metallic structures underneath. They, generally speaking, are more visibly obtrusive, which may be a minus to many z owners.

Of course there are no references to harness bars in NASA's racing regs. No one would be allowed anywhere near any wheel-to-wheel racing without a full cage. And I disagree strongly that the spec doesn't have relevance to a harness bar. One of the key features of a full cage is to maintain the harnesses position in an incident. In order to do that, it needs to be pretty dang strong. Since that load would be the same to a harness bar or cage, I'd say using those specs would be a pretty good idea.

Doesn't sound like you were so afraid of self-tech that you didn't go out on track. Most events I attend are not self-tech, but some are. I know I certainly have no problem finding the chief steward and pointing out something I don't think belongs on track, or heaven forbid, sitting out a session until I'm comfortable with how things are being done. Its called responsibility.

With regard to the BCR bar, only after doing some research after going back and forth with EnthuZ did I realize that HE IS BCR. EnthuZ - you have some serious ethical issues giving people advice on this topic without qualifying your relationship. Second, as stijed has stated, I would not trust that bar to restrain me in the event of a serious incident. The roughly pencil-diameter aluminum struts are unlikely to endure any serious load. What is the strength of those structures in tension? I'm not sure what they are backed with under the unibody, but they might also pull through. Regarding the 'PCA approval', as I discovered trying to determine what exactly this 'selling point' meant, all it relates to (in this case) is the small loops welded under the main bar to prevent the harnesses from spreading (and falling off your shoulders). In stijed's case, his seats perform this function, and in his case, would be allowed in your hallowed PCA events (if they allow non-P cars).

As for whoever said the STi is a tub, given equal drivers and stock cars, an STi will stomp a Z on a racetrack. I should know - I've driven both of them (on a track). Its close, but at VIR full, ~2 seconds a lap is the margin. Don't get me wrong - I love the Z, and think it has more potential than the STi, but out of the box, the STi is a kick *** car. While stijed's harness bar might not be the most attactive thing in the world (and obviously compromises the utility of the car although not any worse than a stock Z), Piper's workmanship is without peer. stijed - could you take some 'macro' pictures (real, real closeup) to the welds and post them? no, a passenger isn't going to safely ride back there, but then again, it sure looks like its going to stay in place and hold a harness if the big bad happens. and i'm comfortable saying i have no business relationship with piper at all other than as a satisfied customer, and someone who talks to many specmiata folks, many of whom have the same impression of mitch as i do. a stand up guy who delivers a kick butt product.

hey enthuz - why haven't you put a disclaimer on your posts regarding your business relationship with BCR? looks like dirty pool to me.

ahm

stijed

Your tubing diameter is only half an inch shy of the recommended diameter...

Well said, and exactly why my tubing diameter and wall thickness is what NASA recommends for cages (and also why you won't find any aluminum parts on my harness bar)..

Glad I'm not the only one here who appreciates Mitch Piper's work, I'll take some ultra mega close-up shots of his perfect welds when i get a chance..

btw Enthuz you never responded to this part..

I assume you think people should just take your word for it that your mysterious friend is reknowned in the Grand Am racing series for his quality fabrication..

zillinois

iTrader: (6)

Robert Nashvill - As you can see, this is a very touchy subject for people. But to do a roll cage right means destroying your interior and welding in a cage. That is not something many people are likely to do. Do not waste your time with bolts ins or incomplete solutions like what are out on the market right now.

Since there are presently no complete weld in solutions, a custom cage is the way to go. Unfortunately, custom cages can cost several thousand dollars. Also, something that not many people are likely to do. That leaves just the harness bar for weekend warriors.

You have to make up your own mind about what you are comfortable with. Its your neck. If you feel comfortable with the risks of a harness bar then go for it. Just know that the harness bar may increase the risk of injury in a roll over.

I personally have the BCR harness bar and I'm very happy with it. I'm sure the other guys are happy with their stuff too. I also have a friend who tracks regularly with the Avalon bar and he is very happy with it as well. I have even seen the CG lock at HPDE's and have considered it myself. It looks pretty slick for the money. Last year at a local autocross event, the class I ended up in required a harness bar. I didn't have one, so they kind of slid me in a class that didn't require one. Shortly after that event, I bought one. And have been very happy with the results. I presently use it for HPDE's.

I'm sure we could argue the merits of one over the other forever, but its really about knowing the risks and what you're comfortable with. Unfortunately, almost every thread ends with war.

zillinois

iTrader: (6)

Well, since you say it, it must be so. Good enough for me! If you don't see the problem with your comparison, then nothing more can be said. Boy, I'm in a mood today!!

stijed

Wow, since we've digressed to bench racing the only proper thing to do is quote some #s (from Car & Driver)..


0-60
350Z - 5.5
STi - 4.6

1/4 mi
350Z - 14.3
STi - 13.2

braking 70mph - 0
350Z - 174ft
STi - 166ft

road handling
350Z - .88g
STi - .9g
----

And seriously if you're comparing the cars totally stock the OEM tires alone could make/break 10 seconds off of a laptime.. especially considering the OEM STi tire (Bridgestone 070) is ~equivilent to an Azeni Sport and the 350's OEM 040 is ~equivilent to an Eagle RSA (if you've had a car equipped w/ them from the factory you understand)..

SinCity350Z

iTrader: (19)

Yeah but the STI is ugly lol. J/K, but seriously.

stijed

I wouldn't say ugly, but it's got nothing on the sexy lines of the Z...

EnthuZ

iTrader: (2)

Would someone please explain to me why a non 350Z owner would spend time posting here?

My spelling is not very good, but TROLL rings a bell.

Redline350Z

I'd like to have sex with him. In his left ear.

stijed

I'm not trying to troll, flame, etc.. I'm actually a pretty big Z fan (my father has owned every generation except the last 300 model), and if it wasn't for the terrible rear visability in the 350 and the fact that it wouldn't do so well in the New England winters I probably would have bought one..

I started lurking this board because it has (in general) a much more active motorsports forum then the subaru board I frequent (too many cone-dodgers, not enough track ******), sorry for intruding..

...Oh wait, I'm a troll because you won't respond to legitimate questions about your product..

stijed

oh behave baby

zillinois

iTrader: (6)

No you're a troll, because you slammed a product without ever seeing or trying it. You stepped all over this thread trashing a product and saying how great you're stuff is. Which btw would not fit in a Z without reducing seat travel greatly. No one is going to respond to you seriously because you are coming off like an idiot whether you think so or not. Don't like the guys harness bar say so and move on. Why don't you just take god's .91G (dream on) chariot and move on while your at it.

EnthuZ

iTrader: (2)

LOL....and I do mean LOL!


Thanks for posting the most intelligent response yet!

EnthuZ

iTrader: (2)

After hearing the criticism, I feel it’s necessary to explain the function of the two aluminum support bars. A better term is anti-rotation stabilizers. I’ll use the term stay for simplicity. The stay's sole purpose is to prevent any rotation of the harness bar.

The plates at the end of the harness bar are angled in towards the top which
will hold the bar in place upon impact as the “B” pillar would have to deform inwards and or outwards with any bar rotation. The stays simply prevent this deformation from happening as the bar will transfer almost all of an impact load to the “B” pillar mount where the OEM shoulder strap attaches.

The chosen child seat retention strap mount is sufficient to hold a child
seat in place during an impact, so they are more than strong enough to prevent the bar from rotating. As to the stays looking like toothpicks, they are WAY oversize for this application. The fabricator wanted to simplify them with plain angle iron. I feel the aluminum bars look a lot better, and I felt it better to err on the safe side.

As to the diameter of the harness bar being small, well, this is the 1st
time anyone has disapproved of it. It meets & exceeds any and all published requirements for a harness bar. I’ll repeat that it has been approved for HPDEs. If you’re uncomfortable with it, so be it.


In regards to the fabricator being qualified, I will maintain my word to him that he remains anonymous. There are only two other major harness bar
manufacturers that I am aware of, and do you really think they have a
fabricator welding them? A certified welder need not be a fabricator. I
will leak this: one of last years Grand Am 350Z drivers has driven a Grand
Am Camero built by the fabricator.


Now, what do you think about my wheels?

Robert_Nashvill

Thanks, EnthuZ and to all the others who have responded.

Frankly, I can’t say I understand why a question about harness bar options should generate an argument about the risks/benefits of a harness bar Vs a full roll bar. I’ve competed in a lot of different kinds of events in a lot of different kinds of vehicles over the years and there is no one more “safety conscious” out there than I am but frankly, a harness bar and a roll-bar/cage have VERY different reasons for use and to argue about one over the other is a non-senseical IMHO.

I also can’t say I understand the need to bash the BCR bar, especially by someone who has, I’m sure, never seen one in person and who doesn’t have a dog in the hunt anyway. Frankly, I’m just glad a 350Z owner took the time and went to the trouble to design and build something that can help out someone else.

For now, I’m going to give the CG-Lock a try (already on order)…for less than $50 bucks I figure it’s worth a shot and anything that will keep my butt in the seat better will probably be well worth the investment. Maybe I’ll use the money I save to take some Evolution courses; that will probably help a lot more than any harness bar or roll bar.

stijed

Nashvill, I hope the CG lock works out for you, I sat in a turbo'd miata that had one and was pleasently surprised at how snug it seemed to keep me..

I'm not going to continue feeding this thread, but I stand by my statement that a.) the aluminum supports (anti-rotation bars) aren't strong enough to maintain the harness position in a crash, and b.) Enthuz's "certification" for the bar is totally and completely worthless for anything other then a PCA event.

amolaver

iTrader: (1)

Believe what you will. Around a racetrack, the STi is faster than a Z. I can say that because 1) I've driven both on the same track on the same day. Can you say the same? 2) All objective performance testing (as reported by the rags) says its performance envelope is bigger. Acceleration, lateral grip, and braking - all better. I'm a 350z owner, and I love my car, but I'm not a blind fool. Given equal drivers, the Subaru is faster. You may not want to hear it, but tough crap.

Yes, I think its ugly. I do think a stealth version - swap the trunk for a no wing version, put a front mount intercooler and swap the hood for a no scoop version - would be much better looking. Yes I think the Z would still be better looking.

The continued debate regarding the suitability of a harness bar in general, and the BCR in particular I think is rather amusing at this point. As I said earlier, choosing a harness bar vs a full or half cage is a personal preference. There are potential risks, and advantages/disadvantages to both. All of which have been beaten to death here and in other threads. Search for, and read them before deciding. If you approach the decision with an open mind, there is a lot of info out there to help you decide.

That being said, I'm even more tickled that no one else finds it offensive that EnthuZ is offering 'advice' on which harness bar to buy without qualifying his relationship to BCR. Hello? Bueller? The man has something to sell and money at stake here. When the 'selling points' of the BCR were brought into question, the answers either didn't materialize (ie, what does PCA approved mean other than the hoops preventing lateral movement of a harness, and after being bashed by EnthuZ, stijed is still in the right - his seat would meet this rule, as would just about any FIA certified seat), or the responses were dowright disingenuous ('.. It meets & exceeds any and all published requirements for a harness bar,' - whose? PCA? that doesn't seem to amount to much of anything. Certainly not FIA nor SFI since they don't have any standards as far as I know for a 'harness bar').

I've made my point. Robert_Nashvill is at least trying something else first. EnthuZ has chosen not to respond to criticisms of his sales tactics which I think speaks for itself. I will continue to inform any potential buyer of the facts as I see them, and I'm sure EnthuZ will do the same. stijed asked some legitimate questions politely, and yet he somehow is a troll. why are the inadequate answers not enough for people to understand that the questions are being asked for good reason? or, simply, that EnthuZ's answers are from the perspective of someone selling something as opposed to an interested/informed consumer.

To be clear, I'm not 100% against harness bars in the least. I think, for most people, they are probably the better choice actually. IMO, the combination of EnthuZ's sales tactics, and the price make the BCR offering not particularly attractive.

ahm