R-compund debate thread move...
04-27-2007, 12:40 PM
#41
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Very true, but classify someone based on their experience alone is not the right thing to do. When I did my first track event, I had already raced in short tracks, autox and hillclimbs. I could hardly call track events something 100% different.
If a driver is pushing the car hard(not at a point wreckless, I think you have to seperate the difference between hard driving and wreckless driving), street tires can create a problem as they have the tendency to slide too much and overheat very quickly. Race tires will allow the person to push the car harder without the worries I mentioned above. As far as who can use it, I think you have to look at the person before you make a judgement. My 10th event might be differnet than yours, it's just the way it is. (I did 9-10 events on race tires, the last one on street tires. I almost lost it in that one because I felt like i was on ice).
Also if we go by the 20 event to be expert theory, people should never drive a prepped car. Heck, we should all be driving Miatas as all the other cars are too fast.
If a driver is pushing the car hard(not at a point wreckless, I think you have to seperate the difference between hard driving and wreckless driving), street tires can create a problem as they have the tendency to slide too much and overheat very quickly. Race tires will allow the person to push the car harder without the worries I mentioned above. As far as who can use it, I think you have to look at the person before you make a judgement. My 10th event might be differnet than yours, it's just the way it is. (I did 9-10 events on race tires, the last one on street tires. I almost lost it in that one because I felt like i was on ice).
Also if we go by the 20 event to be expert theory, people should never drive a prepped car. Heck, we should all be driving Miatas as all the other cars are too fast.
Originally Posted by betamotorsports
I think there's some confusion between instructing a beginner and instructing and intermediate driver. With the beginner I think we all agree that its important to keep them out of trouble until we (as instructors) start to see self control, some understanding of car behavior, and some understanding of the track environment. At this level of instruction the tire really deosn't matter because a good instructor will keep the student below the limits of the car and the tire.
Once a student progresses beyond the basic beginner into a student that can be "trusted" then I consider them an intermediate student. As aluded to above, one of the important things is that an intermediate student needs to get comfortable with the car moving around on the tires. Street tires help in that respect, not so much from their overall lower grip, but because of the large slip angles that allow a safer exploration of the limits of grip. There's a broad area where the student can go over the tire's limit and still have time to recover. Street tires are also forgiving of a sloppy or slow recovery and reduce the occurance of tank slappers.
Students who are not comfortable with a car moving around on the tires tend to drive below the car and tires limits. They tend to induce understeer when the tires limits are reached because it feels safer even though the tire is working well at that limit. These student have built a barrier to going faster and its a hard barrier to break through.
Just last weekend I spent about an hour coaching a Solo2 driver who has trophied a couple times at the Nats but never won (why he asked me to coach is a mystery, but hey, I'll offer my opinions to anyone). He has a "fear" of letting the rear of the car step out and tends to drive his car tight. He is a very smooth and fast driver but he needed to loosen up the car via his driving to get that last little bit of aggressiveness.
He started out on DOT-R tires and is a classic example of what I described above.
Once a student progresses beyond the basic beginner into a student that can be "trusted" then I consider them an intermediate student. As aluded to above, one of the important things is that an intermediate student needs to get comfortable with the car moving around on the tires. Street tires help in that respect, not so much from their overall lower grip, but because of the large slip angles that allow a safer exploration of the limits of grip. There's a broad area where the student can go over the tire's limit and still have time to recover. Street tires are also forgiving of a sloppy or slow recovery and reduce the occurance of tank slappers.
Students who are not comfortable with a car moving around on the tires tend to drive below the car and tires limits. They tend to induce understeer when the tires limits are reached because it feels safer even though the tire is working well at that limit. These student have built a barrier to going faster and its a hard barrier to break through.
Just last weekend I spent about an hour coaching a Solo2 driver who has trophied a couple times at the Nats but never won (why he asked me to coach is a mystery, but hey, I'll offer my opinions to anyone). He has a "fear" of letting the rear of the car step out and tends to drive his car tight. He is a very smooth and fast driver but he needed to loosen up the car via his driving to get that last little bit of aggressiveness.
He started out on DOT-R tires and is a classic example of what I described above.
04-27-2007, 01:23 PM
#42
I kinda wonder if some people just like to occasionally go to the track who know the basics who don't really want to drive 9/10 or 10/10, but are perfectly happy driving at 7/10 or 8/10 and like the extra confident feeling and feedback of a more dedicated race tire as well as being able to make full use of traction in the lower gears
I know everyone wants to go out there and become a better and faster driver, but maybe some people just want a place they can push the car without trying to become a race car driver in training
bad habbits or not, it only matters if you're doing lots of road course events and really have a goal to win all the races
I know everyone wants to go out there and become a better and faster driver, but maybe some people just want a place they can push the car without trying to become a race car driver in training
bad habbits or not, it only matters if you're doing lots of road course events and really have a goal to win all the races
04-27-2007, 01:26 PM
#43
That's exactly what HPDEs are for. No one can "win" at an HPDE event and its just for having fun and driving your car at your limit. Time trials and wheel-to-wheel events are actual racing and folks contemplating those kinds of events will spend a lot more time driving their car at its limit, not the driver's.
04-27-2007, 02:22 PM
#44
Nobody said only track event counted as experience ! Lol 
I think the driver is the most customisable mod in a car and that he/she should adjust his driving to fit the vehicle.
There is still fun to be had and things to learn driving a car with street tire.
I think the driver is the most customisable mod in a car and that he/she should adjust his driving to fit the vehicle.
There is still fun to be had and things to learn driving a car with street tire.
Originally Posted by tmak26b
Very true, but classify someone based on their experience alone is not the right thing to do. When I did my first track event, I had already raced in short tracks, autox and hillclimbs. I could hardly call track events something 100% different.
If a driver is pushing the car hard(not at a point wreckless, I think you have to seperate the difference between hard driving and wreckless driving), street tires can create a problem as they have the tendency to slide too much and overheat very quickly. Race tires will allow the person to push the car harder without the worries I mentioned above. As far as who can use it, I think you have to look at the person before you make a judgement. My 10th event might be differnet than yours, it's just the way it is. (I did 9-10 events on race tires, the last one on street tires. I almost lost it in that one because I felt like i was on ice).
Also if we go by the 20 event to be expert theory, people should never drive a prepped car. Heck, we should all be driving Miatas as all the other cars are too fast.
If a driver is pushing the car hard(not at a point wreckless, I think you have to seperate the difference between hard driving and wreckless driving), street tires can create a problem as they have the tendency to slide too much and overheat very quickly. Race tires will allow the person to push the car harder without the worries I mentioned above. As far as who can use it, I think you have to look at the person before you make a judgement. My 10th event might be differnet than yours, it's just the way it is. (I did 9-10 events on race tires, the last one on street tires. I almost lost it in that one because I felt like i was on ice).
Also if we go by the 20 event to be expert theory, people should never drive a prepped car. Heck, we should all be driving Miatas as all the other cars are too fast.
04-27-2007, 04:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Kolia
Nobody said only track event counted as experience ! Lol
I think the driver is the most customisable mod in a car and that he/she should adjust his driving to fit the vehicle.
There is still fun to be had and things to learn driving a car with street tire.
I think the driver is the most customisable mod in a car and that he/she should adjust his driving to fit the vehicle.
There is still fun to be had and things to learn driving a car with street tire.
04-27-2007, 05:55 PM
#46
Originally Posted by tmak26b
Sure, no one is denying that neither. By the way, snow tires are even more predictable than your OEM tires. Why not go with that?
Seriously, a winter tire's operating temperature are too low for lapping in summer. Thread delamination would be a serious hazard...
04-27-2007, 06:36 PM
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Originally Posted by tmak26b
How is that putting someone in danger? As I said, you have to find the right person.
You can have idiots crashing on street and race tires, it really doesn't matter. Idiots will always be around.
Did you count how many accidents took place on street and how many on race tires?
Multiple lines at the track.... If you think running ON and OFF the banking, you might want to question yourself instead of me. If you can't even see a person jumping up and down on the banking, you really shouldn't question about other people's driving. You can take experience out of the equation as it was the "instructor" group. I don't care what car or tires you have. If you cant even hit the correct line pushing 50%, you really shouldn't call yourself an instructor.
This is your opinion, I honestly do respect it. I just don't agree with it 100%. This is like the VDC/DSC debate, no one wins.
Just to answer your question, I have roughly 24 days at the six tracks with just the Z in 2.5 years. I log about 75-100 miles on each day, so is 2000+ miles on the track good enough for you? This is not including my days with the Miata and RX-7. The video you saw was my first time at Shenandoah in the Z, I went with slicks and never had a problem until it started pouring. I was only at 85% too, the extra 15% is reserved for urgent use
All I'm really asking here, is that when replying to someone who is asking how to make his or her car better... why not get some more info first? Find out what their experience level is (cause you know as well as I do, chances are they are relatively new to the sport.) And if it seems to be the only thing left for them to do, lets ask them to talk to their instructors. The people who've ridden in the passenger seats are ultimately the only ones who can tell someone how to make their lap times quicker.
I'm certainly not here to police every post on here for how I think things should be done, but can't we all agree that as this sport grows, we need to do everything we can to keep each other safe? Prudence, patience, and moderation on track is the best way for that.
04-27-2007, 06:47 PM
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Originally Posted by sentry65
I kinda wonder if some people just like to occasionally go to the track who know the basics who don't really want to drive 9/10 or 10/10, but are perfectly happy driving at 7/10 or 8/10 and like the extra confident feeling and feedback of a more dedicated race tire as well as being able to make full use of traction in the lower gears
I know everyone wants to go out there and become a better and faster driver, but maybe some people just want a place they can push the car without trying to become a race car driver in training
bad habbits or not, it only matters if you're doing lots of road course events and really have a goal to win all the races
I know everyone wants to go out there and become a better and faster driver, but maybe some people just want a place they can push the car without trying to become a race car driver in training
bad habbits or not, it only matters if you're doing lots of road course events and really have a goal to win all the races
All of my posts and rants are in the context of driver's education events, and sometimes I like to rant about competitive events that don't require certain safety equipment.
But ultimately, driver's ed events are just that... and its very frustrating to an instructor, who's there to teach, when someone is not there to learn.
I'm not here to change anyone's mind who's already made it up... I'd just like to catch the few novices who haven't made up their mind yet. And when I see a post promoting hardware upgrades over software upgrades without getting all the info first, I'm gonna speak up until someone tells me not to. If any of you ever make to our events, you'll find out what those who have already know... we've got some of the best drivers on the east coast, in all run groups. And I'm not too humble to claim it has a LOT to do with the type of people our organization attracts (and the ones it deters).
04-27-2007, 08:01 PM
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Stack, thnx for your comments...sounds like your club would be for me - I love going out for Track days, but the best part is walking away w/ better driving skills.
04-27-2007, 10:22 PM
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In most of the events I attended this past year. I recalled a Miata on Azenis. Street tires on an Audi and Legacy. Kuhmo MX on a Matrix. Race tires on a kit car and a Cobra that nailed the wall. In all honesty, I think it is more 50/50. I don't think there is a clear answer to this one. You might think other wise, but I don't buy it. I can say one thing though, most of the people that crashed on street tires were pushing them way too fast. I think it can happen to any tires.
Who in their right mind would jump in and out of the banking in a carousel? I hope you said it because you have never done a carousel turn. You know if he/she was going any faster, there is a good chance the car would fly off the track. If you think the correct line is to jump on and off the banking, I suggest you look at this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sBvZ4M_WS4o , now look at the rx-8 again http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hsq4YSgQy28 . I completely agree safe instructors is crucial and is the most important quality of any instructor, but I think it is also important to have an instructor who can drive a car properly.
As far as my track experience, let's just say I have the videos below and many others. I can show you videos from great to bad drivers and street or R compounds. I have personally experienced it and know what they feel like. I think I have enough to backup my driving...
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...17556823&hl=en
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-BfLpfJxEQ
You like your events a certain way, and I like mine a little different. If you think you are right, that is absolutely fine. I never said I wanted someone who cant drive to use race rubber, I simply said they can use one if they can demonstrate they can handle it. I look at their skills as well as their experience, not just one.
Who in their right mind would jump in and out of the banking in a carousel? I hope you said it because you have never done a carousel turn. You know if he/she was going any faster, there is a good chance the car would fly off the track. If you think the correct line is to jump on and off the banking, I suggest you look at this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sBvZ4M_WS4o , now look at the rx-8 again http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hsq4YSgQy28 . I completely agree safe instructors is crucial and is the most important quality of any instructor, but I think it is also important to have an instructor who can drive a car properly.
As far as my track experience, let's just say I have the videos below and many others. I can show you videos from great to bad drivers and street or R compounds. I have personally experienced it and know what they feel like. I think I have enough to backup my driving...
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...17556823&hl=en
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-BfLpfJxEQ
You like your events a certain way, and I like mine a little different. If you think you are right, that is absolutely fine. I never said I wanted someone who cant drive to use race rubber, I simply said they can use one if they can demonstrate they can handle it. I look at their skills as well as their experience, not just one.
Originally Posted by Stack
You are absolutely right... you do have to find the right person... but I don't want someone to find out the wrong way that they aren't that person.
I certainly can't argue with you on that point
No, have you?... off the top of my head though, of the few accidents with damage at our events, I can only think of one that was not on r-compound tires.
OK... I think you should really watch your video again. The driver drives around the first part without waiver at the top of the banking, then apexes at the bottom, and exits track right towards what looks to me to either be the apex of the next right hand bend, or he's being courteous and has gotten over to let you by.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion... and for that matter, at our events, we don't even STOP people from going out in lower-level groups with enhanced performance features. But we will make it very clear that we don't approve and we will keep a close eye on them. And you better believe they'll have a strong instructor with them, who will not be afraid to upset someone by parking them if they are driving over their heads in an unsafe manner.
I'd like to see some more video... some stuff not in the wet on slicks... I seem to remember you posting a video or two on our club site at Triangle Z Club. This has never been about YOU being or not being on slicks... whats done is done for you, I know I'm not going to change that. But as much as you say now that you're not promoting the use of r-comps to beginners or novices, your actions on the boards say otherwise.
All I'm really asking here, is that when replying to someone who is asking how to make his or her car better... why not get some more info first? Find out what their experience level is (cause you know as well as I do, chances are they are relatively new to the sport.) And if it seems to be the only thing left for them to do, lets ask them to talk to their instructors. The people who've ridden in the passenger seats are ultimately the only ones who can tell someone how to make their lap times quicker.
I'm certainly not here to police every post on here for how I think things should be done, but can't we all agree that as this sport grows, we need to do everything we can to keep each other safe? Prudence, patience, and moderation on track is the best way for that.
I certainly can't argue with you on that point
No, have you?... off the top of my head though, of the few accidents with damage at our events, I can only think of one that was not on r-compound tires.
OK... I think you should really watch your video again. The driver drives around the first part without waiver at the top of the banking, then apexes at the bottom, and exits track right towards what looks to me to either be the apex of the next right hand bend, or he's being courteous and has gotten over to let you by.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion... and for that matter, at our events, we don't even STOP people from going out in lower-level groups with enhanced performance features. But we will make it very clear that we don't approve and we will keep a close eye on them. And you better believe they'll have a strong instructor with them, who will not be afraid to upset someone by parking them if they are driving over their heads in an unsafe manner.
I'd like to see some more video... some stuff not in the wet on slicks... I seem to remember you posting a video or two on our club site at Triangle Z Club. This has never been about YOU being or not being on slicks... whats done is done for you, I know I'm not going to change that. But as much as you say now that you're not promoting the use of r-comps to beginners or novices, your actions on the boards say otherwise.
All I'm really asking here, is that when replying to someone who is asking how to make his or her car better... why not get some more info first? Find out what their experience level is (cause you know as well as I do, chances are they are relatively new to the sport.) And if it seems to be the only thing left for them to do, lets ask them to talk to their instructors. The people who've ridden in the passenger seats are ultimately the only ones who can tell someone how to make their lap times quicker.
I'm certainly not here to police every post on here for how I think things should be done, but can't we all agree that as this sport grows, we need to do everything we can to keep each other safe? Prudence, patience, and moderation on track is the best way for that.
04-28-2007, 03:33 AM
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Originally Posted by tmak26b
In most of the events I attended this past year. I recalled a Miata on Azenis. Street tires on an Audi and Legacy. Kuhmo MX on a Matrix. Race tires on a kit car and a Cobra that nailed the wall. In all honesty, I think it is more 50/50. I don't think there is a clear answer to this one. You might think other wise, but I don't buy it. I can say one thing though, most of the people that crashed on street tires were pushing them way too fast. I think it can happen to any tires.
Who in their right mind would jump in and out of the banking in a carousel? I hope you said it because you have never done a carousel turn. You know if he/she was going any faster, there is a good chance the car would fly off the track. If you think the correct line is to jump on and off the banking, I suggest you look at this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sBvZ4M_WS4o , now look at the rx-8 again http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hsq4YSgQy28 . I completely agree safe instructors is crucial and is the most important quality of any instructor, but I think it is also important to have an instructor who can drive a car properly.
As far as my track experience, let's just say I have the videos below and many others. I can show you videos from great to bad drivers and street or R compounds. I have personally experienced it and know what they feel like. I think I have enough to backup my driving...
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...17556823&hl=en
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-BfLpfJxEQ
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...17556823&hl=en
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-BfLpfJxEQ
I for one can't tell a damn thing if all your videos only show these small sections of a lap... and to compound things, they are so washed out that we can't see anything anyway (I know thats not really your fault, I'm just sayin...). And I'm not asking for examples of good and bad drivers. You obviously haven't yet grasped what I've been trying to say all along... (all other things being equal) that a driver thats worked his or her way gradually up to r-compound tires IS a better driver than if they had not taken the time to fully learn their limits (car and driver) on street tires. And by limits, I don't just mean they've found they constantly go off track or ruin street tires. Moving to sticky tires for this reason only means they'll do the same thing only faster.
Thats all I'm saying. Of course the time frame for this process is going to be different for everyone... but usually correlates to the quality of instruction and seat time.
I think overall this has been a quality debate... I've enjoyed it
04-28-2007, 05:27 PM
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Without beating on the same topic, I am not going to talk about the whole R tires for now. We have different opinions, let's just leave it at that. I don't think there is a right or wrong answer to it.
As far as the video, I just hope you didn't clearly see it and you are not familar with the track. At the 54 sec mark, he/she started putting two right side wheels over the 20 degree banking. Do you know how dangerous that is? The driver was lucky that he/she was going 25mph, else there would be some serious bottoming out there. If the driver goes fast enough, it is going to pop a right turn or even flip over. Heck I dropped into the banking too late in one of the lap, next thing you know I hear a scrap under my car. At the 56-57 mark, the driver put two left side on the flat part of the track. It's hard to see in the video, but you know how violent it is to drop the car onto the flat like that? Do you ever see NASCAR guys coming from the banking onto the flats like that? It's an accident waiting to happen. Of course it doesn't matter when you are driving half the speed as most driver. I wanted to say something, but there are a lot of politics behind these things. As a new guy to the club, I am not going out there to rat out their "regulars". I just stay away from them and move on, at least they move and they dont crash anyone. The person I do feel bad for is the student, I absolutely hate instructors giving bad instructions. And please don't get me wrong, they were all nice people and they had some good people there. I just saw a few suspect instructors that's all. Other than that, it was a safe fun event. I would make the long drive to go back, I even helped a 350Z owner out too. Let me ask you this, would you like your instructors to have a first lap spin on TWO different session? Also would you want your instructors to run at a 30 sec lap slower than everyone?
As far as driving potential, I only push to whatever I am comfortable. Unlike most people, I have to drive home in the same car. So there is only so far I can go before I just call it a day. I would hope I am driving more than 80% of myself. If I can't drive 90-95% and be safe, I shouldn't call myself an instructor. Heck, ideally shouldn't an instructor be able to go 99% and still be within control?
As far as the video, I just hope you didn't clearly see it and you are not familar with the track. At the 54 sec mark, he/she started putting two right side wheels over the 20 degree banking. Do you know how dangerous that is? The driver was lucky that he/she was going 25mph, else there would be some serious bottoming out there. If the driver goes fast enough, it is going to pop a right turn or even flip over. Heck I dropped into the banking too late in one of the lap, next thing you know I hear a scrap under my car. At the 56-57 mark, the driver put two left side on the flat part of the track. It's hard to see in the video, but you know how violent it is to drop the car onto the flat like that? Do you ever see NASCAR guys coming from the banking onto the flats like that? It's an accident waiting to happen. Of course it doesn't matter when you are driving half the speed as most driver. I wanted to say something, but there are a lot of politics behind these things. As a new guy to the club, I am not going out there to rat out their "regulars". I just stay away from them and move on, at least they move and they dont crash anyone. The person I do feel bad for is the student, I absolutely hate instructors giving bad instructions. And please don't get me wrong, they were all nice people and they had some good people there. I just saw a few suspect instructors that's all. Other than that, it was a safe fun event. I would make the long drive to go back, I even helped a 350Z owner out too. Let me ask you this, would you like your instructors to have a first lap spin on TWO different session? Also would you want your instructors to run at a 30 sec lap slower than everyone?
As far as driving potential, I only push to whatever I am comfortable. Unlike most people, I have to drive home in the same car. So there is only so far I can go before I just call it a day. I would hope I am driving more than 80% of myself. If I can't drive 90-95% and be safe, I shouldn't call myself an instructor. Heck, ideally shouldn't an instructor be able to go 99% and still be within control?
Originally Posted by Stack
Of course there's not a clear answer to this... I think we've exhausted the ability to rationally debate for now
Look... I don't know what video you're watching, but the one I'm seeing shows the guy clearly take a constant line into the carousel, he lets the car drift down towards the bottom and appears to create an apex for himself that sets him up to exit the carousel at EXACTLY THE SAME SPOT you and the miata in the other video exit the turn. You're acting like the guy is all over the place when in visual fact, he is not. I'm not saying its the correct line for the carousel, but to use that instance as an example to show his lack of skill is ridiculous. DID you in fact ask him about it as someone else suggested? Maybe he was experimenting with a new line? Maybe he was simply trying to straighten out the turn in the wet? There are just too many variables to come to that kind of conclusion. If you thought he was so bad, did you say anything to the event organizers?
I'm not saying, nor have I ever said that you were not a competent, safe, and probably talented driver... what I'm saying is you haven't, and probably never will, realize your true potential as a driver. I can only hope that you do as you say and you stay within 80% and you stay safe.
I for one can't tell a damn thing if all your videos only show these small sections of a lap... and to compound things, they are so washed out that we can't see anything anyway (I know thats not really your fault, I'm just sayin...). And I'm not asking for examples of good and bad drivers. You obviously haven't yet grasped what I've been trying to say all along... (all other things being equal) that a driver thats worked his or her way gradually up to r-compound tires IS a better driver than if they had not taken the time to fully learn their limits (car and driver) on street tires. And by limits, I don't just mean they've found they constantly go off track or ruin street tires. Moving to sticky tires for this reason only means they'll do the same thing only faster.
Thats all I'm saying. Of course the time frame for this process is going to be different for everyone... but usually correlates to the quality of instruction and seat time.
I think overall this has been a quality debate... I've enjoyed it
Look... I don't know what video you're watching, but the one I'm seeing shows the guy clearly take a constant line into the carousel, he lets the car drift down towards the bottom and appears to create an apex for himself that sets him up to exit the carousel at EXACTLY THE SAME SPOT you and the miata in the other video exit the turn. You're acting like the guy is all over the place when in visual fact, he is not. I'm not saying its the correct line for the carousel, but to use that instance as an example to show his lack of skill is ridiculous. DID you in fact ask him about it as someone else suggested? Maybe he was experimenting with a new line? Maybe he was simply trying to straighten out the turn in the wet? There are just too many variables to come to that kind of conclusion. If you thought he was so bad, did you say anything to the event organizers?
I'm not saying, nor have I ever said that you were not a competent, safe, and probably talented driver... what I'm saying is you haven't, and probably never will, realize your true potential as a driver. I can only hope that you do as you say and you stay within 80% and you stay safe.
I for one can't tell a damn thing if all your videos only show these small sections of a lap... and to compound things, they are so washed out that we can't see anything anyway (I know thats not really your fault, I'm just sayin...). And I'm not asking for examples of good and bad drivers. You obviously haven't yet grasped what I've been trying to say all along... (all other things being equal) that a driver thats worked his or her way gradually up to r-compound tires IS a better driver than if they had not taken the time to fully learn their limits (car and driver) on street tires. And by limits, I don't just mean they've found they constantly go off track or ruin street tires. Moving to sticky tires for this reason only means they'll do the same thing only faster.
Thats all I'm saying. Of course the time frame for this process is going to be different for everyone... but usually correlates to the quality of instruction and seat time.
I think overall this has been a quality debate... I've enjoyed it
04-28-2007, 06:57 PM
#53
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Originally Posted by tmak26b
As far as the video, I just hope you didn't clearly see it and you are not familar with the track. At the 54 sec mark, he/she started putting two right side wheels over the 20 degree banking. Do you know how dangerous that is? The driver was lucky that he/she was going 25mph, else there would be some serious bottoming out there. If the driver goes fast enough, it is going to pop a right turn or even flip over. Heck I dropped into the banking too late in one of the lap, next thing you know I hear a scrap under my car. At the 56-57 mark, the driver put two left side on the flat part of the track. It's hard to see in the video, but you know how violent it is to drop the car onto the flat like that? Do you ever see NASCAR guys coming from the banking onto the flats like that? It's an accident waiting to happen. Of course it doesn't matter when you are driving half the speed as most driver.
I wanted to say something, but there are a lot of politics behind these things. As a new guy to the club, I am not going out there to rat out their "regulars". I just stay away from them and move on, at least they move and they dont crash anyone. The person I do feel bad for is the student, I absolutely hate instructors giving bad instructions. And please don't get me wrong, they were all nice people and they had some good people there. I just saw a few suspect instructors that's all. Other than that, it was a safe fun event. I would make the long drive to go back, I even helped a 350Z owner out too. Let me ask you this, would you like your instructors to have a first lap spin on TWO different session? Also would you want your instructors to run at a 30 sec lap slower than everyone?
And to answer your questons, no we don't want an instructor to have 1st lap spins... but it has happened, and I'm sure it will happen again, and I'm sure it will happen to our best instructors. If it happens every event, and there is a clear pattern, we will do something about it... we HAVE done something about it. If this has something to do with the RX-8 driver, maybe you should tell us everything you saw? You're asking us to take you on your word, and this one extremely inconclusive video that he's a horrible instructor (does anyone else see what tmak is talking about?). No, I'm not familiar with that particular turn, but that is irrelevant based on that one video!! Do you have any other videos showing him in the dry? At speed? Any more than one lap?
You still haven't explained why you balked on the pass?
What group are you running with at VIR in September? Maybe I'll see you there and we can discuss these things further in person cause this typing and reading is getting us nowhere.
04-28-2007, 07:51 PM
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I read every word you wrote, so I wrote an explanation to tell you why you were wrong.
I dont have a beef with anyone, I just saw couple bad drivers. If they keep themselves out of the wall, that would be fine by me. I just feel bad for the student. I dont mean to pick on the poor RX-8 driver, I just happened to have that video uploaded. Also extremely slow (I mean really really slow) isn't against the rules, so no point of showing that.
Spinning once a while is fine by me, I made the same mistake doing the same thing. Yet, is it too much to ask the same person to NOT SPIN on the first section on the first lap in TWO straight sessions? He ended up getting stuck in the mud, causing black flag in two straight sessions. Now that I had a problem with....
I wouldn't mind sending you a video of my 20 minute session. I just can't do it for two reasons. #1 The file is way too big, they are 600MB in 352x250. #2 I also dont want it to be viewed as knock on those guys. I really have no problem with most of them, I just had problems with a few guys. (I never even met them, I just remember the car). None of them were personal , just driving issues.
I slammed on the brakes because one of the corner worker raised the yellow flag for no apparent reason. The flag disappeared at the next station, it was weird. I can show you a video in the dry, but one slight issue. I am running 20-30 sec. faster than the other driver per lap, the car disappears within one turn. I am really not BSing neither.
This is how an instructor should be , http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QEyC--u3Qr0
I am catching up to him because my car is faster. He is taking a different line, which is completely fine. His line is not the fastest, but it is perfectly fine to explore as each driver and car is different. It's a different issue if the instructor is missing the apex entirely and found some complete weird way to turn. I havent uploaded all my videos yet, I can show you some when they are available.
Not sure what group ia m running with yet, but i will do one VIR a year.
I dont have a beef with anyone, I just saw couple bad drivers. If they keep themselves out of the wall, that would be fine by me. I just feel bad for the student. I dont mean to pick on the poor RX-8 driver, I just happened to have that video uploaded. Also extremely slow (I mean really really slow) isn't against the rules, so no point of showing that.
Spinning once a while is fine by me, I made the same mistake doing the same thing. Yet, is it too much to ask the same person to NOT SPIN on the first section on the first lap in TWO straight sessions? He ended up getting stuck in the mud, causing black flag in two straight sessions. Now that I had a problem with....
I wouldn't mind sending you a video of my 20 minute session. I just can't do it for two reasons. #1 The file is way too big, they are 600MB in 352x250. #2 I also dont want it to be viewed as knock on those guys. I really have no problem with most of them, I just had problems with a few guys. (I never even met them, I just remember the car). None of them were personal , just driving issues.
I slammed on the brakes because one of the corner worker raised the yellow flag for no apparent reason. The flag disappeared at the next station, it was weird. I can show you a video in the dry, but one slight issue. I am running 20-30 sec. faster than the other driver per lap, the car disappears within one turn. I am really not BSing neither.
This is how an instructor should be , http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QEyC--u3Qr0
I am catching up to him because my car is faster. He is taking a different line, which is completely fine. His line is not the fastest, but it is perfectly fine to explore as each driver and car is different. It's a different issue if the instructor is missing the apex entirely and found some complete weird way to turn. I havent uploaded all my videos yet, I can show you some when they are available.
Not sure what group ia m running with yet, but i will do one VIR a year.
Originally Posted by Stack
You obviously didn't read a word I wrote.
If you feel that strongly about other instructor's driving, then you should say something no matter what. If you think the club 'politics' are such an issue, then you should try running with other groups. No self-respecting club would discount your observations just because you were new (providing they were legitimate concerns.)
And to answer your questons, no we don't want an instructor to have 1st lap spins... but it has happened, and I'm sure it will happen again, and I'm sure it will happen to our best instructors. If it happens every event, and there is a clear pattern, we will do something about it... we HAVE done something about it. If this has something to do with the RX-8 driver, maybe you should tell us everything you saw? You're asking us to take you on your word, and this one extremely inconclusive video that he's a horrible instructor (does anyone else see what tmak is talking about?). No, I'm not familiar with that particular turn, but that is irrelevant based on that one video!! Do you have any other videos showing him in the dry? At speed? Any more than one lap?
You still haven't explained why you balked on the pass?
What group are you running with at VIR in September? Maybe I'll see you there and we can discuss these things further in person cause this typing and reading is getting us nowhere.
If you feel that strongly about other instructor's driving, then you should say something no matter what. If you think the club 'politics' are such an issue, then you should try running with other groups. No self-respecting club would discount your observations just because you were new (providing they were legitimate concerns.)
And to answer your questons, no we don't want an instructor to have 1st lap spins... but it has happened, and I'm sure it will happen again, and I'm sure it will happen to our best instructors. If it happens every event, and there is a clear pattern, we will do something about it... we HAVE done something about it. If this has something to do with the RX-8 driver, maybe you should tell us everything you saw? You're asking us to take you on your word, and this one extremely inconclusive video that he's a horrible instructor (does anyone else see what tmak is talking about?). No, I'm not familiar with that particular turn, but that is irrelevant based on that one video!! Do you have any other videos showing him in the dry? At speed? Any more than one lap?
You still haven't explained why you balked on the pass?
What group are you running with at VIR in September? Maybe I'll see you there and we can discuss these things further in person cause this typing and reading is getting us nowhere.
04-29-2007, 06:02 AM
#55
Originally Posted by tmak26b
Rather than sliding the car at 80% on street tires, I would much prefer to drive like I am on rails with race tires (at 80%). I don't know about you, but I feel safer with the car pointed straight than sideways.
I am a little confused by this statement. Are you driving with slip angles, or just to the non-slip traction limit of the tires?
04-29-2007, 07:04 AM
#56
Originally Posted by PBLRacing
Took me years of driving and changing to a low hp momentum car to learn what a car feels like on the edge.
When I tracked the Z I used Toyo T1S's for about 20 track days then moved to R's. I frankly didn't notice much difference in control or time to recover. I probably could have switched to them much earlier. I think horsepower can get you into more trouble faster.
Last edited by zillinois; 04-29-2007 at 07:20 AM.
04-29-2007, 07:41 AM
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Originally Posted by zillinois
+1, I think a momentum car is the only sure way to teach line speed. Especially if you follow someone good. You learn fast how slow and wavering your line is. Tire grip can certainly give you a false sense of skill, but take away the horsepower and no slick in the world will make you fast. I made the switch to a momentum car last year and it is much more fun that I thought it would be and it has forced me to develop a much earlier sensitivity to line errors.
When I tracked the Z I used Toyo T1S's for about 20 track days then moved to R's. I frankly didn't notice much difference in control or time to recover. I probably could have switched to them much earlier. I think horsepower can get you into more trouble faster.
When I tracked the Z I used Toyo T1S's for about 20 track days then moved to R's. I frankly didn't notice much difference in control or time to recover. I probably could have switched to them much earlier. I think horsepower can get you into more trouble faster.
Yet, I don't think any run group is going to tell the new Z06 owner that he needs to sell his car and buy a Miata in order for him to run. Since we all know that horsepower sells cars.
I think the biggest problem with any person who doesn't have a reasonable amount of track time before they start running R's is the fact that the driver will think "I have R compounds - I should be faster" and thus the red-mist will start and we will find that driver in the dirt or wall sooner or later. This is the same phenominon I find on track with different cars "My Z06 should be faster than his Miata".
On a side note, I was talking to a friend about R-compounds the other day, we were discussing that by putting additional stresses on the car that it was not designed for, you should fatigue or wear out component at a much faster rate than just running street tires. Talking to someone new to track about this fact should keep them from buying them.
04-29-2007, 07:47 AM
#58
Having a Momentum can is also be a heck of a lot of fun. You can approach those slip limits at a lower speed, really explore the mid corner dynamics, and find the braking thresholds with a lot more confidence with low power momentum cars like the Miata. There is the price of admission as well.
04-29-2007, 08:26 AM
#59
Originally Posted by MoodDude
I agree with you there, as the saying goes - Acceleration is optional, braking is manditory.
Yet, I don't think any run group is going to tell the new Z06 owner that he needs to sell his car and buy a Miata in order for him to run. Since we all know that horsepower sells cars.
Yet, I don't think any run group is going to tell the new Z06 owner that he needs to sell his car and buy a Miata in order for him to run. Since we all know that horsepower sells cars.
I think the biggest problem with any person who doesn't have a reasonable amount of track time before they start running R's is the fact that the driver will think "I have R compounds - I should be faster" and thus the red-mist will start and we will find that driver in the dirt or wall sooner or later. This is the same phenominon I find on track with different cars "My Z06 should be faster than his Miata".
On a side note, I was talking to a friend about R-compounds the other day, we were discussing that by putting additional stresses on the car that it was not designed for, you should fatigue or wear out component at a much faster rate than just running street tires. Talking to someone new to track about this fact should keep them from buying them.
04-29-2007, 08:47 AM
#60
Originally Posted by tmak26b
Sure, no one is denying that neither. By the way, snow tires are even more predictable than your OEM tires. Why not go with that?
They were predictable though. Autox was a hoot with them.