mpowers

iTrader: (7)

Actually if you have the money the new Hoosier A6 is the tire to have in 45 min or less of road racing. Faster than the 710's or anything else that has a dot stamp.
Heavy and light cars are using them while getting decent life. Well that relative to dollars any way.

Stack

Hey Mike... you gonna be in town over Father's day weekend? Feel like hosting another get-together?

dothemath

You all are making me feel much more comfortable with staying with my Michelin Pilot Sport 2's on my G35 coupe while doing track days. I have only done four so far and the cost of new rims and tires seemed out of hand for me. Apparently it is not just cost keeping me on street tires. I also like the comments of Tim since they match my own.

My favorite corners at Sebring are turns 3,4,5 which are the essess before you head down to the hairpin. I am only travelling about 45 to 50 and can feel free to let the tires squeel away, get a four wheel drift, or push the my limits a bit at a relatively slow pace with a lot of run off area. Unlike Bishop's Bend I think it is called were my comfortable speed is 90mph and there is a wall not far away. Yeah, no pushing the limits there for me

Eagle1

iTrader: (2)

And kudos to you for having a very accurate understanding of what you are doing and why! There is everything good and right about doing it just as you are because you are THINKING with your brain and not your..........

that makes you a safe driver to share the track with.

mpowers

iTrader: (7)

I don't know what is going on at this point. I'll talk with you next week about it. My motor decided it did not like the crank in it's current state and threw it out the front of the block. Hope to be building another engine this weekend.

tmak26b

I dont know about the A6, but the 710s lost its magic after one day at the track for me. For autox, they got me 2 raw FTDs + 1 runner up before I started dropping in the standing.

Safety is always #1. I always tell people to make sure they can drive the same car home at the end of the event. Once the driver understands that, I don't know why it is a bad idea to teach them how to hit the lines and drive faster. Rather than sliding the car at 80% on street tires, I would much prefer to drive like I am on rails with race tires (at 80%). I don't know about you, but I feel safer with the car pointed straight than sideways.

Experience is nice, but you also have to understand what you are doing to go far. Wayne Gretzky started playing when he was young, but so did many other NHL players. Are you saying Tie Domi with 15 years experience can match the skills of Wayne Gretzky at age 19? I don't think so. Jeff Gordon has just as many wins as Dale Earnhardt before age 40, I am sure they both spent a lot of time in the car.

Do you want this instructor to show you how to drive? Look at the lines http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hsq4YSgQy28 , there are many many examples I can show you.

This is like debating about VDC/DSC or whatever you want to call it. Some people swears by it, but I personally hate it.

Stack

What I'm saying is, there's a difference between teaching someone to drive faster and recommending they use stickier tires to drive faster!!!!

If thats your preference fine, but if you're promoting the use of sticky tires to keep someone from sliding around, then you are doing them and our sport a gross disservice.

I'm not sure how we got off on this tangent, if I caused it, sorry... I certainly didn't mean to imply that natural talent doesn't mean anything, we're human. What I was saying is that there are probably countless Wayne Gretsky's out there who we'll never know about because of circumstance and lack of proper guidance, support, and INSTRUCTION!!!

LOL ... I sitting here wondering why you'd show a video from a rainy session, I was all about to defend the driver of the Z because it was in the rain. Then I made the connection that it was you, and you were talking about the RX-8 driver right? Not that it matters... I still don't see how the video is relevant in any way?

BTW... have you driven anywhere beside Shenandoah? Seems like an autocross track to me, which means your mindset makes a little more sense. I wouldn't want to be sliding around much there either with as many walls to hit (but I'd just drive it at 6/10ths and work on perfecting my line).

Kolia

iTrader: (2)

That video was puzzling for me too.

What were we supposed to see?

If someone get pissed off by a driver trying to figure out the wet line at a race track (testing off-the-line grip?), he has serious issues with his own self control.

I thought Tmak26b was an instructor? Where's the student learning the wet line?

I don't know where the comparison to top athlete came from either. But having dealt with the best drivers in the world while working in Europe, I can only say these guys are always driving. The amount of work they do is baffling. Natural talent helps to get started, but it won't bring you to the top if you don't work hard...

tmak26b

What I am saying is that people can also learn on race tires, I don't mean you have to show that to someone who has no idea on how to drive. I think they can do it once they understand the risk and demonstrate proper car control. It could be his/her fifth track date or 50th track day, you have to look at the driver before you make a decision.

For every undiscovered superstar, there is a player that stick around the league for many years and not being able to archieve anything.

Do you not notice the "instructor" line around the carosel? What I am trying to show you there are good and bad instructors. There are people who attended every school you can think of and still cant find the proper racing line. I think I have been to enough race tracks, 6 in just the Z alone, is that enough or do I not qualify to use race tires?

Kolia

iTrader: (2)

Like I said, if you're freaking out because some other guys aren't up to your own expectations, you have serious egocentric issues...

Did you talk to the guy to learn what was happening? How did he feel about having a Z taking the inside line then hit the brakes? How long has he been instructing anyways? Did you teach him the proper line later that day?

Since your making it personal, haven't you noticed you're the only one bragging about your track record and how good you are? What's your day job again? I remember you saying you sat at a desk so drop the super racer act man...

mpowers

iTrader: (7)

Here is a different take that I don't recall people mentioning (no I have not read every piece of this). Unless you’re running time trails/racing or plan on doing so in the very near future, why waste money on race tires. A competent street tire driver will slide right in driving a race tire car with little learning curve. While the other way around will cost you more to reach the same level of performance as you now richer counter part. No I don’t care who you are it will be that way.
My recommendation is save the cash, till you start competeting. Of course if your loaded go ahead a spend your money.

Mike

Stack

Of course people can learn on race tires, I don't think I ever said they couldn't. But by doing so, they are putting their car, their passenger, and other cars around them at risk, and that is uncalled for in a DE setting. If someone is gung ho about going wheel to wheel racing as fast as humanly possible, then sure, go to some race schools (not street car DEs) and learn on race tires. But he or she won't be competitive and will ball the car up quicker than someone who's come up gradually, or at best run though consumables like brakes and tires too fast.

It's comments like this that make me worry about YOUR instructing credentials. You should know there are multiple lines on a track... at least three in the most basic difference: the school/DE line, the race line, and the wet line. Within these differences there are a multitude of other lines based on a multitude of factors, not the least of which are car type, experience, and TIRES!!

To give you an idea... we generally won't even consider a driver for a spot on our instructor roster until they have at least 30 events... not 30 days... 30 events AND that they have shown their instructors a propensity for safety, knowledge of technique and theory, and a good attitude. At that point, we still put them through our own instructor evaluation clinic (even if they have credentials from other groups to instruct).

That depends... how many times have you run on each track? One or two times on a track, IMO, does not warrant the use of race compound tires. I don't think you can learn a track completely in that amount of time in a DE setting, especially early in a driving career, and especially if someone has been "promoted" to solo or instructor status too soon.

Kolia

iTrader: (2)

Oh, back on topic now

I see your point. But as far as cost goes, a set of Toyo's RA1 isn't that expensive and might end up cheaper to run than a dual use sport street tire.

For example, my 5Zigen 17in wheels with RA1 setup was paid for in the first season I got them. The tires lasted my whole season as I'm pretty "gentle" (ie not punishing them enough... hehe). This season might be different.

The main reason I got them thought, was to get a set of tires that would stay solid for a full 25minutes session.

PBLRacing

iTrader: (1)

My take.

I learned on R Compounds, wish I hadn't. Took me years of driving and changing to a low hp momentum car to learn what a car feels like on the edge. I am okay now, but I know that never using street tires slowed my total learning curve.

When I started teaching my daughter we started on street tires and it wasn't until her 5th event (10th day) on the SAME track that I let her put on some Toyos. She knew what it was like to get close to the edge because we had pushed (and passed) the edge many times with the street tires.

Now personally, when I want to have "fun" on the track I actually enjoy using some good high performance street tires. Tires squealing, car sliding, brake - throttle - steering inputs to keep the car going where I want it to. Fun!

When I want to go fast, I put on the race tires and go for it. The car doesn't slide near as much but it goes faster.

As an instructor, I prefer to have my student on street tires. I am safer that way.

mpowers

iTrader: (7)

You know Kolia I alsmost mentioned the ra1's, but their too close to a race tire. But you are correct if you want a very (I do mean very) near race tire that give great performance over a life span they are hard to beat.

Kolia

iTrader: (2)

I almost feel like strapping street tires on next time...

Almost... hehe

first350

iTrader: (24)

I think the intial cost is high when getting a 2nd set of rims and R-comps, but for me, it was worth the $$...I wore out my OE tires in less than 6K miles with only a few track events (I was running double groups ).

From the sound of it, I probably went to R-comps too early...on street tires, I felt comfotable to push the car in 70-80% of the corners, but some of the higher speed corners (+80 MPH) I was still timid . With the R-comps, I felt like all the corners I was comfortable w/ on street tires, I was still able to push on R-comps...but the faster turns still had lots of margin. (Part of my fear w/ the +80 MPH turns was less w/ finding the edge of grip of the OE tires, but more of the speed and what would happen if I lost the rear end...sounds like the next set of tires for HPDE should be street tires so I can more safely work on those high speed corners)

*I also autoX alot...I think that's helped w/ learning over/under steer feedback from the car and how to recover from that; but those speeds are much lower. I've used my street tires for autoX as well as my dedicated autoX Hankook R-comps...while the R-comps are light years faster and have tons of more grip, the car feels much more twitchy and I've got to be really quick to ensure my rear end doesn't fly out.

(I think AutoX is a great place for ppl interetsed in HPDE events to go to first...they can learn how to read the car's feedback, how to control and recover from under/over steer all in a more safe atmosphere [less objects to hit, slower speed])

Tim Mahoney

iTrader: (3)

Good Point.

The BMW and (I think) PCA clubs REQUIRE attendence to their "skid school" driver training prior to your 1st track event. It is an excellent reality check and a lot of fun. I recommended it to a friend who I thought would enjoy the HPDE experience with his Porsche. He said that he struggled to master the over/understeer skid pad exercises and was confused by the instructor input. I told him he'd better take that course again before getting on the track, because the penalty is too high if you don't "get it". He never went back. The 1 day course a well spent filter to keep the unaware off the track.

tmak26b

How is that putting someone in danger? As I said, you have to find the right person. You can have idiots crashing on street and race tires, it really doesn't matter. Idiots will always be around. Did you count how many accidents took place on street and how many on race tires?

Multiple lines at the track.... If you think running ON and OFF the banking, you might want to question yourself instead of me. If you can't even see a person jumping up and down on the banking, you really shouldn't question about other people's driving. You can take experience out of the equation as it was the "instructor" group. I don't care what car or tires you have. If you cant even hit the correct line pushing 50%, you really shouldn't call yourself an instructor.

I applaud you for testing individual instructors rather than just going by track day experience, just because someone goes every other week doesn't make them a good driver.

This is your opinion, I honestly do respect it. I just don't agree with it 100%. This is like the VDC/DSC debate, no one wins.

Just to answer your question, I have roughly 24 days at the six tracks with just the Z in 2.5 years. I log about 75-100 miles on each day, so is 2000+ miles on the track good enough for you? This is not including my days with the Miata and RX-7. The video you saw was my first time at Shenandoah in the Z, I went with slicks and never had a problem until it started pouring. I was only at 85% too, the extra 15% is reserved for urgent use

betamotorsports

iTrader: (1)

I think there's some confusion between instructing a beginner and instructing and intermediate driver. With the beginner I think we all agree that its important to keep them out of trouble until we (as instructors) start to see self control, some understanding of car behavior, and some understanding of the track environment. At this level of instruction the tire really deosn't matter because a good instructor will keep the student below the limits of the car and the tire.

Once a student progresses beyond the basic beginner into a student that can be "trusted" then I consider them an intermediate student. As aluded to above, one of the important things is that an intermediate student needs to get comfortable with the car moving around on the tires. Street tires help in that respect, not so much from their overall lower grip, but because of the large slip angles that allow a safer exploration of the limits of grip. There's a broad area where the student can go over the tire's limit and still have time to recover. Street tires are also forgiving of a sloppy or slow recovery and reduce the occurance of tank slappers.

Students who are not comfortable with a car moving around on the tires tend to drive below the car and tires limits. They tend to induce understeer when the tires limits are reached because it feels safer even though the tire is working well at that limit. These student have built a barrier to going faster and its a hard barrier to break through.

Just last weekend I spent about an hour coaching a Solo2 driver who has trophied a couple times at the Nats but never won (why he asked me to coach is a mystery, but hey, I'll offer my opinions to anyone). He has a "fear" of letting the rear of the car step out and tends to drive his car tight. He is a very smooth and fast driver but he needed to loosen up the car via his driving to get that last little bit of aggressiveness.

He started out on DOT-R tires and is a classic example of what I described above.