Stack

MoodDude

Stacy - I have State Farm also. I just heard they changed their coverage this year to not include HPDE events where as before they did. Have you heard this?

Also, if an event is timed - then that is some form of competition - like time trials. So, not sure what you mean by timed and no competition for this insurance.

sentry65

iTrader: (11)

this method sounds great as long as you don't get caught and go to jail for insurance fraud

Old School

iTrader: (28)

If you think I'm the only one that has considered this, you don't spend enough time at the track. EVERY SINGLE person I've seen wad up their street bikes on the track does this. Unless of course, you are pro.

Stack

Oh believe me, I know it happens... and we wonder why the insurance companies are running away... they know it happens too

Old School

iTrader: (28)

As much as they charge for insurance...it really shouldn't be an issue unless you have a dedicated track car. I mean, one track day a year or even two isn't enough to justify the premium some insurance companies charge for one or two days of coverage. Not only that, but if they hear you track your car....your regular car insurance is void. What a rip off.

Stack

Nothing directly from State Farm (but I'm guilty of not reading my policy). I have heard that though... I've even heard that all new and/or renewed plans after Nov '06 have the new wording.

You might have to refresh my memory of the context... time trialing is definitely competition, autocross is competition, basically, anytime there is a 'winner' whether its wheel-to-wheel or not... would be considered competition.

I personally don't feel that timing on an individual basis for the purpose of guaging one's progress is competitive, but I could see where insurance companies would view any sort of timing as 'increasing the risk' in terms of on-track driving... i.e. you're competing with yourself.

Stack

Show me what companies you're talking about that do per event coverage, please.

I'm sorry... but if I've got a 30k+ car that I'm still making payments on, and I'm dead set on taking it to the track, I'm thinking a premium might be worth it... especially if it means my regular insurance won't drop me because they know another company will handle that particular claim.

I don' disagree with you that its a rip-off... but this is an issue that theoretically could put an end to driving insured street cars on track and if we the entusiasts don't do something legitimate about it, and show the insurance industry some real data that accidents from these events are MUCH less than accidents on every-day driving, then thats exactly whats going to happen.

MoodDude

So how do we convince the insurance industry to realize that HPDE is much safer and makes a safer driver than someone driving on the street?

betamotorsports

iTrader: (1)

That's funny... Having done lots of HPDEs I personally feel (depending on the organization running the event) that they can sometimes be more dangerous then driving on the street. Some examples:

1. Ever have a HPDE driver give you a point by and then move in the direction he's pointing?
2. Ever have a HPDE driver intentionally brake check you because he felt you were driving too close to his car?
3. Ever seen a HPDE event organizer pass cars in the turns during the newbie track session, showing off his new EP Mazda RX7?
4. Ever seen a HPDE instructor dive bomb and then center punch a student's car while driving another student's car?
5. Ever seen a HPDE driver walk out on track during a session and throw a rock at another student's car?

... and lots more.

Stack

Well... that is a tough one isn't it?

But here are some thoughts...

• Find out exactly why the insurance companies are so against it
• There are plenty of other vices out there that are more dangerous that get covered... what makes this hobby so seemingly un-insurable?
• Get some actual factual data... how many events/attendees per year vs. how many incidents with claims or even potential claims
• Do the research and present it to them in a professional, rational manner

Anyone know if there are any research organizations out there that would do this kind of thing?

The other things we can do is start policing ourselves... John's post above about what he's seen at DEs before, while essentially unhelpful... does bring up a good point. If these types of things are going on, someone needs to be held responsible. It's not enough to kick them out of an event... there's so many ways to get on track now, that person will be back out there the very next weekend.

If you're seeing these things out on track... REPORT THEM!!! There's always a chance the event organizers aren't aware of whats going on. If it's one of the organizers, report it to the track officials. If you're reporting these things, and they aren't being taken care of, then stop going to that club's events.

Its obviously not just their safety out there, its YOURS.

I also would like to see a convention of event organizers get together and discuss the state of our hobby. Come up with a set of rules that DE's need to adhere to... something to show that we're all on the same page here.

Feffman

Gents:

There is a firm that specializes in on track insurace for HPDE. COntact David Empringham at LaurelDE (www.LaurelDE.com). He can give you all the details but the premium is based on the agreed upon car value and the number of events you do annually. Deductible is around 15% of value.

Per the usual, no vested interest, yada, yada, yada!

Mark Pfeffer - President MVP Track Time

MoodDude

John, I have seen some of what you are talking about, but either the organization does something about it, or if they don't I stop driving with them.
I still think that if you drive with a quality organization that attracts people who want to have fun and learn, then it is still much safer than the street. Since, everyone is driving in the same direction, the communication between drivers is 10x better than the street, and there are flag stations to tell you of hazards upahead.

Stack

I've only heard good things about Laurel... but there's still that nagging issue with them not being regulated like U.S. Insurance is (they're based in Canada). I've also heard (probably rumor) that they essentially only cater to PCA members (though I don't think you have to own a Porsche, just that you are a dues paying member). Maybe you can clarify?

Edit... directly from the website:
Also... being a fellow track day organizer... got any thoughts of some of the things I've proposed in this and a few other threads on other boards of late?

mhoward1

First and foremost I would have a very hard time in attending HPDE more than once that allowed that sort of behavior. Not for a HPDE. Hopefully if those sorts of items were regular occurrences, their attendance would drop enough that type event would be the rare breed. Luckily, out of all of those I have only seen 1 and 2. Maybe West Coast events are for those living on the edge!!

Second, I can honestly say that I have seen ALL of those in everyday traffic.
.

Including the dropping of cinder blocks from overpasses into heavy traffic (local news story).

Navygolf13

iTrader: (5)

There are places that will write this insurance, but it is cost prohibitive. As for a lot of the questions about why companies do not write this insurance it is because there is not "enough of a market" for this specific type.

You have to understand how they come up with rates for insurance to understand that they do not just have to pay for claims, but before they can offer it the company has to pay for lots of research to come up with the rates, as well as if it is a company like Farmers they have to pay the state that they are doing this insurance in to become admitted.

There is a lot that is involved in this. I am working on finding someone who will write this and is here in the United States. I can write it through Lloyds of London through a contact that I have, it is expensive. I will continue to work on this to find an affordable way of covering your car at the track.

As for taking the car home after wrecking it at the track may work, but you can go to jail very easily......

STRETCH

iTrader: (3)

Thanks Navygolf13. Looking forward to some productive research. I've tried everything

Old School

iTrader: (28)

I never said they do event coverage. I said paying track insurance for someone who only goes once or twice a year doesn't really make sense....you pay for coverage for the entire year or 6 months or whatever....but if you only go to the track twice...you're paying a 6 month- a year premium for TWO actual days of track use. Not very efficient. See what I mean now?

Stack

Navygolf... thanks for the info... this is kinda what I'm talking about when I mention trying to get industry people together so we can both educate each other. I personally would rather NOT see add-on types of coverage. I'd rather see us come up with some way traditional insurance would cover... at least under specific circumstances

Morris

iTrader: (1)

Bump foy any update?