Forced induction on the track... Turbo or SC?
10-09-2006, 05:16 AM
#22
Ah, excuse me Sentry.
Here is my thought on the shift point.
You want to keep the car in a "band" of rpm and torque that is optimal for peak output.
With the ATI Procharger, and some other applications of course, you will follow the power curve and see that it continues to climb as the rpm climbs. It may flatten out, but it typically climbs. You are making the engine work harder by churning those cylinders faster, but you are getting more power. Up to some maximum point of tolerance for the mechanicals, after which they fail or their durability/reliability declines to unacceptable levels. (Unacceptable for a dedicated race car and unacceptable for a daily driver you want to be able to run without major issues for three years in addition to zipping around a track a few times a year, and then reselling with a good conscience, are different things too!). You then think about your gearing, and the way the course lays out and what types of gear choices and shift points you are likely to want to try to optimize your driving.
The supercharger (centrifugal type) is "lazy", and builds continuously up to 6500 rpms, even more. So when you run the car for max power, you "live up high" in the rpm band.
With the smaller twin turbo, which spools up faster, you get into hp and torque sooner or lower down in the rpm band, and meet your optimums lower as well. With the 530 BB you get there, and then have a rather remarkable continuous hold or stability on your max output over a fairly long stretch, before you get a drop. The zone starts just below 4,000 rpm and goes to about 5,500. It is not a huge drop, but it is a drop. So if you are working to accelerate the car, which is mostly what you do on a track, keeping the car in a position to match the proper gear with the rpm is a key to making it jump like a rabbit. The track demand is get to the top attainable speed as fast as you can and hold it for as long as you can, then brake in the shortest space possible to the maximum speed that the car will still maintain traction as it enters into and progresses through a curve without losing control, and then accelerating out of the turn at the max exit velocity so that you start the next straight with the highest speed possible....and advantage to your ensuing acceleration all the way down the straight to the next braking point. Therefore, what really kicks butt on the track is the set up that will allow the car to accelerate from speeds around 50mph up to 140mph, in general. 0-60 times are just not all that relevant, unless you have a LeMans start...which is rare these days for a whole bunch of very good safety reasons.
Forgive me if this is too basic, but I think we would all agree that if you reach optimum power, and then upshift, you are starting off in a taller gear well below the optimal power level of what you want. If you move beyond that peak, and then upshift, you will apply more power to the taller gear immediately. Drop off in power is a critical feature, and a "peaky" power curve sucks because you are losing power as you stetch yourself to the shift point. There is a point of course beyond which if you hold in your lower gear before shifting that you are overworking the motor, even on a "flat" power curve, so you want to try to optimize your shift point "in the band" no matter what the power profile.
What is nice about the smaller tt is that you get the power early, and linear, so you have lots of useable power over a broad rpm range. Check out the Sport Z Magazine turbo shoot out comparison article for side by side objective testing data. It is true that you will NOT get the maximum power available from the motor. Bigger turbos will give you more power. You will wait longer to get it, because they take more force and time to spool up (and thus more "lag"), and it may not be as "useable".
So this gets us to the point of ..... what do you want to do with the car? If you want a bigger rwhp number to report off a dyno....go with the bigger turbos. And tune them carefully to be sure the violence of the application will not exceed the specs of the mechanicals that they push power through. If you want a "smoother" application, go smaller. If you want to track the car, as opposed to having a street rod, you may choose differently. There is no "best", as many on the threads will often say. There is only what is best for you, matching up the inherent strengths of the motor to the variety of FI choices to get what you desire.
With the JWT 530, there is just no point in shoving the motor an extra 1,000 rpm if it produces no more torque or hp....you are just working the beast harder for no appreciable gains. Now, please note, I am talking about a built motor with 8.5 to 1 static compression pistons on 12lbs of boost. If we change the boost setting the power profiles change slightly. If you boost a stock motor with 10.3 to 1 static compression pistons, you will have a different curve too. So whatever you do, match your driving approach to what the machine naturally is delivering. This is where your dyno map is of real interest to you....not where the peak is for bragging rights, but what it tells you that you can do when you get behind the wheel. It is something that you will learn by feel anyway...but if you have the mapping, you can go out with an anticipation of what the car will do, and with a few lap turns you will really be dialed in to what the car is going to deliver for you, and then you concentrate on what the suspension and tires are telling you as to the limits of what they will accept on the acceleration, braking and cornering so you can push to the limits with more confidence and safety.
Here is my thought on the shift point.
You want to keep the car in a "band" of rpm and torque that is optimal for peak output.
With the ATI Procharger, and some other applications of course, you will follow the power curve and see that it continues to climb as the rpm climbs. It may flatten out, but it typically climbs. You are making the engine work harder by churning those cylinders faster, but you are getting more power. Up to some maximum point of tolerance for the mechanicals, after which they fail or their durability/reliability declines to unacceptable levels. (Unacceptable for a dedicated race car and unacceptable for a daily driver you want to be able to run without major issues for three years in addition to zipping around a track a few times a year, and then reselling with a good conscience, are different things too!). You then think about your gearing, and the way the course lays out and what types of gear choices and shift points you are likely to want to try to optimize your driving.
The supercharger (centrifugal type) is "lazy", and builds continuously up to 6500 rpms, even more. So when you run the car for max power, you "live up high" in the rpm band.
With the smaller twin turbo, which spools up faster, you get into hp and torque sooner or lower down in the rpm band, and meet your optimums lower as well. With the 530 BB you get there, and then have a rather remarkable continuous hold or stability on your max output over a fairly long stretch, before you get a drop. The zone starts just below 4,000 rpm and goes to about 5,500. It is not a huge drop, but it is a drop. So if you are working to accelerate the car, which is mostly what you do on a track, keeping the car in a position to match the proper gear with the rpm is a key to making it jump like a rabbit. The track demand is get to the top attainable speed as fast as you can and hold it for as long as you can, then brake in the shortest space possible to the maximum speed that the car will still maintain traction as it enters into and progresses through a curve without losing control, and then accelerating out of the turn at the max exit velocity so that you start the next straight with the highest speed possible....and advantage to your ensuing acceleration all the way down the straight to the next braking point. Therefore, what really kicks butt on the track is the set up that will allow the car to accelerate from speeds around 50mph up to 140mph, in general. 0-60 times are just not all that relevant, unless you have a LeMans start...which is rare these days for a whole bunch of very good safety reasons.
Forgive me if this is too basic, but I think we would all agree that if you reach optimum power, and then upshift, you are starting off in a taller gear well below the optimal power level of what you want. If you move beyond that peak, and then upshift, you will apply more power to the taller gear immediately. Drop off in power is a critical feature, and a "peaky" power curve sucks because you are losing power as you stetch yourself to the shift point. There is a point of course beyond which if you hold in your lower gear before shifting that you are overworking the motor, even on a "flat" power curve, so you want to try to optimize your shift point "in the band" no matter what the power profile.
What is nice about the smaller tt is that you get the power early, and linear, so you have lots of useable power over a broad rpm range. Check out the Sport Z Magazine turbo shoot out comparison article for side by side objective testing data. It is true that you will NOT get the maximum power available from the motor. Bigger turbos will give you more power. You will wait longer to get it, because they take more force and time to spool up (and thus more "lag"), and it may not be as "useable".
So this gets us to the point of ..... what do you want to do with the car? If you want a bigger rwhp number to report off a dyno....go with the bigger turbos. And tune them carefully to be sure the violence of the application will not exceed the specs of the mechanicals that they push power through. If you want a "smoother" application, go smaller. If you want to track the car, as opposed to having a street rod, you may choose differently. There is no "best", as many on the threads will often say. There is only what is best for you, matching up the inherent strengths of the motor to the variety of FI choices to get what you desire.
With the JWT 530, there is just no point in shoving the motor an extra 1,000 rpm if it produces no more torque or hp....you are just working the beast harder for no appreciable gains. Now, please note, I am talking about a built motor with 8.5 to 1 static compression pistons on 12lbs of boost. If we change the boost setting the power profiles change slightly. If you boost a stock motor with 10.3 to 1 static compression pistons, you will have a different curve too. So whatever you do, match your driving approach to what the machine naturally is delivering. This is where your dyno map is of real interest to you....not where the peak is for bragging rights, but what it tells you that you can do when you get behind the wheel. It is something that you will learn by feel anyway...but if you have the mapping, you can go out with an anticipation of what the car will do, and with a few lap turns you will really be dialed in to what the car is going to deliver for you, and then you concentrate on what the suspension and tires are telling you as to the limits of what they will accept on the acceleration, braking and cornering so you can push to the limits with more confidence and safety.
10-09-2006, 05:52 AM
#23
Originally Posted by knight_white99
I don't feel that there is much tapering off of power in my car above 5000rpm. At Buttonwillow last weekend, my car was still pulling hard at 6000rpm plus in 5th gear on the back straight (going CCW after the Riverside sweeper). Maybe it's because I also have the Nismo cams and Crawford plenum that seems to increase air flow at higher rpm. Mraturbo thinks my car at 6.8 psi is making similar power to other JWT TT cars at 8 or 8.5 psi.
Heat is an issue that needs to be addressed. Larger radiator and oil cooler as a minimum. I will be getting a vented hood soon for some additional cooling.
You are running 13 quarts of oil, Ed? Where do you put it all? I am sure that you have the JWT spacer for an extra quart of oil, and maybe another quart in the oil cooler and lines, but what about the rest of it? What kind of oil temps do you see after running hard on the track?
While I haven't found a track yet that I can get up to 5000 rpm in 6th gear, I was above that in the Silver State Classic, and for quite a few miles, and that was even running with the taller 3.35 A/T gearing. You guys really should try it - it's a blast!
Heat is an issue that needs to be addressed. Larger radiator and oil cooler as a minimum. I will be getting a vented hood soon for some additional cooling.
You are running 13 quarts of oil, Ed? Where do you put it all? I am sure that you have the JWT spacer for an extra quart of oil, and maybe another quart in the oil cooler and lines, but what about the rest of it? What kind of oil temps do you see after running hard on the track?
While I haven't found a track yet that I can get up to 5000 rpm in 6th gear, I was above that in the Silver State Classic, and for quite a few miles, and that was even running with the taller 3.35 A/T gearing. You guys really should try it - it's a blast!
The system is further cooled with a three core aluminum radiator, with some water wetter in there, an iso thermal upper plenum spacer from Motordyne, and thermal barrier coatings on the turbos and some of the piping. The result is that on track the water temps are between 100 and 105 C under sustained max demand.
10-09-2006, 07:41 AM
#24
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Originally Posted by hiz-n-herz
FYI, I have an 06 GT 6MT, completely stock. I am not satisfied with the power, nor am I happy with the suspension. I am leaning towards NISMO s-tune suspension (I don't want to drop it much and still want a reasonable ride, but I don't care for the linear rate OEM rear springs or the OEM rear shocks which seem overly-compression-damped.
I am contemplating a Vortech SC or greddy TT or JWT TT. All on low boost (5-6 PSI on stock internals). I don't need to be the fastest car out there. Nor am I looking only for straight-line performance.
I am contemplating a Vortech SC or greddy TT or JWT TT. All on low boost (5-6 PSI on stock internals). I don't need to be the fastest car out there. Nor am I looking only for straight-line performance.
Try this...
If your thinking FI you will need a new clutch, stock is junk, so while you are changing this get a lightweight flywheel.
You’re not happy with the suspension, get some lighter wheels and some semi slick tires for now.
What you have done here is reduced rotational mass, thus giving you quicker acceleration. If you are still not satisfied with your handling then look into sway bars and possibly coilovers.
Before you even think of going with some form of FI do you have brembo brakes? Going fast is fun and all but I would rather have the ability to reliably stop a 3200lb bullet ASAP.
10-09-2006, 08:36 AM
#25
well that's cool, I always thought that if torque and engine speed balanced each other out as torque went down and rpm went up enough to balance it, you'd end up with a flat hp curve that didn't increase. And then I thought it'd be better to stay at peak hp than to drop down to lower hp briefly even though the torque might be higher, but overall less work is being done. I always thought that if the dyno was such that the actual hp started to drop as you went higher - like many turbo 300zx's do, then in that case you'd want to shift early
I also thought it was interesting that for people doing the fastest 1/4 times in stock Z's were shifting at 7000+ rpms where even though the torque really starts dropping off past 6300 rpms, the gearing was so much stronger that it was worth it anyway even if the power was dropping because the gear multiplier outweighed the small loss in hp
I was also under the impression that you might feel faster with a car with more torque than a car that revs higher, but doesn't mean it actually is faster. Like a stock 350Z might feel faster than a stock S2000 even though the S2000 can actually be faster. Or how a viper might feel more like a beast than a F430 even though usually the F430 seems to be an equal match or even faster because you have the dynamic of going from 0-530 tq instantly with the press of the throttle, but you never have the ability to go from 0-8500 rpms instantly
otherwise it'd seem like a big rig diesel engine reving to 3000 rpm's with huge power would be the F1 car's greatest secret weapon
but I don't know since I don't have a lot of experience driving a turbo Z
I also thought it was interesting that for people doing the fastest 1/4 times in stock Z's were shifting at 7000+ rpms where even though the torque really starts dropping off past 6300 rpms, the gearing was so much stronger that it was worth it anyway even if the power was dropping because the gear multiplier outweighed the small loss in hp
I was also under the impression that you might feel faster with a car with more torque than a car that revs higher, but doesn't mean it actually is faster. Like a stock 350Z might feel faster than a stock S2000 even though the S2000 can actually be faster. Or how a viper might feel more like a beast than a F430 even though usually the F430 seems to be an equal match or even faster because you have the dynamic of going from 0-530 tq instantly with the press of the throttle, but you never have the ability to go from 0-8500 rpms instantly
otherwise it'd seem like a big rig diesel engine reving to 3000 rpm's with huge power would be the F1 car's greatest secret weapon
but I don't know since I don't have a lot of experience driving a turbo Z
Last edited by sentry65; 10-09-2006 at 09:09 AM.
10-09-2006, 08:01 PM
#26
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Hey, Ed, thanks for the description of your oiling system. I would definitely like to have a look at it next time we are at a track together. I am curious - does either the pre-oiler or bypass filter act kind of like an oil catch can? I have been contemplating installing one of these.
Sounds like you have put an incredible amount of thought, time, effort and money into your setup to ensure that your engine lasts (knowing what I know about you, that doesn't surprise me). I read the article in the magazine and also some of your other web threads. I was most impressed by your thoroughness in dealing with the extra heat load. I still have some work to do in that area (though I am running only minimal boost).
Can't wait to run with you again. If I can keep up, that is... Hopefully, it will be a little easier now that I am also running the JWT turbos. But I will likely be running street tires again, so maybe not.
Sounds like you have put an incredible amount of thought, time, effort and money into your setup to ensure that your engine lasts (knowing what I know about you, that doesn't surprise me). I read the article in the magazine and also some of your other web threads. I was most impressed by your thoroughness in dealing with the extra heat load. I still have some work to do in that area (though I am running only minimal boost).
Can't wait to run with you again. If I can keep up, that is... Hopefully, it will be a little easier now that I am also running the JWT turbos. But I will likely be running street tires again, so maybe not.
10-10-2006, 04:54 AM
#27
Sentry:
It depends on every different car's set up, whether it is a built motor or not, blown or not, etc. , where the optimal shift points on any particular gearing will rest in the rpm band. But in general, while hp is neat, and one critically valid measure of output from the powerplant....it is the torque that is turning those wheels, that is the measure of revolving force transmitted to the ground, and if we want acceleration at higher speeds to reduce lap times, we need high speed torque from the car. When you get into the throttle, the time to go from 75mph to 115mph is what you may need shortened on a track. The gearing is important too of course, as has been noted in the thread. If you are a pro, and have the equipment and money and team required, you can analyze the circuit you are going to run and customize the entire gearing set up just for that circuit, then rip it out and replace it at the next track which is different (the gearing optimized for Lime Rock is not going to be the optimal for Road America or VIR!). But each one is predicated on how the motor is tuned and where it is producing its power.
For us stiffs who are relegated to relying on our own meagre resources, we have to search out the best compromise in a one size fits all configuration for street, track, etc. What is good about a "flat" climb power "curve" that reaches upward and then gets to a "plateau" before it falls, is it gives you a range of rpm that you can stretch out for the upshift so that you stay on that high output from one gear to the next. When you have a peak or mountain top curve it is very hard to keep the engine operating in that narrow zone around the peak all the time as you wrestle your way around the track. And if you fall off the peak, you pay dearly for it in results.
But it is all fun, and keeping your car balanced up high on a peaky motor has a lot of reward in terms of feeling good about your skills development when you can do it.
It depends on every different car's set up, whether it is a built motor or not, blown or not, etc. , where the optimal shift points on any particular gearing will rest in the rpm band. But in general, while hp is neat, and one critically valid measure of output from the powerplant....it is the torque that is turning those wheels, that is the measure of revolving force transmitted to the ground, and if we want acceleration at higher speeds to reduce lap times, we need high speed torque from the car. When you get into the throttle, the time to go from 75mph to 115mph is what you may need shortened on a track. The gearing is important too of course, as has been noted in the thread. If you are a pro, and have the equipment and money and team required, you can analyze the circuit you are going to run and customize the entire gearing set up just for that circuit, then rip it out and replace it at the next track which is different (the gearing optimized for Lime Rock is not going to be the optimal for Road America or VIR!). But each one is predicated on how the motor is tuned and where it is producing its power.
For us stiffs who are relegated to relying on our own meagre resources, we have to search out the best compromise in a one size fits all configuration for street, track, etc. What is good about a "flat" climb power "curve" that reaches upward and then gets to a "plateau" before it falls, is it gives you a range of rpm that you can stretch out for the upshift so that you stay on that high output from one gear to the next. When you have a peak or mountain top curve it is very hard to keep the engine operating in that narrow zone around the peak all the time as you wrestle your way around the track. And if you fall off the peak, you pay dearly for it in results.
But it is all fun, and keeping your car balanced up high on a peaky motor has a lot of reward in terms of feeling good about your skills development when you can do it.
10-10-2006, 05:37 AM
#28
Originally Posted by knight_white99
Hey, Ed, thanks for the description of your oiling system. I would definitely like to have a look at it next time we are at a track together. I am curious - does either the pre-oiler or bypass filter act kind of like an oil catch can? I have been contemplating installing one of these.
Sounds like you have put an incredible amount of thought, time, effort and money into your setup to ensure that your engine lasts (knowing what I know about you, that doesn't surprise me). I read the article in the magazine and also some of your other web threads. I was most impressed by your thoroughness in dealing with the extra heat load. I still have some work to do in that area (though I am running only minimal boost).
Can't wait to run with you again. If I can keep up, that is... Hopefully, it will be a little easier now that I am also running the JWT turbos. But I will likely be running street tires again, so maybe not.
Sounds like you have put an incredible amount of thought, time, effort and money into your setup to ensure that your engine lasts (knowing what I know about you, that doesn't surprise me). I read the article in the magazine and also some of your other web threads. I was most impressed by your thoroughness in dealing with the extra heat load. I still have some work to do in that area (though I am running only minimal boost).
Can't wait to run with you again. If I can keep up, that is... Hopefully, it will be a little easier now that I am also running the JWT turbos. But I will likely be running street tires again, so maybe not.
The oil catch can is totally separate in function. If I could figure out how to fit it in there I will put one on, but for right now I do not have it installed. What with the proven accumulation of residual oils in the upper collector, I would like to do it. I owe many thanks to our friend DaveO for his ideas in a number of areas, including especially thermal management, Mike A for the motor build, ChicagoX on the fluidampr, Jim W and Clark S on the turbos and fmu and tune, Sharif for the ATS clutch and flywheel, and the input of literally dozens of enthusiasts across the country who threw out all manner of ideas and advice. Scott B, in addition to having very excellent perspective on numerous items, also brought a racer's edge to the process. He knows how to make it go fast and to feel the pro and con to the various elements. It is one thing for you or me to go what we think is "fast". It is another to have someone that can drive at a whole different and higher level get in the car and set it up as a complete package. It really makes for a much better feeling of confidence when you get in there an start to "push the envelope" to know that the car can do it, and you are the weakest link. That may not be the best ego thing in the world.....but hey....let us grow up about that. We are for the most part not great drivers. Maybe better than 99.9% of the population...but it is like the difference between being a scratch golfer, and playing on the PGA tour. I cannot and never will be able to drive a car that fast. Fortunately for me, I have another day job. Tapping into the collective brainpower and experience of many made for a great experience in both learning and ultimate outcome.
10-11-2006, 06:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Eagle1
I will be happy to show you the system. Mike A and Brent were not real happy with me when trying to figure out how to mount the BMK-13, but they got it done neatly. It was the first one they have done, but with the results given it is not likely to be the last. Same with the fluidampr, the thermal coatings, and some other goodies we specified. Not for everyone....it depends on what you need for your use. But it works and that is what matters.
The oil catch can is totally separate in function. If I could figure out how to fit it in there I will put one on, but for right now I do not have it installed. What with the proven accumulation of residual oils in the upper collector, I would like to do it. I owe many thanks to our friend DaveO for his ideas in a number of areas, including especially thermal management, Mike A for the motor build, ChicagoX on the fluidampr, Jim W and Clark S on the turbos and fmu and tune, Sharif for the ATS clutch and flywheel, and the input of literally dozens of enthusiasts across the country who threw out all manner of ideas and advice. Scott B, in addition to having very excellent perspective on numerous items, also brought a racer's edge to the process. He knows how to make it go fast and to feel the pro and con to the various elements. It is one thing for you or me to go what we think is "fast". It is another to have someone that can drive at a whole different and higher level get in the car and set it up as a complete package. It really makes for a much better feeling of confidence when you get in there an start to "push the envelope" to know that the car can do it, and you are the weakest link. That may not be the best ego thing in the world.....but hey....let us grow up about that. We are for the most part not great drivers. Maybe better than 99.9% of the population...but it is like the difference between being a scratch golfer, and playing on the PGA tour. I cannot and never will be able to drive a car that fast. Fortunately for me, I have another day job. Tapping into the collective brainpower and experience of many made for a great experience in both learning and ultimate outcome.
The oil catch can is totally separate in function. If I could figure out how to fit it in there I will put one on, but for right now I do not have it installed. What with the proven accumulation of residual oils in the upper collector, I would like to do it. I owe many thanks to our friend DaveO for his ideas in a number of areas, including especially thermal management, Mike A for the motor build, ChicagoX on the fluidampr, Jim W and Clark S on the turbos and fmu and tune, Sharif for the ATS clutch and flywheel, and the input of literally dozens of enthusiasts across the country who threw out all manner of ideas and advice. Scott B, in addition to having very excellent perspective on numerous items, also brought a racer's edge to the process. He knows how to make it go fast and to feel the pro and con to the various elements. It is one thing for you or me to go what we think is "fast". It is another to have someone that can drive at a whole different and higher level get in the car and set it up as a complete package. It really makes for a much better feeling of confidence when you get in there an start to "push the envelope" to know that the car can do it, and you are the weakest link. That may not be the best ego thing in the world.....but hey....let us grow up about that. We are for the most part not great drivers. Maybe better than 99.9% of the population...but it is like the difference between being a scratch golfer, and playing on the PGA tour. I cannot and never will be able to drive a car that fast. Fortunately for me, I have another day job. Tapping into the collective brainpower and experience of many made for a great experience in both learning and ultimate outcome.
As far as driving skill goes, my experience is that even drivers at the pro level may not be any better than a gifted amatuer. The difference is often being in the right place at the right time, and/or having the money to pursue what for some is a hobby and for others is a life's dream. There are many great drivers that are not driving as pros simply for lack of sponsorship. That said, there is of course a difference of skill level to become a champion at certain levels of the pro ranks vs. an also-ran who is in the mid-pack or lower.
Suspension (and setup) is one of the most difficult things to get right when it comes to setting up a car for track use, especially for a non-professional (or at least someone without many hours of track time). There are so many variables, and so many possible adjustments to be made. I myself have gone through 4 aftermarket suspensions searching for the right combo for this 350Z. I think I have enough experience at a high enough level of racing that I can tell when things just don't feel right. Every time another change is made on the car (such as adding the considerable weight of the turbos), the balance of the car is changed. I had what felt like a decent setup last time I was at Cali Speedway (when I met you). Now that I have the turbos installed, the balance of the car is not what it was, and I am looking to do more suspension tuning (its a battle than I may never be satisfied with). Being able to find the right balance given a driver's style is critical for good lap times. I may end up having some springs custom made to get the balance that I am looking for. Of course, if I had an unlimited budget, I would get some Moton's and go from there. (Anyone want to sponsor me for some Moton's???
)
10-11-2006, 09:56 AM
#33
You hit the nail on the head with those suspension comments. I could not agree more.
I just took out the Tein with EDFC and put in a custom set of coilovers developed by Stance with VRT. I am itching to get out there on the track and try them out. Scott Bush was working with Mike A on getting this going, and they were specifically set up for the G and Z cars. Both Scott and Mike are effusive about them.....but we shall see. the key is not how they treat you most of the time....it is when you are out on the edge and pushing it, and how far out do they take the edge on your car compared to before. From what I am told.....they are a great new addition to the inventory of performance parts.
I just took out the Tein with EDFC and put in a custom set of coilovers developed by Stance with VRT. I am itching to get out there on the track and try them out. Scott Bush was working with Mike A on getting this going, and they were specifically set up for the G and Z cars. Both Scott and Mike are effusive about them.....but we shall see. the key is not how they treat you most of the time....it is when you are out on the edge and pushing it, and how far out do they take the edge on your car compared to before. From what I am told.....they are a great new addition to the inventory of performance parts.
10-12-2006, 05:54 AM
#34
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Originally Posted by betamotorsports
Wait. Penske should have a double adjustable coil-over setup in the $2,000 price range for the 350Z soon.
Ed, I'd like to hear a "test" report on the new VRT coilovers too after you get to try them out.
Thanks, guys.
10-12-2006, 08:17 AM
#35
FINALLY. Sounds like you are connected. Can you let me know when these are available?
I'm hoping to prototype a set on my car near the end of this year. Anyone want to buy a nice series 1 1971 240Z to help finance the effort?
02-24-2007, 08:30 PM
#36
I would have to drive BOTH in a Z on the track and decide from there. My experience, on the track? SC felt better. But, that wasn't a Z. Turbo can be tricky, regardless of what people say. You go 120 down the front straight at ANY track, mash the BBK and stomp on the pedal after your 90 degree turn and you watch what happens when the boost kicks in!!!
Sure, you get used to it. And, you make changes accordingly. I personally like having that raw power exiting the turns. Put you in better position in the straights. PERIOD!
But, to each his/her own...
Sure, you get used to it. And, you make changes accordingly. I personally like having that raw power exiting the turns. Put you in better position in the straights. PERIOD!
But, to each his/her own...
02-25-2007, 05:07 AM
#37
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About the oil system, I went with a remote mounted oil filter and oil accusump for my car. I went this route since the remote mounted filter do not have a bypass and have a much larger surface area. It was a pain in the *ss to find a good location for it and the accusump, but I did fit it in there.
About the suspension - the great thing about it is that an ideal set up for one track is not for another. You actually must learn what everything does, try changes and test the results. And as a side note - I would also love a triple adjustable coilover set up, yet I have been focused on other things right now (like getting my own trailer for the car instead of borrowing someones).
About the shift points - I have followed what Carroll Smith advice was in Drive to Win, take your dyno chart and find out what the maximum area under the Hp curve will give you at different shift points. This will maximizes your acceleration of the car instead of stretching a gear and shifting at redline.
As far as this thread goes - Turbo or Supercharger - this will be a forever battle. I think that most people have felt a really bad (or old) set up Turbo system and than conclude that all Turbo's are not good for track.
About the suspension - the great thing about it is that an ideal set up for one track is not for another. You actually must learn what everything does, try changes and test the results. And as a side note - I would also love a triple adjustable coilover set up, yet I have been focused on other things right now (like getting my own trailer for the car instead of borrowing someones).
About the shift points - I have followed what Carroll Smith advice was in Drive to Win, take your dyno chart and find out what the maximum area under the Hp curve will give you at different shift points. This will maximizes your acceleration of the car instead of stretching a gear and shifting at redline.
As far as this thread goes - Turbo or Supercharger - this will be a forever battle. I think that most people have felt a really bad (or old) set up Turbo system and than conclude that all Turbo's are not good for track.
