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Old Feb 5, 2007 | 12:42 PM
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Default Car Pitch Quiz

Let's say the front of your car lifts under acceleration (pitches up) and you want to reduce that behavior because its unloading your splitter and increasing understeer as you exit the corner. Would increasing the front spring rate reduce the pitch, and if so, why?
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Old Feb 5, 2007 | 12:45 PM
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I would say the opposite in a RWD car - stiffer springs in the rear should help prevent the rear from squatting more.
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Old Feb 5, 2007 | 12:51 PM
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Remember, longitudinal load transfer depends entirely on the wheelbase and the height of the center of gravity. Increasing the rear spring rate will have no affect on the amount of weight moved from front to rear (excluding the slight change in CG height resulting from pitch change).
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Old Feb 5, 2007 | 12:51 PM
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+1 in any car.
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Old Feb 5, 2007 | 12:53 PM
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So, you're answer to my question is, "No, increasing front spring rate will not reduce front pitch up." Correct?
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Old Feb 5, 2007 | 12:56 PM
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just a reverse engineering question for you...

how do you think raising the front spring rate would change the squat characteristics?

I always thought raising the front s.r. was a way to increase the rear end squat (if the rear is left alone).
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Old Feb 5, 2007 | 12:57 PM
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Originally Posted by betamotorsports
So, you're answer to my question is, "No, increasing front spring rate will not reduce front pitch up." Correct?
no how could it? With a set of coil overs and enough lift the spring will un seat itself from the pearches.

Always could adjust the rebound in your shock to be stiffer but may have other adverse affects.
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Old Feb 5, 2007 | 12:58 PM
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Originally Posted by betamotorsports
So, you're answer to my question is, "No, increasing front spring rate will not reduce front pitch up." Correct?
Yes.
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Old Feb 5, 2007 | 01:12 PM
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Think of it this way...

For sake of discussion, let's say that because of wheelbase and CG height the car will transfer 500 lbs. of load to the rear under .8G of acceleration regardless of what springs are on the front and back. That 500 lbs. comes off the front wheels.

EXAMPLE 1 (Front 250 lb. in. rate springs with a 1:1 motion ratio in the suspension)
Under load the front of the car will extend (pitch up) 1" under acceleration.

EXAMPLE 2 (Front 350 lb. in. rate springs with a 1:1 motion ratio in the suspension)
Under load the front of the car will extend (pitch up) .71" under acceleration.

The front will pitch up the numbers listed above even if you install steel rods in the rear suspension replacing the rear springs. That 500 lbs. of load is moving to the rear and coming off the front of the car.

From Mark Ortiz's latest chassis engineering newsletter:

ZERO-DROOP SETUPS

The next question I have is about suspension droop travel limit fwd and aft. I have seen that modern single seaters have no droop at all. Now I am not sure about a historic racecar like my March F2 (year 1971).

The shock stroke (fwd and aft) during hard driving is about 20mm. I know aft shocks should have more travel than fwd shocks but how much?

Corner exit on acceleration the car is pitching fwd up and with no droop can help to get more weight on the car fwd because the unsprung weight will help to hold the nose down. Until now I made the shock adjustment with more rebound but I think that's the wrong way to fix the problem.

The only reason it makes any sense to not let the suspension move freely in droop is to control ground-clearance-sensitive aerodynamic elements. From every other perspective, making the suspension top out prematurely is a bad thing.


For best mechanical grip, we want the suspension to extend freely until the springs reach zero load, and then stop. If the suspension extends further, so that the springs hang loose, that doesn't hurt grip but it can cause the springs to beat up the shocks, or the spring retainers or adjusting collars, or other pieces, if it happens very often.

If the suspension tops out before the springs unload, that abruptly unloads the tires, but it also keeps the ground clearance from growing, at least as long as we don't pull the wheels off the ground. That's bad for mechanical grip, but it's good for aerodynamics if we've got a floor, a valance, a splitter, or a wing that has to be near the ground to work well.

From what I can tell by pictures on-line, the March 712 has a fairly broad chisel-shaped nose, with two small nose wings on the sides of the chisel. The radiator is in the nose, fed by an intake below the leading edge of the chisel, and exhausting through an outlet on the top of the chisel. The little

wings are up fairly high compared to later cars. It doesn't look like the car would be highly sensitive to ground clearance at the front. The car pre-dates tunnels and diffusers; the floor isn't designed to make downforce. It has a rear wing, but this would not be highly sensitive to ride height either. So I don't think the car would realize the same advantages as a more modern car from zero-droop suspension.

There is no hard and fast rule for the relationship between front and rear shock travel, as shown by travel indicators on the shock shafts. In tail-heavy, rear-engined cars, it is common for the front suspension to have a higher natural frequency and smaller static deflection than the rear. That is, the front suspension is stiffer in ride than the rear, relative to its sprung mass. This normally results in more suspension travel at the rear than at the front. Also, it is normal to have more aerodynamic downforce at the rear than at the front. This will result in the shock travel indicators showing more travel at the rear than at the front, if the motion ratios are similar. Looking at photos, it appears that the motion ratios at the front and rear of the March 712 are fairly similar. So if the travels are similar, it may be that the rear springs are a bit stiff relative to the front – but not necessarily.

Keeping the front end from lifting under power will only add a little bit of load to the front tires – and concomitantly reduce rear tire loading a little. The amount of rearward load transfer, for a given forward acceleration, depends entirely on the height of the center of gravity and the wheelbase. How much the nose lifts wouldn't matter at all, except that more nose lift does result in a slightly higher c.g. If the front of the car seems to lift excessively under power, stiffer front springs will reduce that. You may want to combine the stiffer springs with more rear anti-roll bar or less front anti-roll bar.

Some readers may find it surprising that the front end lifts less with stiffer springs, but that is indeed the case. A stiffer spring doesn't mean more upward force. It means less travel for a given load change – hence less extension travel for a given load decrease.

Ordinarily, we don't want to keep load on the front tires under power; we want load to transfer to the rear so we can put power to the ground. This is true unless the car understeers excessively on corner exit. This is not uncommon in rear-engined cars, but a more common complaint in racing generally is that the car spins the wheels and/or oversteers on exit. A car that is too tight (understeers too much) power-on is a problem that racers in many classes would kill to have. If the back tires stick too well, just feed them more power, goes the reasoning.


This doesn't always work, however. There may be no more power available; the driver may have the throttle wide open already. This is often encountered in Formula Fords. Or the understeer may simply increase until power breaks the rear tires loose completely, whereupon the rear end suddenly snaps out.

The March appears to have very short control arms, especially the uppers. That means that either the camber recovery goes away markedly as the suspension extends, or the roll center rises as the


suspension extends, or both. Having that happen at the front would worsen a power push, and stiffer front springs would reduce the lift. Restricting droop travel would keep the nose down too, but the
effect would be abrupt, and the roll resistance would abruptly increase, worsening the push. More spring and less bar keeps the front end down more, without that problem.
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Old Feb 5, 2007 | 01:19 PM
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how do you think raising the front spring rate would change the squat characteristics?
FYI... the question was about front lift, not squat, and I think that confused you guys a little bit. There's a subtle difference between front lift and squat that is important when tuning the aerodynamics of a car.
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Old Feb 5, 2007 | 05:22 PM
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Okay new rule.

You have to wait more than 1 hour before giving the answer next time ! :P
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Old Feb 5, 2007 | 05:39 PM
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It's been a long time since I've had to put my physics hat on, but are you comparing apples to oranges? Basic physic principle may sound the same, but suspension designs are completely different and have different effects.

Let's throw the other extreme, have no spring in the front in place of a solid front suspension, what would happen there?
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Old Feb 5, 2007 | 05:55 PM
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An element of the problem was that front pitch was affecting front down force on the car. If that is what we want to correct, it comes to sense that stiffer spring will reduce the amount of travel in the suspension for a given load.

The solution is then to run stiffer springs with a lower ride height, depending on the rest of the track and how much pitch sensitivity the driver is comfortable with.
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Old Feb 5, 2007 | 06:22 PM
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Assumptions: 350Z website, RR/AX forum, and driving on a smooth tarmac under acceleration.

What I disagree with is that stiffer springs in our application also have much shorter travel length, and it's therefore more common to see wheels lift with this than anything else. The issue is that different spring rates have a different length under static load as opposed to be dynamically compressed (progressive v. linear). Under a dynamic load (in this case under acceleration) in a RWD car, the rotational tendency will occur over the rear axle. In this case, the front tires will lose their contact patch since the springs are usually too short and/or rebound is too soft. In the case of your question, the front of the car is still going to lift based on the rotation of the rear axle (there's a reason the spring is to the behind the rear axle), so the key is to have the car maintain contact patch. So all sorts of new factors come into play - spring rate, alignment settings, et cetera.

So what is the answer? There is none unless you nail down more specifics to your question. Suspensions designs are complicated and continue to evolve, hence the reason contemporary designs are much better than their predessors of years prior (ie referencing historic race cars). I love "How to Make Your Car Handle", but I see a lot of moot points since it's a book based on suspension theory from the 70s.

Last edited by John; Feb 5, 2007 at 06:27 PM.
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Old Feb 6, 2007 | 07:17 AM
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Let's throw the other extreme, have no spring in the front in place of a solid front suspension, what would happen there?
Assuming our 500lbs of load transfer isn't the entire front weight of the vehicle, nothing will happen as far as front pitch up is concerned. The front ride height will remain the same regardless of load until you transfer the entire front weight of the vehicle to the rear. Then you get a wheelie. Ever watch a AA/F Gasser at the drag strip?
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