Stack

From a different thread which I inadvertently highjacked...

No you don't have to change...

I just think your definition of "works" is skewed... above you say:
It's comments like this that make me cringe... you are thinking about it all wrong. Yes, the limit is SO much higher, but the threshold between the limit and disaster is SO much shorter that until you have the knowledge base to know what to do in that short period of time, or better yet, to NOT be in that situation in the first place, you aren't ready for R-compound tires!

So what happens when you over overcook a turn? Your front tires will have grip, so you "make" the turn, but your so front loaded the rear snaps away on you. Or... you go into a fast sweeper (like turn 9 at Roebling Road). With your R-compounds you take the turn faster than you should, so you turn in a little early (a very natural tendency for most people). The tires grip... woohoo! Now you're cookin... but wait. Since you turned in early, you're gonna run out of track at track-out. But I've got R-compunds! you say... so you hang on to it instead of driving off like a good DE driver. You drop two wheels off and then try to bring it back on track because I've got R-compounds! They've got all the grip in the world!. Well guess what happens when you bring that back on track...
In the words of Emeril... BAM!! nose first into the inside concrete pit wall, the only wall to hit at Roebling Road.

Plain and simple, until you can drive your car on street tires to their maximum, consistently, and safely... there's no need for r-comps. When I say their maximum, I don't mean you're tearing them up every three sessions... that doesn't mean you're so good you're literally driving the wheels off the car... it just means you're over-driving the tires. Until you know exactly why, the only thing you'll do with r-comps is over-drive them at higher speeds. And when you do suddenly find their limits, it won't be pretty.

Yes, they are faster... no one will deny that. But I dare say that in equal cars, a driver who's taken their time and learned on street tires, THEN moves up to r-comps will be seconds faster than someone who's spent the same amount of time on only r-compound tires. This is because the first driver's technique and car control will be so much better, and finely tuned, that he or she will be able to use that r-comp tire to its absolute full potential without overdriving it.

Promoting the use of R-compound tires early in someone's driving progression only leads to masked mistakes and poor driving technique.

kwiker

iTrader: (17)

Good post!

six3mike

iTrader: (19)

I agree. People use to tell me to get R compounds when I first started racing but I wanted to see how good I drove the car with street tires. When I finally drove with R compounds I could definately tell a big difference. Which I dont think I would of noticed as much had I started on R compounds.

Eagle1

iTrader: (2)

Excellent presentation on the issue, for both performance and SAFETY!

DriveI65

I autocross and run events that are just for fun (no points) on street tires to see what bad habits I've picked up. I believe it helps when you go back to Rs.

sfarrah

iTrader: (4)

Nice post Stacy. When a hoosier lets go, there's not much warning at all! If you don't know how to control it, most likely the driver is screwed.

first350

iTrader: (24)

I also agree w/ Stacy...if you're looking for short term performance, an R-compound can w/ your times, but you'll be much more likely to get into serious trouble and in the long run, you're driving skills will not improve as much. (In AutoX, the dangers are less, but gaining driver skills is key!)

IMO, the OE tries were great to learn on - they had predictable and easy to anticipate traction...I had come from driving a miata, where coming out of corners, it was WOT...in the Z, the OE tires helped to teach me to use more throttle modulation to keep the rear end from coming out and to learn how the Z 'felt' when the rear end was getting loose.

Motormouth

iTrader: (44)

another though and please let me know if I am right,

R compounds require warm up and have a 'window' of temperature performance, so if you do not know what that is, you will have traction issues...

sortof like trying to use track only pads for street driving, they never get up to proper temps to work right...

make sense or am I wrong?

tmak26b

Yes and no, your first outlap on your race tires are almost certain to be faster than your first outlap on your street tires. They generally take 3/4 of a lap to warm, a driver who has experience should be able to pace themselves accordingly.

tmak26b

I do agree with a lot of things you said, but I also disagree with some of them. For one, I would never tell someone new to try it. When I take people out for rides, I always remind them I am on R compounds. They shouldn't even try the things I do on them with their own car. Two, I don't recommend it to someone who has trouble driving the car. It is just plain stupid to have someone use faster tires when they have trouble finding their lines. The people who can benefit the most are the ones who have experience in driving on the track. People who know how to hit all the apexes and are fast on street tires should move up if they want to do more. It doesn't matter if they have 3 track days or 30 days, they should do it if they are ready. Everyone is different, you should look at them before you say if they are ready or not. Also for someone who can push a car fast, street tires can be hazardous because they slide way too much. Also they can be hazardous as they build up too much heat. If a drivercan control a car on street tires, they should be able to do the same thing on race tires.

Kolia

iTrader: (2)

You are right with slick tires. These have narrow operating temperatures.

Most of us are using "street R comp" tires that are dot legal (barely!) like the Toyo RA1, Hoosiers R6, Nitto, Michelin Cup etc. These have a relatively broad range of operating temperature (140-170F) and aren't too hard to keep hot.

Depending on the track temperature and other factors, they'll take anywhere between 60 to 120 seconds to warmup.

Note that the newer AutoX oriented tires (Hoosier A6 ?) will warmup much faster but aren't for full road circuits.

Motormouth

iTrader: (44)

ah, nomenclature confusion. thanks!

Stack

What I'm getting at here, is that in addition to being fast, having a consistent and correct line (or the ability to pick up on it and be consistent quickly at any track), a driver should also be EXTREMELY confident and experienced in crisis situations. That won't happen in 3 events! It takes lots of events, and it involves pushing street tires to their limits, and being able to go across those limits and back safely.

I don't care how fast or consistent someone is... if they've never experienced a crisis situation at speed, or if they've never recovered correctly and safely from one, how they hell do you expect them to do it when they experience it at a greater clip with reduced warning when running on r-compound tires?

I should point out, that I'm not saying don't ever get R-comp tires... so here's how I see the progression should go:

1-3 track events: OEM street tires, all season, whatever is on the car as long as they are safe
3-15 minimum: Max-performance street tire Khumo V711 etc
15-whatever: Advan Neova, Azenis RT-615, G-Force KD, etc
15-whatever with competition prepared car (safety & performance): RA-1, A048, A032R, V710, Hoosier R6, etc, etc.

But like I said above... the most important thing is having the knowledge base to know what to do in any crisis situation. And you DON'T want to learn what to do in these situations on competition tires.

EDIT: This is why the argument about "not wanting to re-learn how to drive the car" doesn't hold water.

Tim Mahoney

iTrader: (3)

Hope you don't mind if I chime in as an average guy who's been there. First off, there's a huge disparity in the entry level skills of people entering this sport, just like any other. A background in autocross, ice racing, or karting is ideal, but anyone who's been on a track (pavement or dirt) on 2 wheels has an immediate advantage over the other beginners. By definition they've learned to balance a rear wheel drive vehicle at speed with the rear spinning or locked up while turning. Unlike a car, if you lose the front end on a bike there is no recovery. I believe the original poster probably fits that description.

I agree in general with Stacks above statement, but I think the "upgrade schedule" presented is conservative. If a driver demonstrates confidence, good car control skills, consistent proper lines, and is consistently using most of the available slip angle in the tires, they are ready to move on if they wish. I understand Stacks reluctance to advocate that move because he actually runs the event, and vouches for the safety of dozens people who he may have never evaluated in person.

Alternately, I also agree with Tmak that the reputed "instant breakaway" charecteristics of DOT R tires are generally overstated. Sure they don't squeal like stuck pigs at the slightest amount of slip, but they do provide audible feedback and plenty of feel through the wheel and seat as they squirm beneath you.

In the end it's a personal decision that shouldn't be taken lightly. A little common sense goes a long way.

Stack

Tim... you are right in that my schedule above is conservative, and while my role as an event organizer certainly plays into that, thats not the only reason. What this all boils down to is in this sport, which in fact has life or death consequences if something goes terribly wrong, being a little conservative goes a long way in being a little alive. Sorry if I'm all gloom and doom here, but if you look at almost all of the high-profile on (and off) track incidents over the last few years, there always seems to be one underlying issue: someone was trying too much, too soon. Of course, that's putting it extremely simply, but its true.

With everything automotive, an upgrade in one part of the car creates a compromise somewhere else. This includes the driver.

Which brings up another point... that range of events l listed is assuming DE events with quality in-car instruction on a variety of tracks and conditions. IMO, someone who only does three or four events and then gets bumped up to DE3 solo in NASA should take a helluva lot longer than even those numbers.

So... with that said... I've been wanting to use this emoticon for a LONG time, now's my chance:

tmak26b

Sorry, but I don't buy into your schedule at all. It's a good reference, but you can't set that in stone. As Tim said, you have to count for people's natural skills and other experiences. Wayne Gretzky didn't become the Great One from just practice, natural talent and other factors have a lot to do with it. I know people who have done DE for 10+ years and still can't find their lines, yet I have seen first timers who can dominate a car like no others. Instructors are not always the best drivers neither, I have seen many who cant even find the right lines for crying out loud. These are people who have many track day experiences and licenses from racing schools.

Stack

How is that schedule set in stone? In fact, looking back at it, its pretty damn vague.

Yes, everyone will be different, and for that reason, I think my ranges above are pretty reasonable. Your Wayne Gretsky analogy doesn't hold water. Most sport superstar arguments wouldn't because most start learning their sport at a very very young age. Take the current golden boy: Lewis Hamilton. He's not the overnight wonder some people think he is. He got where he's at by starting WITH MacLaren in their karting program in 1998. Which I think would put him starting at around age 11 (and chances are, he started even earlier than that). So yeah, there's natural talent, but that will only get you so far. No one would know who he was if he hadn't been groomed for his seat at MacLaren. (And don't get me wrong, I think he's the best thing happen to F1 in a long time.) They didn't throw him in a F1 when he was 11... they gradually brought him along and taught him everything he needed to know.

Kolia

iTrader: (2)

So what's everybody's day job here ?

Any real race car driver ? Any full time instructors ?

Personnaly, I'm just a CAD designer in the automotive industry. When I go to the track to drive, I don't care how good the other drivers are. I just want them to be safe drivers...

R-comps do give quality feed back. They wouldn't be race tires otherwise. Will a beginer driver be able to deal with that feedback quick enough to adjust his car and not get into trouble is in doubt.

It is fact that R comps are:

-Sticker.
-Allow for less slip angle.
-Have grip that drops down compariatively faster than street tires.

All that is a recipe for trouble when in the hands of a driver who hasn't learned to react appropriately and fast enough to the dynamics involved in a car driven to the limit. More speed = less reaction time.

Eagle1

iTrader: (2)

+1
Understanding as we all do that all drivers are different, and so are cars, the learning progression for each person/machine tandem is going to be different, and will also depend on the track and conditions of that track on that given day.

OK, with that out the way the first rule above all is safety.

That typically requires competent instruction for the student, taking all of the above into consideration. A solid foundation needs to be established before getting into exploration of the limits of adhesion. Conceptually, I think the first thing we want to do is learn/teach (after things like driving line, braking point, turn in point, track out point, heel/toe downshifting, etc.), is how to recognize where the limits are approaching, and why, so that the prudent driver student does not go beyond the warning signals. Some of this comes into play the very first time they take a lap, but it is often very rudimentary and inaccurate, as well as variable for the student. They need time to pick it up as a skill. The second things is how to deal with handling the car to keep it within those limits as the car begins to unsettle. The third and most difficult is how to deal with bringing the car back under control, consistently and predictably, when the limits have been exceeded.

One can actually get a lot of experience driving with street tires, and then DOT-R tires, without actually having a lot of, or certainly nowhere near enough, experience in car control/recovery. They do it, and we have experienced it, by progressing conservatively and driving "within" themselves. That is where a very large number of HPDE drivers, even in the "advanced" run groups, happen to fall. They can go fast, and have fun, but their driving skills are actually not that terrific. They just leave a fat margin between what the car can do at its limits, and what they can do as drivers. This is a conundrum that can frustrate, and frighten, instructors who climb into the car with students. I think it is why many of your more spectacular HPDE "unfortunate" events happen in the high intermediate and even advanced groups. The novices are usually sufficiently cautious that they stay within the parameters laid down by the instructors. Many intermediates and advanced class drivers are under the mistaken impression that they know what they are doing just because they have not crashed. Yet. Then they go two wheels off, fight it back to the pavement and launch cross track into a pit wall.............after several years of accident free driving. It is a percentage game that eventually catches up to many of them. I dare say that many of you reading this now, if you are honest with yourselves, recognize yourselves to be in this category.

The real "driving" comes into play when a student finally has driven enough that they recognize how and where that margin between what they are doing and what the limits are exists, and what size ithat margin is. They then have to choose whether to continue to enjoy driving within the envelope of safety.....or they want to acquire and refine the skills to bring their driving consistently closer to that "edge" all around the track, and go a LOT faster.....but SAFELY. A lot of people don't, and settle in to zooming around as their then existing skill sets permit. They are driving "safely" within the parameters of what their skills allow. Provided something unexpected does not occur. Drive long enough, and something unexpected is guaranteed to occur eventually.

This is when, in my view, a step back to the high performance street tire on a vehicle makes a lot of sense. Firstly, it slows you back down and re-introduces you to the world of slip angle etc at a very understandable level. Secondly, you get a lot of friendly feedback you may not have been used to if you were driving on DOT-R tires for some time. Thirdly, the recovery opportunity and "window" is wider and more friendly at the limits on the street tire.

Either at a driving school or your own car, you get a GOOD instructor, and you set about making that car howl in every turn, and start practicing the car control techniques you need. Using the brake and throttle to pitch and roll the weight on command, to get the car to "set" in the turn, to break it loose with both throttle and brake, countersteer and drift, etc. A good tire for this purpose is the BF Goodrich TA-KD. Bondurant uses it on their Cobra Mustangs at their school on the Firebird track down in Chandler. The advanced course down there basically gives you 10 to 11 hours of seat time in two days just pushing the limits everywhere. But if you can get a good instructor to spend a weekend with you, you can do the same thing at a weekend HPDE in your own car. I did the professional course route with a pro driver with Indy Lights experience, and it was a major eye opener to how fast you can go in a car compared to what you thought was possible. Notwithstanding that approach, I only spun out one time in two days. But the speeds became radically faster. But again, it was SAFE approach that dominates this phase of learning. At the end of this learning process, and it is more than just a weekend and involves much follow up practice, you will have narrowed that margin between where the real edge of control is and where you consistently drive, and you will have skills that reflexively come into play when you go over the edge. The difference is perhaps illustrated by the fact that you might get a bit wiggly or edgy a couple of times a session, or during the day before you get these skills, and you would remember it vividly. After you get them you get the edge at least a half dozen times each lap, and you really don't think anything special of it. It is just normal and you know where when and how it is happening and you are managing it safely. THEN you step back up to your DOT-R tires and carefully begin pushing the edges again. Same techniques, just faster and with different warning messages and quicker, more precise reactions demanded of you because the messenger is a different critter. Racing slicks are the same kind of issue...work your way up to it. And any time you get skittish or nervous about your control being absolute...step down to the next lower level of tire and practice what is giving you a challenge until you get confident and assured you know what is happening and why and how to master it, then step back up to the next higher level tire group and practice it there.

Works for me. I am not a young guy, but take the view that the years I have left, being the only ones I do have left, should not be shortened by stupidly trying to go faster than my skills will safely permit, or that the quality of life be compromised by the need to clank when I walk due to the pins and plates surgically implanted to address the damage done to myself because I was stupid. There should be no rush in the quest to go fast. If you want to be able to do it consistently safely.

Tim Mahoney

iTrader: (3)

Hey, that would be me! I consistently run my daily driver at 80% on the track. Yes I slide around a bit, but do it at my spots (low penalty corners), and have a strong self preservation instinct. I don't have the budget for either wrecking my DD or purchasing a dedicated track car & trailer. So here I sit happy to dice with the occaisional Lotus, spec Miata or STI, and glad to let the 10/10ths guys go. I find my car control skills have plateaued a bit, but that's O.K. for now. To each his own...