Bad news from John at Buttonwillow
Originally Posted by zillinois
Hey Mike, doing good. Yeah, I was slammed last season with getting the Diasio rebuilt and dialed in. Didn't really get a chance to post much last year. I'm ready to go this year though. I'll probably post up some pics of the new setup once I'm done. I kept an eye on your track posts, like the C-west bumper and VRT. I've even had a small hand in developing a track part for the Z that should be coming out soon.
You guys know John is probably hamming his pain up so his little Polish sweetie will pamper him.
You guys know John is probably hamming his pain up so his little Polish sweetie will pamper him.
John - Glad to hear that you are ok and that you have such a good attitude towards it. A tell tale sign of a good driver is one that analizes and learns from his mistakes. Although un-fortunate, I am sure that everything will work out for the best.
Thread Starter
Registered User
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 804
Likes: 0
From: Las Vegas, NV
John, I want to commend you on your attitude. Your post shows real maturity, and although this has been a painful lesson, as a friend, I'm grateful that it has only cost you some hardware. It could have been much worse.
Although I've joked about what a wild driver you are, I've always felt you had the talent to back it up. But in the back of my mind, being the mentor and father figure (and old fart) that I am, I've always been a little worried that you might get into trouble one day. Unfortunately, that day has come. Fortunately, you weren't hurt.
I'm not saying "I told you so," because I've always kept these thoughts to myself, and because I don't imagine that I'm immune to making mistakes on track myself.
But I hope John's experience can be a lesson to everyone reading this thread: you've got to keep the risks of this activity in the front of your mind at all times. Safety should be your top concern, in terms of the preparation of your car and your head. Spend money on safety equipment (helmet, harnesses, roll bars, etc.) as readily as you would on an engine or suspension mod. Be patient in building up your speed, especially on an unfamiliar track. Slow and safe is a hell of a lot better than fast and in the wall, even if it doesn't make for such good stories afterwards.
I'll be running four track days in April, two on my home track, but with new tire sizes and race pads, and two at Buttonwillow, an unfamiliar track, in an unfamiliar car. Although I'm naturally a little more cautious than John (okay, a lot more cautious than John), his unfortunate experience will be in the front of my mind on each of these days, reminding me to be patient and take it easy. There may be guys behind me waving and shouting for me to go faster than 25 through the esses, but that will be their problem.
Okay, sermon's over. Let's be careful out there.
Although I've joked about what a wild driver you are, I've always felt you had the talent to back it up. But in the back of my mind, being the mentor and father figure (and old fart) that I am, I've always been a little worried that you might get into trouble one day. Unfortunately, that day has come. Fortunately, you weren't hurt.
I'm not saying "I told you so," because I've always kept these thoughts to myself, and because I don't imagine that I'm immune to making mistakes on track myself.
But I hope John's experience can be a lesson to everyone reading this thread: you've got to keep the risks of this activity in the front of your mind at all times. Safety should be your top concern, in terms of the preparation of your car and your head. Spend money on safety equipment (helmet, harnesses, roll bars, etc.) as readily as you would on an engine or suspension mod. Be patient in building up your speed, especially on an unfamiliar track. Slow and safe is a hell of a lot better than fast and in the wall, even if it doesn't make for such good stories afterwards.
I'll be running four track days in April, two on my home track, but with new tire sizes and race pads, and two at Buttonwillow, an unfamiliar track, in an unfamiliar car. Although I'm naturally a little more cautious than John (okay, a lot more cautious than John), his unfortunate experience will be in the front of my mind on each of these days, reminding me to be patient and take it easy. There may be guys behind me waving and shouting for me to go faster than 25 through the esses, but that will be their problem.
Okay, sermon's over. Let's be careful out there.
Originally Posted by commasense
John, I want to commend you on your attitude. Your post shows real maturity, and although this has been a painful lesson, as a friend, I'm grateful that it has only cost you some hardware. It could have been much worse.
Although I've joked about what a wild driver you are, I've always felt you had the talent to back it up. But in the back of my mind, being the mentor and father figure (and old fart) that I am, I've always been a little worried that you might get into trouble one day. Unfortunately, that day has come. Fortunately, you weren't hurt.
I'm not saying "I told you so," because I've always kept these thoughts to myself, and because I don't imagine that I'm immune to making mistakes on track myself.
But I hope John's experience can be a lesson to everyone reading this thread: you've got to keep the risks of this activity in the front of your mind at all times. Safety should be your top concern, in terms of the preparation of your car and your head. Spend money on safety equipment (helmet, harnesses, roll bars, etc.) as readily as you would on an engine or suspension mod. Be patient in building up your speed, especially on an unfamiliar track. Slow and safe is a hell of a lot better than fast and in the wall, even if it doesn't make for such good stories afterwards.
I'll be running four track days in April, two on my home track, but with new tire sizes and race pads, and two at Buttonwillow, an unfamiliar track, in an unfamiliar car. Although I'm naturally a little more cautious than John (okay, a lot more cautious than John), his unfortunate experience will be in the front of my mind on each of these days, reminding me to be patient and take it easy. There may be guys behind me waving and shouting for me to go faster than 25 through the esses, but that will be their problem.
Okay, sermon's over. Let's be careful out there.
Although I've joked about what a wild driver you are, I've always felt you had the talent to back it up. But in the back of my mind, being the mentor and father figure (and old fart) that I am, I've always been a little worried that you might get into trouble one day. Unfortunately, that day has come. Fortunately, you weren't hurt.
I'm not saying "I told you so," because I've always kept these thoughts to myself, and because I don't imagine that I'm immune to making mistakes on track myself.
But I hope John's experience can be a lesson to everyone reading this thread: you've got to keep the risks of this activity in the front of your mind at all times. Safety should be your top concern, in terms of the preparation of your car and your head. Spend money on safety equipment (helmet, harnesses, roll bars, etc.) as readily as you would on an engine or suspension mod. Be patient in building up your speed, especially on an unfamiliar track. Slow and safe is a hell of a lot better than fast and in the wall, even if it doesn't make for such good stories afterwards.
I'll be running four track days in April, two on my home track, but with new tire sizes and race pads, and two at Buttonwillow, an unfamiliar track, in an unfamiliar car. Although I'm naturally a little more cautious than John (okay, a lot more cautious than John), his unfortunate experience will be in the front of my mind on each of these days, reminding me to be patient and take it easy. There may be guys behind me waving and shouting for me to go faster than 25 through the esses, but that will be their problem.
Okay, sermon's over. Let's be careful out there.
For all us non-professional HPDE fanatics, self-preservation of body and car should be at the front of our minds. It doesn't mean you can't push the limits, but at least slowly build up to the limits of your own abilities and that of the vehicle. Normally your abilities give out first.
Originally Posted by John
OK, here I am...
Yes, the car is indeed deceased. What happened? Well, a combination of things, but ultimately the icing on the cake was my driving. I came to a new track with a new suspension, and I simply pushed the envelope too much with the car without respecting the track enough. Instead of spending time on perfecting the line and learning the nooks and crannies of the track, I focused too much on exploring the limits of my new suspension. Another mistake was that I should have been running a little more conservatively on my rear sway bar setting to learn the car instead of flicking it around.
As mentioned, I came into the esses (13CCW) pretty hot, using the curbs pretty aggresively. As I crested the last left curb hard, I got knocked sideways in a blink of an eye and I was sent sideways directly into the raised concrete flag stand, which was protected by a layer of tires. Nothing I could do at that point, and I saw the corner workers there jump out of the nest right before I impacted.
The damage? Well, ground zero was right behind the front right wheel - the entire firewall is shifted over several inches. I almost rolled, and I have to say that I can't say enough for having my roll bar there. I didn't even notice the airbags go off, and the OEM door bars held up wonderfully. I have to admit that these cars really do well in protecting the cabin as I had a VERY hard impact that probably would have seriously injured the passengers in most cars.
All in all, I'm alright, although my ego is bruised and I know that my neck is going to be throbbing tomorrow. I have nobody to blame but myself as I make all the decisions on my car, and as the driver, I made a mistake that I can't take back. There were a lot of preventive measures that could have avoided this accident, but that's all in hindsight... it's unfortunate, but just a friendly reminder that unless you can bite the bullet and write off the car, you probably shouldn't be taking it to the track. While I'm pretty upset that I totalled my car, I think I'm more upset that I did it at the time that I did. This weekend was the culmination of many hours of personal work and energy to get the car back where I wanted it to be, and unfortunately, my enjoyment of that moment was minimal...
I have no idea what's next to be honest, I will just need some time to recoup my thoughts and prepare myself for whatever lies ahead.
I'll take some photos tomorrow for your sadistic enjoyment...
Yes, the car is indeed deceased. What happened? Well, a combination of things, but ultimately the icing on the cake was my driving. I came to a new track with a new suspension, and I simply pushed the envelope too much with the car without respecting the track enough. Instead of spending time on perfecting the line and learning the nooks and crannies of the track, I focused too much on exploring the limits of my new suspension. Another mistake was that I should have been running a little more conservatively on my rear sway bar setting to learn the car instead of flicking it around.
As mentioned, I came into the esses (13CCW) pretty hot, using the curbs pretty aggresively. As I crested the last left curb hard, I got knocked sideways in a blink of an eye and I was sent sideways directly into the raised concrete flag stand, which was protected by a layer of tires. Nothing I could do at that point, and I saw the corner workers there jump out of the nest right before I impacted.
The damage? Well, ground zero was right behind the front right wheel - the entire firewall is shifted over several inches. I almost rolled, and I have to say that I can't say enough for having my roll bar there. I didn't even notice the airbags go off, and the OEM door bars held up wonderfully. I have to admit that these cars really do well in protecting the cabin as I had a VERY hard impact that probably would have seriously injured the passengers in most cars.
All in all, I'm alright, although my ego is bruised and I know that my neck is going to be throbbing tomorrow. I have nobody to blame but myself as I make all the decisions on my car, and as the driver, I made a mistake that I can't take back. There were a lot of preventive measures that could have avoided this accident, but that's all in hindsight... it's unfortunate, but just a friendly reminder that unless you can bite the bullet and write off the car, you probably shouldn't be taking it to the track. While I'm pretty upset that I totalled my car, I think I'm more upset that I did it at the time that I did. This weekend was the culmination of many hours of personal work and energy to get the car back where I wanted it to be, and unfortunately, my enjoyment of that moment was minimal...
I have no idea what's next to be honest, I will just need some time to recoup my thoughts and prepare myself for whatever lies ahead.
I'll take some photos tomorrow for your sadistic enjoyment...
Waiting patiently for war footage. Did you have any in car video? I would have loved to see the corner workers jumping from the crow's nest. I know I'm evil.
Man, I hate hearing about someone wrecking their car at the track. Glad you aren't hurt and the safety systems in the car did their job. Time to look for a 350Z shell somewhere and transfer all your good part onto it. Call Nissan Motorsports. Maybe you can get a "body in white."
BTW... everyone who runs their car at a race track will have some kind of encounter with a wall or a roll over. Its just a matter of when.
BTW... everyone who runs their car at a race track will have some kind of encounter with a wall or a roll over. Its just a matter of when.
wow, hard hit
John that car might be fixable. At the runoffs two years ago we had a hard hit on the front end and one frame horn was bent at a 45 degree angle and the other one was 30 degrees. Of course all of the front end was gone as well as one fender. We replace the worst bent horn and had the other one straightened out and a plate welded on to add strength at the bent point. It also went on a frame machine and was worked on with an expert. It took a lot of parts to make it whole but the whole thing runs great and straight. Check on that phone number I gave you and see if Bill has any leads on a shell or parts. its possible that the worst condition might be a front end clip which is do-able. Good luck with if. If you were still in this area we would put you in touch with our frame guy. Bob
sorry about that. Though I dont know you personally, Im glad you didnt get hurt. A wreck can be pretty devastating considering the stuff you have already done to the car and just by being IN a wreck. 
good luck to you on your next journey. hope to see you in a track soon.
good luck to you on your next journey. hope to see you in a track soon.
Originally Posted by commasense
I just got a call from John. While running at Buttonwillow this weekend, he spun and hit the wall. He's okay -- sore in a couple places -- but the car is totalled. He towed it to the track, so he can get home (although he's not sure if or how he'll get the damaged car onto the trailer), but the car is done. He said it was the hardest hit he's ever seen at the track.
I'll let him explain exactly what happened and show the pictures when he's back online, but I thought I'd let you all know.
My condolences, John, but at least you're not hurt.
I'll let him explain exactly what happened and show the pictures when he's back online, but I thought I'd let you all know.
My condolences, John, but at least you're not hurt.
Just kidding, hope he's alright.
Registered User
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 67
Likes: 1
From: al
I second you all , very glad and relieved to hear John is ok.
I have the greatest respect for John's driving and teaching skills , as he instructed me at road atlanta 2 yrs ago.
hope you will get back tracking soon.
jose
I have the greatest respect for John's driving and teaching skills , as he instructed me at road atlanta 2 yrs ago.
hope you will get back tracking soon.
jose
Just got back from running Buttonwillow on Sunday. I heard about someone smacking the cornerworker station hard on Saturday in a Z, and walking away from it, but did not realize it was you. very sorry to hear about the bent metal, but immensely glad that you are ok. good prep and safety, never compromise either, and it will do a lot to keep your body pieces attached. You did it right and the reward is your being able to post without having to type with a pencil held in your teeth.
Buttonwillow is, in my view, a very chameleon like circuit. It can be run in both directions, and is a very different beast not only CW versus CCW, but also depending on the speed you carry. for those not familiar with the track, but looking at a map, coming down the front straight you carry a ton of speed in fifth gear, then have to brake pretty hard and downshift to negotiate the Sunset turn.....and then hard on it down a good sized straight section to the north, gear up to fifth again, and into the esses, followed by a sweeper to the left. The balance of the car is hard to keep as you load and unload back and forth, side to side, finishing with a very short braking zone and downshift before turn in to the sweeper, and it really does not take much at the limit to really put you out side the handling limits where you are just along as an observer. For a novice driver at much lower speeds it is not much challenge at all. It just is so complex that you don't even consider blasting through there. But for the driver who works the car, can make it dance, it is a supreme skill test. Done well it is a magical feeling through there. Alas, it is so unforgiving because it is not just execution of one lateral move, but a series of five of them, and the faster you go, the closer to perfection you must be.....and if you just miss one you have to back of big time instantly, and maybe you can save it and get through. Maybe. The track changes so much depending on skill levels, with quantumly increasing difficulty for increasing velocities. It is a sneaky section, not unlike Turn 6 at laguna seca, or turn 9 at Willow Springs.....seemingly benign at first glance, but truly vicious at higher speeds.
The lost hill is another tough one going CCW, where you almost get air time over the crest, and any lateral momentum is going to throw the rear end hard to the right and shoot you back across the track to the left towards another wall. Unless you slide off to the right and catch a wheel and flip. Sunrise is a diminishing radius turn that has similar nasty ambitions towards you and your car if you slip off to the left. With roughly 23 turns and lots of gearing changes and braking, that circuit puts a premium on execution of many techniques smoothly and quickly, or you get all tangled up and out of shape. I come out of the car dripping in sweat every time.
My compliments to both your attitude and courage in facing this adversity, but also in sharing it with the rest of us to protect our fragile bodies by a sobering reminder that if this can happen to a good fast driver, it is waiting for all of us who get to thinking it cannot happen to us. Good luck, and thank heavens you are ok.
Buttonwillow is, in my view, a very chameleon like circuit. It can be run in both directions, and is a very different beast not only CW versus CCW, but also depending on the speed you carry. for those not familiar with the track, but looking at a map, coming down the front straight you carry a ton of speed in fifth gear, then have to brake pretty hard and downshift to negotiate the Sunset turn.....and then hard on it down a good sized straight section to the north, gear up to fifth again, and into the esses, followed by a sweeper to the left. The balance of the car is hard to keep as you load and unload back and forth, side to side, finishing with a very short braking zone and downshift before turn in to the sweeper, and it really does not take much at the limit to really put you out side the handling limits where you are just along as an observer. For a novice driver at much lower speeds it is not much challenge at all. It just is so complex that you don't even consider blasting through there. But for the driver who works the car, can make it dance, it is a supreme skill test. Done well it is a magical feeling through there. Alas, it is so unforgiving because it is not just execution of one lateral move, but a series of five of them, and the faster you go, the closer to perfection you must be.....and if you just miss one you have to back of big time instantly, and maybe you can save it and get through. Maybe. The track changes so much depending on skill levels, with quantumly increasing difficulty for increasing velocities. It is a sneaky section, not unlike Turn 6 at laguna seca, or turn 9 at Willow Springs.....seemingly benign at first glance, but truly vicious at higher speeds.
The lost hill is another tough one going CCW, where you almost get air time over the crest, and any lateral momentum is going to throw the rear end hard to the right and shoot you back across the track to the left towards another wall. Unless you slide off to the right and catch a wheel and flip. Sunrise is a diminishing radius turn that has similar nasty ambitions towards you and your car if you slip off to the left. With roughly 23 turns and lots of gearing changes and braking, that circuit puts a premium on execution of many techniques smoothly and quickly, or you get all tangled up and out of shape. I come out of the car dripping in sweat every time.
My compliments to both your attitude and courage in facing this adversity, but also in sharing it with the rest of us to protect our fragile bodies by a sobering reminder that if this can happen to a good fast driver, it is waiting for all of us who get to thinking it cannot happen to us. Good luck, and thank heavens you are ok.